Mom vs positive reinforcement

[D.Schäferhund]

Hello
Actually i am not sure why it happens but i find this very interesting:

I go to feed my horses every day, and everyday i take my dogs with me, they have a blast. they roam free but usually stay relativly close, sometimes they wander of in the cowpasture right next to us, mom could folow them but she doesn't she stays close, and the little turds are off and gone, they stay in sight usually, lately they discovered the pond and the treeline, but that is ok.
So when they wander off and i am done with the horses I just walk towards the house or hide untill they know I am not there anymore(that doesn't take long) and then they come running...
Mom stays with me, but she is worried where they are and stops and looks back , but still follows me, so when I hide or walk toward the house and they come running, I prepare to make a big party when they arrive and I try to do so, but mom runs towards them and mouthes them so they get pined to the ground, I try to stop her from doing so and most of the time it works...
but still this is an interesting behaviour, and I had to start thinking about it.
What do you think???

[Novel]

That is interesting... You're trying to give them positive reinforcement that they are coming back, but mom is telling them they've been bad for wandering...
I guess, mom knows best. Maybe every other day take them out without mom, and do your positive thing, and the day mom is with you, let her handle it...
As an experiment, see what days the puppies come back the fastest.

[Raised By Wolves]

At first I thought you were talking about "your" mom!

She may just be mouthing to get them to settle down. Sounds like a good mom dog to me! I'd let her settle them, and then get everyone to follow you the rest of the way back to the house.

I know these little guys can really be a handful, but I envy you this time with them, Kat!

[D.Schäferhund]

Hi
I take them out with me, sometimes all of them and sometimes an extrasession with one.
Inspite of some belives they are very attached to me, and not that much to eachother, they don't wander as much as they did, well one is sold and he was a fresh little one and so full of himself....- wandered of a lot

They mostly pay attention where I go even if mom goes a different way, although she doesn't do that very much, she feels obligated to help me do my work. the little ones take that time, when I am close to the horses for exploring.

I think she tells them not to wander too far. But that is a little against what i belive in training in. They take freedom, wich mom thinks they shouldn't have, she punishes it. i hide and "get "them scared, when I disappear .
i know mom would keep a close eye on them, i see that she is confused when i just go hide or walk away, I can see that she is thinking: do I look for my pups or do I go with my "Mom"?
She usually follows me. i believe she thinks that I know what I am doing is good, but she is still confused.
That would implement that dogs understand punishment for something that they are not doing this instant, that they know that this is for wandering off too far and not for coming back.
I try to figure that out, because that behaviour isn't writen down as far as i know, I have seen it before but never that intense.
Now does that have an impact on my training with them, and other dogs, does that widen my knowledge for handling situations like that.
Can I punish when they come back, when they weren't listening-do they make the connection?
They seem to get the message from mom, today they took a little loop of the property into the cowpasture on the way to the barn, my first stop, mom pinned Anka the most venturuos pupp after that loop, and they stayed put all the time, well on the property. does she do bordertraining with them?
She knows the fenceline, I never tought her, but she chases strays till the fence, eventhough she could go through, too.

First i was very puzzeled because I had so much trouble with advertizing and that hole well planed littler, came faster and more unorganized then thought, right in our move, but for maturing reasons I didn't want o put it of one more heat again!
Well, the result is good and bad.
They should be off in good homes by now, like one of them allready is, but on the other hand. i learn so much, by just watching them grow.
Revized my belive it is bad to get two pups out of a litter, they will be very independent, that subject is not that easy. They just require more attention, well and that is hard for a lot of people. but it is not that they be more fixated to dogs then humans.

I see my dog that is so hard and dogagressive, beeing so gentle and displays all the social behaviour i thought she missed learning in the propper way.
She is more then paitent and abslotly fair, doesn't play her dominance against them.
she isn't jealous of them, because they want so much attention fom me.
She shows me sides I would have never seen without that litter.and the time i get to spend with them , that is more then it was planed.
I have a strong belive that she does pin them down for a reason, the reson of going of that far, but do i have to change my ay of training. does it have an impact on my behaviour with the pups/dogs??

@ RBW: it is a hard time, well they get well behaving everyday a little more and it is work to get four, well now three pottytrained, and fed and basic obedience done, but it pays of and all that little stuff they do is so rewarding, ahveing the chance to watch them under all kind of aspects, is wonderfull. Not just to see them grow. it answers so many left open questions, you don't find in a book.
I think a lot of you who breed and be close to the pups know what I am talking about, you learn a lot about bahaviour and the dogs you though you had figured ot pretty much.
It is not just about how cute they are I love watching and observing.
You always find something new...

[Novel]

I agree, you can learn so much about them socially by just watching them. It must be so inspiring to watch a mom and her pups, how she teaches them, etc.
I know we've been trained as humans that dogs do not remember what they've done wrong, and not to punish after the face. I would still hold on to that, because we're still speaking a foreign language and there are misunderstandings, no matter how hard we try. Mom speaks their language completely, and there may be a small thing she does, like an odor, a sound, etc. that makes them understand after the fact that we could not duplicate.

[Carrie]

I know we've been trained as humans that dogs do not remember what they've done wrong, and not to punish after the face. I would still hold on to that, because we're still speaking a foreign language and there are misunderstandings, no matter how hard we try. Mom speaks their language completely, and there may be a small thing she does, like an odor, a sound, etc. that makes them understand after the fact that we could not duplicate.

I think that's a very valid point.

It sounds very interesting D. And it sound like you're getting a very enriched experience with these pups. Watching dogs interact with eachother is wonderful but like Novel said, we probably have to take a little different approach in our training because we cannot hope to duplicate their language nearly close enough to what they communicate to eachother. We can incorporate what we do observe into our interactions with them, but we cannot emulate it that well.

[D.Schäferhund]

Yes I know, but it is still fascinating and keeps you thinking , trying to find what it is, she does. So far she is staring at them when they try to wander of and when they return from outside the fence she pins them; not all because not all are going but not always the same one even if they were out with more then one.

I let her do her job the last times we went outside, the pining got less but one time this morning she was very sirious and pined them all repeadetly and with more inforcement. They cept closer to me every time a little more when we went outside,that made it hard to walk.
This afternoon they didn't leave the property they stayed mostly close to me, or outside the paddoks and whatched me. because the horses were running a little.they went to the fence but stoped, even anka just hoped outside and came right back, because the others didn't follow.
Eventhough the cowpiles are such a nice treat....
When i walk they stay close to me, "Zwicke", the one I will keep, stays often very close to me and the others pin her then, probaly because they are jelous.
Mom is usually up front and doesn't care too much.
The three little ones make it hard for me to walk, lately, "Zwicke" trys to keep in heel position looking up to me, tapping my hand with her nose, she would stay there if she wouldn't get pined by the others. whe we walk out the door she sprints about three to four meters and stops, returnes to me , then the others come and usually start fights, and take off. but not that far anymore..... fast falling back next to me or short in front of me.even though mom is quite a ways ahead.

It is so interesting and I try to figure it out, what all happens, and why. one thing is i am right in the middle and can't observe from the outside.
The ranking of the pups is still changing. Anka is quite a little "mom" and fights because she can and winns, if somebody fights back the third one not involved gets attacked., she has to take out her frustration...
Quite some attentionfighting going on lately, maybe that plays in the part that theynstay closer, too.

[Carrie]

They sound so fun and interesting. Do you have any recent pictures? What fun you're having!

[D.Schäferhund]

cass asked for some too, i uploaded some in my gallerie

[Carrie]

I went to your gallery and saw your pictures. They're great!

[D.Schäferhund]

Thank you!!!

Well I have a new developement, Mom is still pining them, but the little ones get great at it to.
Especially my little dominant anka is picking it up pretty good. unfortunally not just outside she loves to do it to each dog that it close to me, or just for the heck of it....
they still stay very close and it is getting to the point that i find me stumbeling over fighting puppys quite often on my way to the stable....
I decided to let mom do her thing for a while and then take the pups out alone...
we'll see what happens...
I think mom does it for a reason but i think i see that she just does it sometimes for the heck of it, too. I don't see a need in mouthing the same pup three times in a row or when they are walking nicely.
Well yes maybe she has a reason, but knowing her that might be just a little funthing to do , too...
The pups try too keep mom now from doing it, by makeing themselves small and sometimes try to make a bow arround her or walk closely to the fence, beeing very small und "almost not visible" but that taktik doesn't work , yet but shortens sometimes the time on the ground....

Doesn't have anyone else observed something similar???

[Raised By Wolves]

Kat,

I also find this very interesting! My biggest stumbling block is the fact that this "pinning" and "bossing" is happening between young pups and their mother. Although now you say one of the pups is doing this with the other ones.

It's been many years since I have observed a mom and pups interacting, so I'm really enjoying your observations!

From what I've studied about wolves, I know that in the wild, only the alpha female breeds and has control of the pups.

I watched a documentary about some captive wolves, where the non-alpha female had a litter, the pups were taken away and hand reared, and then returned to the group. The alpha female claimed the pups and did not allow the mom wolf to interact with them.

I believe you have a high-drive, "top dog" from what you've written about her. Her performance and confidence during bite work seems to show this even more.

If this behavior wasn't between mom and pups, or young pups with each other, I wouldn't tolerate it as leader. But, this is unfamiliar territory for me, and I'm very interested in what's going on and where you set the boundries!

I look forward to hearing how things are going!

[D.Schäferhund]

Oh i have a lot to observe and try to find out , hehe
it is not easy, becuase the situations change where it ahppenes, last night they stayed out of the pasture because that is apperantly the new thing to do, why i don't know, the horses never did anything to them, maybe run arround a little but that is it.

So she mouthed them when she got back to the fence...
Then she just did it because, it looked like...
sometimes it has something from a playoffer, but the pups make themselves small...
I know how rogh she plays and not too many doogs like that and go away, and leave her alone.
This morning it it seemed like a playoffer inbetween. i remembered the female she was playing with in Germany, Finja, she seemed submissive to her but copyed Kessys behaviour, stuck with her whereever she went, and a little the other way round too. but Finja was licking her mouth a lot showing submitting signals, then Kessy too tried to mouth her on the neck, well she couldn't, because she had a muzzle, because we weren't sure if she would keep her teeth to herself. but i bet it would have resulted in the same picture, Kessy mouthing her down...

Kessy has her own playrules, play rough or go, the same way seems to turn out little Anka,she shows the same grumpyness and dominance and she does a lot of things like mom because she can!!

I went to stopping fights between the pups when they are close to me and more or less fighting over me, for now i just let that mouthing be, it has its siriousness but is not agressive-from mom- well with the pups it sometimes ends up in fights.....

Wolves: hm i remebered to read that a pack shares raisng the pups, that the pups have a long time a big portion of freedom with almost no discipline, coming from the elders, I know that the pack brings the pups food too, or pukes it up for them, they help with raising and "training" them.
Some wolves even get official babysitters, -females mostly, that babysit while mom is away....
What i noticed alex is beeing left alone very often. he doesn't get pined quite as much, but he is way more polite then the girls are.
Anka is a little dominant fresh dog, aika(Zwicke) is very submissive to the others, but stands up for herself if she has enough. she on the other hands takes the fredom to hop on the couch and fight from there, that is an advantage-she knows. but she wants a leader arround, whom she can follow.
Alex is a snuggely kuddely something, who doesn't know anything better then beeing close to mom or me, snuggeling beeing petted, sleeping in ur lap.

Is it a female thing, no i don't think so Abaraxas got that treatment when he was still here too and he was a dominant little dog, really full of himself....
but what does Alex do different, he goes out of the pasture like the others, but doesn't get pined half as much?

any ideas what to look for?

[Raised By Wolves]

Hi Kat,

I find this sooo interesting!

Maybe Alex has the mellow "babysitter" personality. Now, I'm not there to observe, but I think this is a "pack" position and personality type, which is often overlooked when people are talking about alpha types and omega types, etc...

I know a wolf hybrid named Homer, who definately is one of these. Uncle Homey! It's hard to even describe how I know this, but I do! He "hoots and woos" vocally. Doesn't give off a lot of dominant signals. Is not outright submissive, either. There's just something calm and nurturing about him. I'm convinced he is a born pack "babysitter" type of personality.

Are you keeping a journal of the pups interactions with mom and each other as they grow? I think you have some pretty good research material going on here!