Advise needed on positive training

[feinwerkbau]

Contrararily, I do have an open mind and despite my almost omni-belief in e-collars, I will eagerly practise positive reinforcement.

I am taking care of a very timid mongrel who has been on treats training.

She's very timid, and has generally been given the run of everything at home.

After spending a few hours with her, I realise that she has either fear aggression (warnings and snapping at this stage) tendencies - she will growl or snap or possession protection tendencies when it comes to 'defending' a space she has gotten comfortable with (on top of sofa, couch, a certain corner etc).

Now, my logic tells me to lure her out of such a situation, but that is not always possible with 4 or 5 other non-aggressive and a once timid now more assertive dog around. And one of the things I have to factor in is that the owners may not have set any boundaries where acceptable or unacceptable behavior is concerned.

She is relatively responsive to treats, except when she is afraid, then no amount of praise, reassurance nor bacon fat would make a difference.

My question is: To avoid a scenario where she gets into a fight for reasons mentioned earlier, what methods of treat-ing / positive reinforcement should I apply?

[Raised By Wolves]

Hi Fein!

I have worked with my share of fearful, anxious, abused, confused, and insecure dogs. Your new dog may simply not be as receptive to the use of treats or any specific type of training, yet. But, this will change with time. However the use of treats will be of benifit when you want her to associate "good stuff" in certain situations.

I usually just try to get the dog to feel secure, safe, and know where their place is within their new family or "pack", before I do anything else. Just not putting any additional stress on her right now while she is in this fearful state, will help. If she is not receptive to you offering her a treat just yet, give her a little time to adjust and feel more comfortable.

I can get more specific on what to do here, but will wait until you get some other viewpoints on what might help.

The good news is, many dogs I've worked with who are fearful, are also very smart and easy to communicate with, once they start coming around.

[D.Schäferhund]

Agree with RBW.
Little more would help.
Hm i never worked with really fearfull dogs I don't know how extreme ur case is...., I usually get the other ones.... ;-)
But I worked with a lot of affraid horses that flight/fight system is the same.
Usually they pick up fast if they can trust you, Some stuff I sometimes just let slide and try new at a different time. I usually don't expect the same when they were upused and treated wrong like i would for otheres, I found that a lot of behaviours you want or actions of the dog come while u are doing nothing.
Sometimes it is best to leave them alone for a while, they will come.....

With one dog though our old one, he had earinfections when we got him, same with Kessy, and now I have anka who had a bad case of stickers in her paw, they all were affraid of the pain, with the ears the swelling, with the stickers in the paw the touchingpain. But oh well I can't really describe it. But if you are calm and let show that everything will be fine they will come from under the table or out of the Kennel. even anka jumps on the "fireplace edge"
to get worked on her paw.
Yes with the pupps it is easyer but Kessy was new didn't know me and -oh she knows how the earcleaner looks but after the second day it was no drama at all getting her to stay with me eventhough she screamed as if she was about to die.....
I can't tell you for sure what makes them come, but I guess a lot of it is what your signals are, the unconcious ones, and then a praise and a treat are fine. but i experienced a lot of times a touch comes first, then they are able to take a treat.
What helped with al these prcedures is making a little party when everything is done, and maybe an extra treat.

hope that helps a little. I do a lot from feelings, changing stradegies quik adn try something else, it is hard to say something about that without specific info on the dog and situation. It all depends , but I guess you know that....

[Carrie]

I agree with RBW....to take it slowly and let her get to trusting you more. But it sure wouldn't hurt a thing to work with her a little bit by herself...with the other dogs out of the room. Does she know anything like sit or come? At other times....not when she's on the couch and not wanting to get off, can you get her to come to you for a pat and then give a treat? Can you lure her into a sit and reward her with quiet praise and a treat? How about a little game...slow movements, but maybe fetch, just tossing a toy or treat a very short distance and seeing if you can get her to bring it to you? Does she have any playful tendancies? If you can get her involved with interacting with you more on this level, you can begin to show her how wonderful you are and how you actually control all the wonderfulness that she gets from interacting with you and following your lead to sit, come, stay, fetch, shake hands, whatever. When she starts seeing you as such a confident, gentle, trustworthy leader, she'll feel so much more secure and will lose that need to be in charge of the couch. She'll rather like the idea that you are going to guide her in her schedule and her "duties" so she doesn't have to worry about it.

So basically, you can't do anything immediate about a snapping episode, but you can circumvent and come in the back door...gradually helping her to find her place as she becomes more in the know...so to speak. Once she sees you as her safety net, her leader who is trustworthy, who never hurts her, your position as "the man in the house" (lol) will become more clear. But you're going to have to be confident and not fussing over her anxiety. That can be viewed by her as though you are worried. You don't want that. Let her feel your happy, cheerful, easy going, confident manner.

Can you identify what types of things seem to trigger her fear? If so, is there any way to avoid some of these things and later you can deal with it with desensatizing etc? (If they're things which are associated with something that happened to her before) I guess I'd try to minimize those things for now and just sort of let her adjust to a new way, but go slowly without being too much of a tenderfoot.

These are just my ideas. I am not the expert with working with abused dogs, so take my ideas with a grain of salt or see what others think.

I'm sure I left something out, in spite of this usual long winded approach. LOL.

[feinwerkbau]

Thanks Deb and D!

My gut feel was to let her 'just be' for as long as she needs simply because every living creature needs to adjust within their own space and time. It's good to hear reinforcing opinions.

Just after I posted, I spent a few moments with her and just did what her owners do ... practise simple commands like 'sit' and treat. All the other dogs were fenced off for the time being. She was very, very hesitant at first, but accepted the treats after the third try.

What I find interesting is that in the 3 fear anxiety / growling / once snapping moment, there were almost 'invisible' vibesI picked up - the first being fear (growl / snap) , the second instance being protection (growl / bark) and the third being low, prolonged growls. Just after penning her for the night, one of my girls went to sniff her pen, and she let out a comparatively viscious series of barks (difference in tone - not defensive but vcerging on the offense). That was when I reacted (unlike earlier instances) and issued two very stern 'NO's with a direct eye-to-eye stare (probably with my nostrils flaring at the same time! LOL!)!!! As expected, she backed down. I left the room and after 10 minutes, came back with some treats which I gave to her after giving her a 'sit' command (which she followed). Following the treat, I stroked her and praised in a slow, reassuring tone (higher pitch).

Am I doing the right thing?

[flyndog]

I'm confused. What is "treats training"? What kind of training has she received if she has been given the run of everything at her home? How would you "lure" a dog out of an aggressive situation?

There are tons of questions to be asked and answered before I would feel comfortable giving you advice online for treatment of an aggressive dog. If you would you like me to send you a behavioral intake questionnaire, I will be glad to do it. It's too big to post here. After you answer some basic questions we can get down to more detailed ones and help you decide whether you have the necessary skills and experience to treat the dog's aggression yourself. I do not recommend practicing or experimenting on aggressive dogs.
Kit

[feinwerkbau]

Carrie, I was writing my reply when you posted.

She knows 'sit' and 'come' and 'off' very well. Except that (as expected) she's very hesitant on 'come' for the time being (even with the other dogs fenced off). I actually got a warning growl earlier when I moved towards her and tried to get her settled.

No problems circumventing any possible unpleasant episodes for her for now, but I will have other dogs coming in just before Christmas which may complicate the matter.

I actually have 'good feelings' about her as her (so far) body language has not been excessive as yet. I just wanted a few words of advise from you all whom I know practise positive reinforcement.

OK, I need to go sleep soon (now that everyone else in the household is settled, and I finally had my dinner).

Nightynite!

[feinwerkbau]

Kit,

I can fully understand your concern.

What I have seen so far doesn;t seem to be full-out aggression, but the spark of what could be fear and / or possession (probably the former) aggression.

She was a rescue from SPCA. I don't see her owners issuing any assertive commands (all sweet and encouraging - no firmness or reaction when I nearly got snapped when I tried to inspect her ears) and she goes anywhere / anytime she wants to in her house unless her owners tell her to get off the furniture. She's very responsive with 'sit', 'come' and 'off' (furniture) when needed. Treats training so far was what her owners were taught by the SPCA - command, dog follows, give a treat. With absolutely no offence to the owners, I am sure that they have been responsibly been doing what they were told to do when they adopted the dog.

I hope this helps. And yes, I would be open to a multi-page questionnaire.

[Carrie]

Well Fein, for sure it wouldn't be good to deal with this with any kind of aversive, scolding type stuff. This would be a touchy situation. And you may indeed find that you need some more help than what's here. If it's a little fear biting or possession guarding, a little bit of a leadership confusion....that's one thing, but if it's severe, you may need some help from someone hands on to see exactly what's going on. Is this a rescue? Perhaps there are too many dogs around to be able to deal with this one. She sounds like she may need some serious one on one work.

Well...sleep on it. Have a good night and I'll be thinking of you and this poor little dog.

[feinwerkbau]

Thanks Huns.

Yes, she's a rescue. As mentioned in a moment's earlier reply to Kit, it doesn;t appear to any kind of all-out aggression, but (in my terms) the spark of which.

I've dealt very successfully with dogs with 'attitude' problems before where re-establishing leadership roles and reconditioning worked wonders (with a mix of both positive and negative reinforcement), but I do know that aggression requires a professional's help and that more often than not, the various premutations of aggression can be easily worsened with aversives. Dun worry, sometimes my brains do work ... for a few moments. LOL!

OK, I'm gonna go crash now. The little girl's fast asleep already.

[Carrie]

Now, get to bed!

[flyndog]

My mistake. You said the dog has fear aggressive, and indicated possession and territory aggressive. I'm not sure what "full blown out aggression" needs to look like. Obviously, we are defining aggression differently. I would consider a dog that growls and snaps to have aggressive intent. I guess you want a long post.

1.About how old is the dog?
2.Do you have any idea of what brees are in the mix?
3.How many times has the growling/snapping occured?
4. When did it first occur?
5. Who or what is threatening or aggresive behavior directed towards?
6. Is the behavior increasing in frequency or intensity?
7. Who is around when the growl/snaps occur?
8. What has been done so far to try and correct the behavior?
9. What is the make up of the household - other dogs, humans, other pets, children?
10. Does the dog know and obey any other obedience commands other than sit, come and off?
11. What do you mean when you say the dog "has been given complete run of eveything" in the house - Is there a specific behavior problem associated with that freedom - ie house soiling, chewing, etc?
12. When was theh last vet visit and what for?
13. Is the dog on any medication?
14. What is the dog fed and how many times a day?
15. Who feeds the dog?
16. How long has the dog been with the current family?

That will do for now.

[Raised By Wolves]

Fein, If Kit is offering to help you via PM, go for it!

I agree that the signs she is showing you can be very misinterpteted over the net. I really think you will need a very experienced hands-on trainer/behaviorist. There are too many signals which can be passed back and forth between you and the dog. Even direct eye contact and a "NO", could be the wrong thing to do, right now.

A lot of what I'm hearing sounds like her trying to establish her place within her new group. Add that on top of fear or what ever else is going on, and things can add up to a bite real quick. If she was not given many boundries in her past home, this only will only make things worse.

This is sounding serious.

[flyndog]

If Fein is willing to post answers to a detailed intake form, and have them posted and discussed, it could be very informative...and a good exercise in scientific method, behavior assessment and intervention, behavioral science, ethology, and counseling skills. But then, I think that stuff is fun. Maybe a bit too heavy for this venue, but you did ask for help.

[feinwerkbau]

Thanks Kit,

Would you like me to answer the list of questions posted up, or the questionnaire?

I agree; it would be an interesting exercise, eventhough the accuracy of the answers may belimited by the information I was provided.

PM away!