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[Trinity3205]

I have a Chi chi puppy that is about 3 months old. I have had him since he was about 8 weeks? This is my first small dog but I have had a Black lab/Rot cross and a shepard/??? cross before. That is my only experiances with dogs but both of my big dogs were well adjusted and good dogs. I had them since one was 4 months and one was 8 months and trained them both. Both shelter dogs. This is the youngest pup I have taken on as well.

I prefer bigger dogs as a rule but I live in an apartment now however and need a dog that can just be paper trained since outside isnt really an option here. He seems to be getting it and will do great for a few days and then seem to relapse and go wherever he wants for a few days. He gets praised heavily every time he does it right and I try to watch him like a hawk and supervise constantly, place him on the paper after he has eaten etc. I will make him stay on it til he potties if I know he should have to go and then praise him tons and play with him.

When he misses however, I have always been taught to clap or stomp and go get the puppy quickly and place him on the paper where he should have went....This is NOT working with him however. He becomes terrified when I try to go quickly pick him up to place him on the mat and will cower, run and scream like he is about to be eaten by a predator... Im very upset and I know his screaming is likely annoying the neighbors. Not a big point overall,but things for me to consider as a tenant.

Im not sure what to do. I cant just let him go right in front of me on that carpet and not on the paper, but when I have to pick him up for going in the wrong spot and he is scared and screaming, we go though several days of redeveloping a trust where I can pick him up anytime without him crying even when he is going in the right place. As soon as he relapses and goes somewhere he shouldnt, we start all over again with him being terrified.

I finally just started putting him in the laundry room with a pee pad and check on him (tho he still will be afraid when I open the door) till he has done his business and then let him out with me to play. Sometimes he is in there awhile but its less tramatic for both of us at this point. I feel like im doing something wrong. The fear seems to last and last with him despite me trying to be very positive with him with food or toys. When I go to pick him up he will still be fearful sometimes.

Do you all think this is a small puppy thing he will grow out of? A breed puppy issue from being so tiny? (He is about 2 lbs right now so tiny to me) He is terrified of big dogs also and will scream if they come around him, even in his crate. He is extremely vocal about his fear but not really a barker when happy. He is quite normal to my perception in all other ways except this fear/cower and ear splitting screaming when trying to reinforce where to potty. He doesnt get spanked for going in the wrong spot either.

Im very upset that he is upset and afraid of me when Im just trying to do the right thing here. I want to socialize him to any dog he might come around and I DONT want to have the snappy yappy small dog syndrome with him. I have tried to treat him like a normal sized dog in regards to training and obediance. I do let him sleep with me tho when he is not fearful of being picked up. Otherwise he goes in his crate for the night.

Im pretty familer with basic dog training methods, but Im totally stumped here.

The dog is healthy and vetted and has no medical issues. He was the biggest, most outgoing and friendly pup of the litter which is why I picked him but seems to obviously have small dog fear issues despite my best efforts. His mother is a lovely friendly sweet submissive dog with no fear issues that I have ever seen.

Help?

[britishbandit]

Try doing the same thing but without the clap or stomp. It's sounds to me like that's what is scaring him if at other times you can pick him up without him screaming/cowering. Just say "No", pick him up and place him on the paper.

[Carrie]

Don't use punishment of any kind on your dog. He's distrusting you and that will ruin your relationship with him. You do not need punishment to house break your puppy.

What you need is extreme diligence with your supervision. And that is the hard part.

Don't do newspapers. Take him outside to a designated spot. Take him out every hour on the hour and in addition, after he eats, drinks, plays, naps. When he goes outside, the instant he finishes, give him a high value treat and praise. Just as he's going, give a cue word, like "go pee" and "go poo." Don't say it if you're not positive he's about to go or you'll miss the association between the cue and response. Later, once that association has been made, you can use it to help him get on with it.

Free time, where he can be loose in the house, (but still with supervision) ONLY happens on an empty bladder, right after he's gone outside. If it's nearing the time that you're going to take him on his next trip out, he is in a crate. Period. No free time on a full bladder or even half full. Do not let him go in the house. You must prevent that. It's up to you, not him.

Anytime he goes in the house, that spot IS the proper place to go in his mind. The scent of past pee tells him that this is the toilet. Clean up with Nature's Miracle or like enzymatic cleaner.

If you punish him for peeing inside, even scolding with a "no"....frightening him with stomping your feet, he learns that it is scary to go in front of you and will tend to hold it even when outside on a leash. He'll hold it till he comes back in and may hide it behind furniture. He'll learn that peeing inside is okay, just not in front of you. He'll learn that perhaps this one spot is not safe, but maybe another room will do. He's not being naughty or stubborn. He's learning the way dogs learn. If you do catch him about to go, simply interrupt him with a normal speaking voice, "eh" (if it doesn't frighten him) and scoop him up and take him out. Watch for circling, restlessness, sniffing. Those are signs he needs to go. If every hour doesn't seem to do the trick, take him out every 1/2 hour. Whatever is necessary to prevent inside accidents.

You can make a log. Write down the times he eats and drinks anything and the intervals between those things and his eliminating. Learn his schedule and that can help you later to eliminate unnecessary trips outside.

If you are sufficiently disciplined in your routine, he should get onto it in a matter of weeks. Be sure to reinforce his going outside lavishly and prevent anymore accidents inside. This way he'll learn that going outside is the ONLY way to fly.

The trouble with tiny dogs is that owners get lax, thinking in the back of their minds that if there's an accident, it's only the size of a nickle so no big deal. And they have tiny bladders, even for their size. So it's the owners, not the breed.

If you want to prevent a snappy dog, do not ever put him on the defensive by scaring him, punishing him or confusing him. Use good timing in reinforcing behaviors you like. Watch for good behavior and reinforce it with something the dog loves.

You can't treat him just like a big dog. He is not. Chihuahuas are so tiny and they know it. They tend to be a little submissive when big, giant humans are looming over them. Teach him that the things that scare him are good things by associating them with high value treats and gentle praise. Go slowly and find some smaller, tolerant dogs for him to play with for now if the big ones terrify him. Gradually, you can build on that. Teach him some obedience tricks which help with confidence. Google Clicker Solutions. There is a ton of good info on there. Chihuahuas tend to be sensitive little dogs and you must never use harshness with them. Control resources. Teach him a few things and have him do something for you before he gets what he wants. That is how to get behavior you like. Prevent unwanted behavior by setting up the environment in such away as to promote success....where he's less likley to fail. Go slowly, gently and learn some ways to teach him things in a fun, non-threatening fashion.

[Sentry]

We have a 5lb chihuahua and a 200 lb plus mastiff. You can not treat them the same way. A chihuahua is a tiny dog and their world is huge. Our chihuahua is not babied but we have to be much more gentle with our voices with him. They are very smart little dogs and clicker training is a very good idea with them. Your local pet store will have one with a book, i would go get one right away. Pick up soft treats and break them into tiny peices. Get puppy pads and treat him every time he goes on them. Eventually move the pad to wear you want him to go outside. It's gonna take time be patient.

[Punkygirl0101]

I have an adult chihuahua (3 pounds) who was abused and neglected her entire life until we got her (We have had her a little over 2 years and she is about 10 years old.)

I have to take her out every 2 hours because she STILL has house training issues. It has been a battle to potty train her, mainly because she was fear aggressive when we first got her, and we were more concerned with working with getting her to trust us, then we were with potty training her. So she was allowed to go inside on paper, but most of the time she just went wherever. It took about a year of working with her to get her to trust us, so we have been working on housetraining ever since.

Other than when I take her out to potty (Every 2 hours we go out in the front) she doesn't go outside. She spends the majority of her time under the covers in her bed, or on the couch..or my bed.

You need to be very gentle with your pup, because to your puppy you are a giant who is stomping and yelling at her. That is scary! I am also not a believer in negative reinforcement. DO NOT make any loud noises and scare her. That is NOT a good start for a puppy, it will only make problems worse!

I also don't think its a good idea to start her off going inside. Paper training is teaching a dog its okay to go inside. You need to start taking her outside, and teaching that she should ONLY go to the bathroom outside. Or you could end up with issues like myself.

[Carrie]

Punkygirl. I love your posts. They show your intense compassion and intelligence that you have with your dogs. I just wanted to catch something here. I know what you mean though.

I am also not a believer in negative reinforcement.

I suspect you mean that you're not a believer in positive punishment....adding something nasty to the dog; hitting, stomping, scolding etc. There is soooo much fall out and bad, bad side effects to a lot of punishment.

Negative reinforcement is used a lot by "positive reinforcement" type trainers. Negative reinforcement means that you're taking away (subtracting) something the dog likes from his environment....like say, dog pulls on the leash. You stop and stand still, taking away the forward movement that he was enjoying. It's a way for them to learn which in a way is "punishing" but there is less wear and tear and fewer ill side effects. It is something that assists with the dog's learning. When he gives you slack in the leash, you add positive reinforcment again by resuming the walking again. (the thing he wants to do)

Negative.... when you're talking about dog training doesn't mean bad. It means subtracting or taking away. Positive means adding something. Reinforcement increases behavior. Punishment decreases behavior. So, positive reinforcement is adding something that increases behavior, (raises the liklihood of it repeating in the future). Positive punishment is adding something that decreases behavior. Negative reinforcement is removing or subtracting the good thing in order to increase the behavior you want. Negative punishment is removing a punisher which is already existing. For instance, a choke collar is tightening steadily on a dog's neck. Now you release it and give the poor dog a break. That's negative punishment. The punisher, the painful thing stopped.

Anyhow, you're so right that attacking dogs teaches them nothing except to fear humans. They ARE animals after all and do not have human brains with human cognitive powers.

[MissFitz]

It does sound like you are on the right track. He is only 3 months old, so you have a ways to go yet. But I bet leaving out the loud noises will help. Just a calm pick up and put on the new paper should work.
Carrie, excellent explanation of positive and negative punishment by the way. Some time I need to pick your brain on how dogs correct each other, but don't want to get off-topic here.

[Ritz459]

I think the point of saying a "no!" or a clap of the hands in house breaking is to startle the to dog out of peeing...and obviously, that is way over board for your pup!

Does anybody have any advice for her about swooping in to pick the dog up to carry it to its designated spot? She said that her picking the dog up is also cause for a screaming fit.

The only thing I can think of is to crate train - like what you are doing with the laundry room. Chloe lived in our back hallway most of her puppy hood because of housebreaking problems. She wasn't trumatized from it, the family was happy that there wasn't a dog peeing on the new carpet every 15 mintues, and Chloe learned very, very well to go potty outside and now I can trust her loose downstairs unsupervised for two or three hours. Probably even longer, but I don't want to leave her unsupervised that long.

Although as MissFitz said, perhaps if you stop making loud scary noises, being scooped up won't prove to be such a bad thing.

[Carrie]

Does anybody have any advice for her about swooping in to pick the dog up to carry it to its designated spot? She said that her picking the dog up is also cause for a screaming fit.

The screaming fit is probably due to having made an association between being swooped and scooped and a scary scolding or startling or even just the nervous, desperation of the moment. Fear has been tied together with being picked up. Being picked up, even if it's quick and sudden needs to be associated with a happy, comfortable thing. I recommend being very calm about it at first and setting up situations....not waiting for interrupting the pee mistakes. Set up situations at other times where you are just hanging out and have some very tasty, tiny treats. Go to your pup and give a treat as you calmly pick him up. Set him down, wait a few seconds and repeat. Make it a loving or playful time. Do something he likes when you pick him up. Do this several times throughout the day.

Once he's comfortable with that, pick him up just a little quicker or a tad more suddenly. Keep the treats flowing.

Picking him up should never be asssociated with punishement. Punishment causes all kinds of side effects. You never know how a particular dog is going to react....his sensitivity level, his sensitivity level on that particular day. (maybe he's already had a lot of stress earlier and now he's reached his threhold and things affect him more than they might at a different time) It's much better to use methods which don't need punishment.

Interrupting the peeing with some kind of sound is fine as long as it doesn't startle him. But he does sound like a nervous, sensitive dog. The best thing to do is to prevent him from feeling the need to go inside by taking him out more often and using a crate when he's not just emtpied his bladder and otherwise supervising him very, very closely. Prevention.

[Urielle]

In the OP's defense, the clapping and stomping is not necessarily a punishment, but a means of startling the puppy into stopping its behaviour immediately, until it can be moved to the appropriate place to eliminate.

I would suggest keeping the pup on a leash with you at all times. When you interrupt the peeing behaviour (maybe just use a "no" or an "ah!"), *lead* him to the mat rather than swoop in to pick him up and carry him. This teaches him where to walk to go pee, and also avoids the complication of having a huge person looming in to grab him, when he's trying to perform a natural function.

[Carrie]

Urielle, I agree that clapping or stomping is not necessarily a harsh punishment. This dog, by the OP's description is very sensitive and is cowering in response to the stomping. Therefore, that is too harsh for this dog. Most dogs, if stomping has been associated with anger or scoldings or physical punishment, then the stomping is going to be very intimidating. If stomping has always been associated with a game, such as how I play "monsters" with my dogs, then stomping is viewed as a cool thing. Dogs learn by association. So, it depends on that and their sensitivity level. Some are very soft.

Technically, if something is added to the dog's environment (clapping or stomping) and it stops a behavior, it is positive punishment. Positive....adding. Punishment...decreasing a behavior. If there is a way to interrupt the peeing without startling, scaring or causing the dog fear, then by all means, try to interrupt the behavior. But it shouldn't become necessary at all because the need to pee indoors should not even come up if the dog is taken outside frequently enough and crated or supervised adequately in the first place.

The leading the dog out is a good idea as far as not being so quick an action. However, if a dog is already piddling, it is more likely that he'll continue piddling all the way to the front door. Sometimes when they're picked up, they stop mid stream....not always though. Again....prevention. Take puppy out more often.

And counter-condition him to enjoying being picked up and gradually to enjoying being picked up abruptly or quickly. It can come to mean "good news" to be scooped up if handled correctly.

[britishbandit]

Didn't anyone else read this part?

Originally Posted by Trinity3205

need a dog that can just be paper trained since outside isnt really an option here.

Ok so maybe it isn't too clear, but "not really an option" could mean a few things. Could be the 5th floor for all we know, may or may not have a balcony...etc...

I don't personally usually recommend paper training a dog either, but with potty training you have to be quick to catch them when having an accident, and be able to get them outside just as fast. If it isn't an option then......... well sometimes paper training is the better way to go, rather than say rushing the dog down flights of stairs to get outside.

[Trinity3205]

Thank you for all the insight folks. No, Unfortunatly there is no outside potty option here which is why I opted for a small dog. It is pee pads or my floor and I prefer he use the pads.

As I said, he really is getting the clue well for a yourgster. I have alreayd been experimenting with what interrupts a mistake pee or poo and how to get to him and place him on the mat without him overreacting. I do understand that a small dogs requires less "energy" from me to get a reaction than a big dog. What I meant is, I will not coddle him or overlook things because he IS small. I will require the same respectful behavior from him as a large dog. He doesnt jump on me without being allowed and so forth.

I am learning where this energy line is with him. I have horses so I usually have a very big "alpha" energy I project though more than sound when training them and I think it is communicating though to him more than I realized even with me trying to tone it way down. I usually use a mild clap now with a vocal 'hey!" which seems to be a bit better but he still will overreact sometimes. When he does overreact and I stall have to go pick him up and place him on the mat, there is screaming whan I go to pick him up. I dont know if I even CAN fit that.

I definatly set him up to no have accidents as best as I can. He is crated during the day 4 days a week but still messes in the crate too sometimes over night or while im at work. Usually pee pee which I beleve just has to do with a small bladder. When he makes mistakes, I dont know that I could do any different. I watch for sniffing but he is ALWAYS sniffing and is so very hard to differ between curious, looking for crumbs and I gotta go NOW...Very hard to read actually and Im pretty good at it usually.

I am hoping he grows out of this as he gets older and more confident. I know he loves me and trusts me for the most part already. He seems to be a clever little dog so far despite being so young. I just wish I knew how to stay the potty training course and not have him overreact. We can go for several days with no incedent than then once there is one, there wil lbe several in a row usually and the scaredness.

Maybe that makes it more clear...Its hard to describe a puppy lol...

[Carrie]

I forgot that you lived way up high in a building. Well....lots of people use pee pads successfully. There's nothing wrong with that. I'd definitely try to counter condition him to enjoying being picked up instead of being fearful. Do that exercise every day several times. Prove to him that picking him up means that it's good news. Great things are about to happen. Then as you go, when you have to pick him up to get him on the pad, he won't mind so much. Are you reinforcing him the second he finishes going on the pee pad? With a high value treat? You might even give him a verbal marker as he's just arriving onto the pee pad. Have you looked into clicker training? It would be very helpful with this because you could make it more clear to him just precisely what it is that you want. He's a bit confused as to how close he is to be or some other factor that we're not thinking about. He's still guessing in other words. It could be too, that by picking him up and putting him on the pad, he is not learning to walk over and walk right onto the pad himself. He may need to go through that whole sequence himself in order to learn. That's where clicker training and shaping the behavior would be very beneficial. You could practice him getting onto the pee pad at other times throughout the day, not just when he has to pee. Then when it comes time to his having to pee, he may get onto the pad more completely. You'll just have to reinforce him heavily when he does pee on it as opposed to the reinforcer you use when he just walks onto it. Save the higher value treats for peeing on the pad.

We can go for several days with no incedent than then once there is one, there wil lbe several in a row usually and the scaredness.

He may be submissive peeing and not having a regular accident at all. If that's the case, if he's treated super gently, nothing frightening him, he should out grow that. He won't potty train himself. But submissive or excitement peeing is something else. He should get no reaction at all if he's just peeing while he's scared. Just clean up with Nature's Miracle or some other enzymatic cleaner. That's important to get the scent out of the house. That stuff is suppose to get it out so the dog doesn't smell it or at least not much.

[Trinity3205]

I have a clicker I use with the horses. Never did really make it work as well for me that other people seem to do. I get the "bridging" and so forth but it was not as good IMO for horses than plain ol good training.

He is def not submissive peeing when he has an accident although he will leak if he gets too scared or excited ( such as comming out of the crate after a long time) He is sniffing around and peeing or pooing not on the mat when he has a real accident. I just have a very hard time telling what sniffing is what with him. He is very spastic lol and will look like he is about to go when he is actually looking for a toy or crumbs or whatever and will not actually potty for another hour. Very hard to read.