Globalpaw.com Dog Forum » General Dog Discussion » Dog Advocacy & Legislation

[flyndog]

"A proposed ban on electric shock dog training devices in Wales will be re-written to make it a complete ban, says the minister who wants to bring it in." BBC NEWS | UK | Wales | Shock dog collars 'complete ban'

[Ritz459]

That's rediculous....Good grief. Are shock collars really put to that much more abuse than any other training collar?

And the mats as well? Does that mean no more scat mats? Or invisible fences? I don't even know what it means by "and leads"...there are shock leads?

Why can't people just train their dogs in peace and choose which meathod works best for their dog without the blasted government interfering? I'm sure there are much worse issues out there concerning abuse towards dogs than shock collars present.

[flyndog]

They are outlawed in many European countries. Ditto for ear cropping and tail docking.

[GSD]

I'm with you Ritz. There are far more important things to worry about than that imo. I have never met anyone using an ecollar in a way that I found detrimental to their dog. I'm sure those fools are out there, but then using an ecollar is probably one of the least offensive things they do on a regular basis.

[Ritz459]

Originally Posted by flyndog

They are outlawed in many European countries. Ditto for ear cropping and tail docking.

I think that is stupid as well. For ear cropping I can see both sides of the fence and I consider myself on the fence. I personally wouldn't have my dog's ears cropped, but I know people who have had their dogs ears cropped and their pups didn't have any issue with the procedure. (I also know people who have sworn up and down they'll never do it ever again because it was such a pain in the rear and the pup hated it.) The only breed of dog I actually prefer a crop on is the Doberman, but I don't plan to own a Dobe so I shouldn't have to worry about it. lol
I do, however, like docked tails and don't understand why docking is such a fuss as the pups are docked at an extremely young age. Can't imagine it would be any worse than having their dewclaws removed.

Either way - I think there are many more issues that need to be focused on from the government perspective. So while I personally wouldn't advocate the use of e-collars oustide the hands of a professional, I don't think outlawing them is the way to go about things either.

[Mom2Harley]

I use a electric collar on Harley for recall issues hehad. I started in May after he had a near death experience with eating something on the bog ignoring my recall.I went with a home trainer and one that trains on the lab board I have. I also educated myself and did much research before I bought one. Maybe before full out banning ,education and knowledge of a training tool or tools is needed. Collars can be bought with so many hours of training by certified trainers only . Harley just needs a vibrate reminder if he wanders, or gets selective hearing on a scent, he got the whole concept with the collar very quickly and I tell you this has saved his life. He needs to come when I call him for other safety issues as well or go to a sit or down. I have had many conversations with people opposed to them and always feel I need to defend myself even when I know how well he has done with it. I think it is people who are just ignorant to the fact when they are used correctly can be very useful in certain circumstances. I did also use it on myself and have never needed to go above the setting when collar conditioning. I also rescued a Dobie who came with his tail cropped but had natural ears and was a very handsome boy.

[Labman]

Ecollars are one more device that shouldn't be allowed to fall into the hands of fools. Not sure what the best answer is. I am biased against stupid laws.

[GSD]

one can argue that dogs, period, shouldn't be allowed into the hands of fools, or that fools shouldn't procreate, or drive, or write opinions articles, or be in public in general. The problem is you can never stop them, not with any amount of laws.

Sure a lot of people that use ecollars can train another way, but the overwhelming majority of people i have seen use ecollars have very well trained dogs and have very good relationships with them so what's the big deal?

So somebody doesn't want to use them or doesn't see a need, good, then don't use one, nobody is making you. ban everyone to stop a few fools? what are you going to do when they decide to be a fool with the leash and collar? take those away too? or a fool with a stick? or a fool with anything else that people have thought up to beat the crap out of their dogs with?

using an ecollar doesn't make somebody a cruel abusing fool, they were one of those long before they got a dog or an ecollar.

[RedWolf]

Originally Posted by GSD

I'm with you Ritz. There are far more important things to worry about than that imo. I have never met anyone using an ecollar in a way that I found detrimental to their dog. I'm sure those fools are out there, but then using an ecollar is probably one of the least offensive things they do on a regular basis.

There was this woman here in Chicago:

Chicago Reader | Who Should You Trust to Train Your Dog? The arrest of Chicago 'dog whisperer' Ami Moore for cruelty to animals raises questions about an unregulated industry. By Tasneem Paghdiwala

During Memorial Day weekend, Heather Davis had been walking her long-haired Chihuahua with her fiance in Skinner Park and saw Moore training a Bichon Frise, a tiny breed the American Kennel Club refers to as a “white powder puff of a dog.” She says she was surprised to see that it was wearing two electronic collars, one on the neck and one around the rearmost part of its waist. Moore, she recalls, was yelling at the Bichon to join a group of frolicking dogs in the middle of the park, repeatedly pressing a remote control and shoving the dog hard with her foot. “The dog was yelping, a lot. It was obviously scared—it just wanted to curl up in a ball,” she says. “It was even making my dog scared.” At one point, she says, the Bichon dashed across the park to cower under a stroller.

In January 2006, Chicago residents Aram and Liz Manyan left their dog with Moore in Lake Forest. The couple were heading to a Caribbean island for eight days and thought that Ruby—a small year-old German shepherd mix they’d found about six months before as a stray in Michigan—could benefit from some basic obedience training while she was boarding. A friend who’d done a single training session with Moore recommended her, so they checked out the Web site. “We were impressed by all the dog-whispering stuff,” says Aram, who’d seen Cesar Millan’s show a few times.

The Manyans first visited Moore’s home, a modest ranch-style house with a small fenced-in backyard, the day before they left for vacation. He says he wasn’t exactly charmed by the trainer, finding her “headstrong and opinionated,” but he wasn’t bothered enough to cancel the arrangement. He gave Moore his e-mail address and asked her to send an update about Ruby every few days.

Early in the trip Liz Manyan got an e-mail from Moore saying she’d received the balance of their payment and that Ruby was doing fine. Liz asked if they could get another update on Wednesday or Thursday. Those days came and went, and then on Saturday they got a short e-mail from Moore: “There has been a terrible accident. Ruby ran away. I went looking for her in the car. These people saw her just hanging out on someone’s lawn down the block, and then went to get her. I called her and she tried to get to me, and the man tried to hold on to her to keep her in the house. Ruby bit the man.

“If they had just left her alone on the street I would have found her quickly, but because they took her inside I was driving all over looking for her, and she became frantic to get to me.”

The e-mail also said that Lake County Animal Control had quarantined the dog—on Thursday night—and that Moore was trying to “figure out if there is any wiggle room in the procedures” so she could get Ruby.

The Manyans called Moore immediately. “She said that Ruby had jumped an eight-foot-high fence—this was a 35-pound dog with a bad leg—and escaped from her yard,” Aram says. She said, ‘Don’t come back, stay on your vacation, I’m taking care of it.’” They flew home the next day anyway, and Aram contacted the police, who put him in touch with Joan Babb and Fred Barecchia, the neighbors who’d found Ruby on the street.

The police report says that when the couple brought Ruby into their house, “the dog appeared to be getting shocked several times by an electric collar around its neck” that “shook the dog very violently. . . . Every time a shock was delivered to the dog, the dog lost all bodily function and defecated.” When they tried to take the dog back outside, the report continues, she bit Barecchia hard enough to draw blood. That’s when they called the police.

“She was very sweet, then all of a sudden she let out a giant scream,” says Babb. “She was shaking and was clearly in pain and agony.”

Before the police had responded to their call about the dog bite, Moore showed up at their house.

Babb had met Moore before. She told police that a few months earlier she’d taken in a different stray dog, then spotted Moore walking down the street as though she were looking for something. She says when she brought the dog to Moore, “he didn’t want to go back to her. When he was standing beside her, he suddenly howled and jumped in the air and fell down on the sidewalk, on his back.”

Babb told Moore that Ruby had destroyed some furnishings, defecated in the house, and bitten her husband and that she seemed to be in pain from the collar. “She made it seem like it was our fault for bringing her in,” she says. “She said the dog went crazy because she wanted to get back to her.” Babb turned Ruby over, and Moore left with the dog before the police arrived. When the responding officer contacted Moore, he noted in his report that she said “the owners of the dog were out of the country and could not be reached. She also stated that they would be back in a week or two, but was not sure.” The Lake County Health Department bite report says Moore “stated the owners are in a jungle in Costa Rica & cannot be reached.”

Aram points out that Moore knew their schedule and had already used e-mail to contact them twice. He couldn’t understand why Ruby was under rabies quarantine, since they’d provided her with the dog’s up-to-date vaccination records. And he was surprised to learn from the Lake Forest health department that Moore had been using an electronic collar on Ruby. “We thought [the training] would be a noninvasive methodology, going along with the whole dog-whispering thing,” he says.

Ruby had lost five pounds and was shedding profusely when she came home from quarantine. The Manyans confronted Moore, but she refused to refund the $1,500 the couple had paid for training and boarding. She did offer to finish training Ruby, but they didn’t take her up on it.

“It was a case of buyer beware,” Aram says. “I didn’t know what to ask about or what to look for when we picked her. I had no experience with kenneling, training, or dog trainers before this.” When he actually read the contract he’d signed before boarding Ruby, he says, he noted several clauses protecting Moore against liability and decided not to sue. “It simply wasn’t worth my time,” he says.

Ruby, Aram says, has since recovered and gone through some positive-reinforcement training. “Thankfully she was young enough that it didn’t have a lasting impact on her,” he says.

Moore declined to comment on the Manyans’ story.

[Sophie45]

I couldn't agree more with your post, Harley-I have almost the exact same situation with my Sophie. There is a small strip of land next to my house-it's about 1/10 of a mile long and about 300 feet wide and runs along a fairly busy street which I would NEVER ever feel comfortable letting her play fetch and run around if I didn't have the reassurance of her ecollar. I had her trained by a professional dog trainer (which is IMO the only way you should introduce a dog to a shock collar) three years ago, she wears it daily when we play fetch and I probably have had to "zap" her maybe 10-15 times total (on very low voltage)-just having the collar on makes her very aware she really has to listen-it just keeps her accountable.

If it weren't for her having an ecollar, Sophie wouldn't be able to run and play fetch every day because honestly, I wouldn't be able to drive her to a park every single day but it's very convenient to just walk 3 houses down and have the reassurance I can keep her safe AND well exercised!

How anyone could think that by having a well-trained dog on an ecollar that allows them off-leash freedom (that otherwise could be unsafe and unpredictable) is cruel is ridiculous.

[Dirky47]

Shock collars are not really bad if you know how to used it in a nice way. The only problem here is, people abuse its usage.

[paolo4930]

A proposed ban on electric shock dog training devices in Wales will be re-written to make it a complete ban, says the minister who wants to bring it in.