How do you use positive reinforcement training?

[Gerald]

I have been reading a lot on GP and other websites about training, especially positive based training. The questions I am left with however are how do you not correct or correct whatever the case may be when your dog is doing something you don't want your dog to do. So I was hoping some of our resident trainers could chime in on a couple of scenarios and tell me what they would do.

1:

You are trying to walk your dog on a leash, and your dog starts to pull. How do you deal with that? How do you communicate to the dog what it is that YOU want the dog to do and eventually stops the pulling altogether?


2:

You don't want your dog to jump on the couch or on people. How do you correct that? You tell your dog "off", but they still jump on the couch and or jump up on people.


Let's start with these two; I'm really interested in learning about how to correct without punishment, and how to motivate your dog to do what it is you want and to cease other unwanted behaviors. It seems like in general it's easy to bench race this idea, but how do you put it in to practice? What are the techniques?

[annie_so_pink]

Um...I'm no expert on this stuff or anything but I just got tthis video called "Train your Dog, the positive, gentle method" with Nicole Wilde and Laura Boerhenne and it tells alot about trining with positive reinforcement. It tells how to teach basic obeidence, solve basic behaviour problems, and some extras too. For example, if your dog is always jumping up on you when you see him/her, it says when your dog jumps up on you to turn away from the dog, fold your arms, and do not look at the dog. It then says that your dog can do one of two things, (1) sit down and wait to be greeted or (2) have four paws on the ground...when your dog does that they say to clamly greet your dog. If you do this so much, your dog will learn to not jump up, and just sit and wait to be greeted because all the dog really want sis your attention and if you use other methods and tell him/her not to jump, you ARE giving your dog attention even if all you tell him/her "no",then the dog is still getting your attention and so will be mor likely to do it again. I am not sure if this is what you were asking but I hope it helps...the video is really helpful and I definately recommend it...Hope that helps!

[sammy]

I'm certainly not a trainer but I am training my dogs
pulling on leash:
I started by teaching my dog "get in" which is get in heel position. I started with him sitting across from me and used a treat lure to get him into position. My hand signal for "get in" still looks like a fast miniturized version of it. Very quickly I had a dog who knew how to get into position, so then I worked on heeling in the house. When my dog forged ahead I stopped said "too bad!... get in" and got him back in position. In order for me to start walking he had to be in position and be looking up at me. As soon as he looks up I say "yes!!! let's go" or whatever my walking/ heeling word is. This process went on until he realised if he wants to keep walking he needs to be in heel position. It's sort of like the kids game red light green light. Dog forges ahead=red light! dog stays in position or gets back in position= green light. The tough part for me was learning to walk a straight line while looking down at my dog , praising and or treating him for being in position. Lots of people teach heeling using a clicker-- I like that idea - I was just too novice to walk, watch my dog, think, click, remember my words !! lol
l
jumping up:
When my dog would go to jump up I would quickly turn away from him and ,make sure he got ZERO reinforcement for jumping up: no hands on him, not speaking to him , NOTHING. I would wait for him to sit and then immediately praise him and give him attention. He learned that sitting meant attention , jumping up = me leaving or turning away from him. Some dogs are way easier to train out of this than others.

staying off the couch:
With this new dog I just used my voice as a correction or moved the dog off the couch and as soon as she sits she gets attention. She got the idea. With Sammy I actually taught an "off" command that means back away from the object or back away and sit or lie down- whichever you like.
A wait command comes in handy too. It's nice to be able to have the dogs sit at the door and wait--helps when the pizza guy comes, guests arrive etc.

When I first got into dogs I read everything I could get my hands on that came highly recommended by my trainer. If you haven't already, you might want to check out "Parenting your dog" by Trish King, "The other end of the leash" Patricia MacConnel (sp?) "Culture Clash" Jean Donaldson or any of the puppy training / dog training books by Ian Dunbar. Those are some of my favs

[Carrie]

You are trying to walk your dog on a leash, and your dog starts to pull. How do you deal with that? How do you communicate to the dog what it is that YOU want the dog to do and eventually stops the pulling altogether?

You've already gotten great advice. I'll just add that what helps in general with everything is creating a very good, strong, bond with your dog and a definite place to fit in the family. When you are respected and the dog likes to do whatever his "job" is, then you are ahead of the game in all you do with your dog.

When a dog pulls, it is because of a couple of things. It might be that he feels he needs to lead you. But more often than not, I think it's simply that the dog is just flat out eager as heck to get out there and explore and have fun and see the big, wide world. But, the dog needs to respect you while having fun. LOL. I find attention giving exercises are important....showing the dog how to give you his attention when not on a walk and then practicing that in low distraction areas while on a walk. Making lots of turns, stops whenever he is nearing the end of the leash or getting out ahead of you. It keeps him guessing which way you're going to go and teaches him to stay with you. As long as he's staying with you, you should reward him with praise and treats...every few steps until he gets good, then you can skip a few times of treats. Keep him working and trying to earn the reward. Getting some of the zoomies out ahead of time where he's off leash in your fenced yard or other safe place is helpful.

Basically with any behavior you want to discourage, finding out what it is the dog is getting out of it....what the payoff is, is the first step and then removing that is needed. But then, you need to give the dog an alternative behavior...what DO you want instead? Show the dog and reward. Make it so it behoves the dog to do what you want. There should be something in it for him. Never give a command if you can't enforce it, but be sure to reward when he complies until it becomes almost a habit.

You don't want your dog to jump on the couch or on people. How do you correct that? You tell your dog "off", but they still jump on the couch and or jump up on people.

You've already been given great info on this. Again, just to reiterate...don't give a payoff for jumping and reward for staying off of you. If you catch the dog just before he's about to jump (he hasn't yet, but you think he's about to) give an alternative..."sit." Praise then. If he's already jumped, give no payoff...no attention of any kind. When he's back on all fours or sitting, that's when he earns what he wants. With the couch thing....he needs to be shown to get off and shown where he can lie down instead. Maybe a dog bed on the floor. Take him to that and reward (praise, treat, toys) Be consistant and he'll get the message to stay off the couch.

Whenever you want to discourage a behavior, it's important to show the dog a contrast.....first you distract or move the dog away from the no no and right away you find something he can do instead and praise for that. You can't do this, but you can do that. LOL.

In general dogs/puppies need exercise and need to be kept busy a good deal of the time. If they get bored, they tend to get into mischief.

[flyndog]

Good advice, Carrie.

Technically, dogs pull because we pull back. It's called thigmotaxis. It's a reflex in dogs to repond by pulling in the opposite direction. That's why it's important to keep the leash slack. Turning, going in the opposite direction, speeding up, slowing down, getting the dog to turn his head or body toward you in attention all work to keep the leash slack. Some dogs pull with little opposition and some have a higher threshold. Those with low threshhold make good sled dogs!

Do you ever let your dog on the couch or let him jump up on you? If you do, then it is harder for him to learn "Off". When people want to let their dog on the furniture *sometimes*, I suggest they teach an invitation to get on the couch. Unless you pat the seat of the couch, for instance, the dog is not allowed on the couch. Unless you have a special Jump On Me invitation, the dog is not allowed to jump up. Guests are good at sabotaging this and trainer Pat Miller invites her dogs to jump on her by kneeling on the floor and tapping her shoulders. Your average guest won't do that and the dog won't get confusing body language signals.

Don't be too quick to fade the food reinforcements or switch from a continuous schedule of reinforcement for the "Off". It just takes some time. He's still a pup.

I'm a real Nicole Wilde fan! She tells me I make her head swell, but I do like her, she's funny, and she has great advice. She's a real expert with wolves and wolf-dogs. I haven't seen the video, but I'm sure Annie_so_pink is right about how good it is.

Kit

[Carrie]

Thanks Kit.

Oh yeah!!! I forgot about that....that's a good idea too! Teaching stuff like that on command so he learns that he can do it, but only when you tell him. I guess I kind of do that with my Chi's. I hate it when Jose jumps around when I'm about to set his food down, so I ask him to sit/wait till I give the "Ok." But I encourage him to jump up sometimes for a treat because I want him to learn to dance on command. So, I'll hold a treat up and say, "dancy, dancy." I just don't practice very much with that lately cuz his hind leg is bothering him. But Chuli can do that. So, they can learn that there's a time and place for some things. LOL.

[Sheltiemama]

When walking and the dog starts to pull on the leash he wants to get somewhere. Stop dead and stand for a few seconds and then start walking backwards away from the direction he wants to go. When he stops pulling on the leash walk up to him, put him in a sit (heel) position and start walking, repeat as often as necessary. I call this make like a tree and reverse.

When he jumps on the couch say off, wait till he complies and treat him. When he jumps on people say off and when he complies treat him. Continue till he jumps off the couch and comes to you to get the treat, then start weaning the treats away and just give him praise. Do the same for the off when jumping up on people.

[Gerald]

This all gives me some new ideas and things to try with Rocky. I guess what I am trying to learn more about is the positive training theory and philosophy and how to implement those in everyday situations.

So what would the traditional methods be? I'd like to know so I could understand the contrast between them.

[D.Schäferhund]

If you can borrow a clickerbook, that has usually a good descripion of positive reinforcement in it, you don't have to use a clicker, but it explaines prettygood the concept.

The traditional methodes, hm that is usally refered to the force methods. training over avoidance, avoidance of pain. to put it in a good contrast for you. wich is not tottally correct either. but it gives u an idea.
not everybody used force to train their dogs, positive reiinforcement is not that new....

[Raised By Wolves]

Originally Posted by Gerald

This all gives me some new ideas and things to try with Rocky. I guess what I am trying to learn more about is the positive training theory and philosophy and how to implement those in everyday situations.

So what would the traditional methods be? I'd like to know so I could understand the contrast between them.

Depends on how you define "traditional"!

If I were to describe the "traditional" methods I learned and used when I was twelve, this would be different than the more "adversive" and/or forced based training that can sometimes be referred to as "traditional".

These "other" methods were originally designed for guard, military, and police work, and should not be used by the average dog owner with their pet, unless you go into advanced obedience work and are shown the correct way to use them by someone who really knows what they are doing AND who is not a "brute" by nature.

Based on the methods I learned when I was young, this type of training uses lots of praise, a verbal correction, and leash work. I never was big on leash "pops" myself, more like just enough movement of the leash to get your point across. Generally treats were not used for obedience work, back then.

Keep in mind, the techniques I use today have been modified from this training method, and begin with an understanding of canine psychology, communication, and establishment of the leadership position through the action and reaction sequence.

What I probably would have done when I was twelve, would be have the dog on the leash, and if they pulled, I would have said "no", and given enough of a tug on the leash, to get the dog to stop pulling and pay attention, and then praise them for compliance. I was taught not to use steady pressure, as it encourages what Kit described with that reeeally big word.

Well, that's what a traditional method I used along time ago, would be like.

[thetervduo]

To really learn how to use positive training methods (clicker training; Tellington Touch method of training; luring (classical and operant conditioning) you could join some lists: Yahoo groups "clickersolutions" is a great place to start, as well as go to www.karenpryor.com to learn more and gather books on it. To me and my professional training methods, positive training equals no force, no fear, just results. This applies no matter what dog you are training and flows into reactive dog training as well, however as with any training method it takes experience and knowing what to do when and which tools to use for which dog and which dog/owner teams. There is really no cookie cutter for every situation.

Let's take a look at your requests:

1:

You are trying to walk your dog on a leash, and your dog starts to pull. How do you deal with that? How do you communicate to the dog what it is that YOU want the dog to do and eventually stops the pulling altogether?

--------
Pulling is probably the "hardest" behavior to get rid of....we are slower than dogs, the dog wants to get from point A to point B and is used to doing it quickly. Add the human element and we have water skiing material. So getting your dog to focus (not on point B, but on you) and to show him what you want, as well as to help him understand that walking is a privelege and at some point he might be rewarded with off lead play.

Commitment: Never allow pulling.
Training: Start in no distraction environment. Home. - Condition clicker (click equals treat). In the beginning be lavish with treats, eventually you'll fade these out. According to Jean Donaldson's Culture Clash, dogs do not work to please us. Give them a reason to work for you, just as your boss gives you a paycheck or incentive. Once the clicker is conditioned, click and treat every time dog is close to you. Stand still. If dog wanders away wait...when he returns, click and treat. Be like a pez dispenser in the beginning. Soon the dog will be wanting to be close. Then toss a treat out as you walk and when
dog returns to you (now taking a couple of steps forward) click and treat. Walk in a straight line at first, then add turns etc. Add leash, put leash around waist and there are a number of things before actually going for a walk.

To take control of the walk requires leadership and the cues (sit, wait/stay, come, heel). If the lead is taut the walk ends. The dog soon learns that no walk occurs with a tight lead.

In Tellington Touch method of training you do leading exercises with do using two points of contact (a harness and a collar; a harness with a balance contact; a harness and a halti (suggested for major pullers)). First you work through cavelletti and labyrinth exercises to get the dog to focus and for both of your to walk in conert as a team. You repeat this, add distractions and then take it to the road.

In all cases if the dog is ready to "go for a walk" the lead will be loose. It takes work, commitment and to always end on success so dog can progress from that point on. It will be harder to train a dog who has been a wanderer and puller for most of its life than to start a puppy off on a good start with a no pull sequence.

You will find many more positive ways to train and should choose the method that is working for you and your dog.

Diane and the terv duo

2:

You don't want your dog to jump on the couch or on people. How do you correct that? You tell your dog "off", but they still jump on the couch and or jump up on people.


Let's start with these two; I'm really interested in learning about how to correct without punishment, and how to motivate your dog to do what it is you want and to cease other unwanted behaviors. It seems like in general it's easy to bench race this idea, but how do you put it in to practice? What are the techniques?

[Malinois]

I'd suggest you read up on some operant conditioning information to understand dog training theory.

Basicly in operant conditioning you have positive and negative reinforcment (which increase response) and positive and negative punishment (which decrease response).

You have been given some suggestions which attempt to combine negative punishment (to decrease the response you don't want) with positive reinforcement (to increase the response you want).

Just remember its the dog's perception of the method, not your own, thats important.

[Gerald]

Thanks again for the posts so far. I am working with Rocky currently in the house with the leash. Outside I have two little tree's that we do figure eights around as well.

As for the couch thing, I am taking a two prong apporach:

1. I put a treat or something on the couch that he likes, while I have a leash on him. If and when he goes for it, I tell him off, and prevent him from going on the couch with the leash. At that point when he is away from the couch, I treat him once he sits. My trainer advised this method so he learns the off command, and eventually I can use this for anything that I want him to avoid.

2. I purchased a kennel mat yesterday and I am going to teach him to, go to his mat. So when he jumps on the couch, I tell him off, direct him to the mat, have him do a sit or down, and treat him/praise him.

I'm also working w/ the clicker and the mat. We have done some clicker stuff before so the clicker is "charged" so to say ... I started out w/ liver treats yesterday and later moved to cheese. I would click for anything touching the mat, a paw, him walking over it etc. Then I kneeled down later in our session and kinda lured him w/ my body posture to sit near the mat. C/T. Finally I got him to sit on it and wait a few seconds. C/T, then I would wait while he was sitting, and he would do a down, C/T.

I plan on doing a lot more work w/ the mat b/c it's one of my goals to eventually tell him, "Go to your Mat", and he goes there and stays until I release him.

What do you think of these methods??

[thetervduo]

I am so happy you are going to help your dog learn using positive methods. The theory behind positive learning can be complicated and terms of study, i.e. operant conditioning, classical conditioning, R plus, R minus, P plus and P minus in the beginning just confuse the dog owner. I hope you will find a great clicker trainer, who will simplify the complexities so you can later study these if you get involved in doing so. What positive training does is develops a "thinking dog", a happy, willing to learn and perform dog. As Susan Ailsby says, the upsidie of positive training is the dog will offer behaviors. The down side is the dog will offer behaviors. Again channeling all this in the right direction is what is ultimately important. Also be careful, some say they are positive trainers, but may use questionable methods. There was an article on "You are a Positive Trainer If" on www.behaviorlogic.com, I think you might still find it there.

Also, get Click for Joy, Melissa Alexander which explains the finer points and terms of clicking success. There are so many wonderful books out on this topic, as well as going to the Karen Pryor website, www.clickertraining.com or www.karenpryor.com to get really involved with your dog.

Good luck to you....it is wonderful to see your concern to train your dog the positive way.

PS - My pic of Kody learning to walk with two points of contact....he looks horrible. This was when we first got him: he had demodectic mange, as you can see in the photo (went away in 3 weeks on RMB diet), and he was a wanderer, puller, jumper, no recall, little training...whew. Today his coat shines, he smells great, he is a thinker, he pulls for search and rescue only, he can go off lead and has a great recall. Still likes to jump a little cause he is so very friendly but four on the floor gets rewarded. Thought I'd add that as there is hope for dogs with commitment, consistentance, persistance and patience. Kindness does work.

Diane and the terv duo

[Gerald]

When it comes to clicker training I really enjoy it. The thing is I am a newbie, and really don't know what I am doing. I wish I could see someone shape a behavior; I think that would help a lot with MY training

The trainer I am working with currently is a clicker trainer. We haven't gotten in to much clicker stuff. She gave me one of Karen's books to read, and we went over a few things about clicker training. The main thing I have a problem with is trying to work the clicker, leash, treats etc. all at the same time.

As far as leash work, she said that when walking yo