Neutering and Aggression

[Accoladryn]

Hi, i'm not a regular poster, but i'm looking for some input on my situation please.

I have a purebred great dane, almost 18 months old. I bought him from a very responsible show breeder, i researched for 2 years before i decided on her, and she's been there supporting me from day one with all of my questions. I know his health history and that of his parents and grandparents...up to 4 generations. I also know the temperament of both his parents.

I picked him up at 9 weeks old, and we were in an obedience class from 10 weeks to about 7 months. He has always gone to leashless dog parks from the beginning, he's been very well socialized. When he reached puberty, he got the "attitude" as well as some new dog-dog aggression developing. Trying to nip this in the bud we started training him more focused around these changes in his behavior. we started trying to desensitize him towards dogs, feeding him treats and wonderful things everytime he saw a dog and didn't freak out (started out as just leash aggression, and became more of a "i'm bigger and better than you!" issue off leash :-p ) Sometimes he'd do well, but gradually over the last few months it's gotten worse. His "attitude" has slowly diminished and he's much more obedient now than he was at the peak of his teenage period, but the aggression towards dogs has just become worse even with the training we've tried to do.

so, i discussed with his breeder and we both agreed that it's time he get neutered. We were hoping he might make a good breeding candidate, but this is a big blaring "no!" in my mind, and i'm very happy with this decision.

So here's my question. Based on this little min-bio of his life, how successful do you guys think neutering will be in helping to eliminate his doggy aggression? He's not aggressive towards people of any age or race etc., and he used to LOVE all other dogs. He used to play with them for hours at the parks when he was little, no aggression displayed until his hormones started raging. I know that the neutering won't be a magic bullet or anything, but my hope is that it will help his training be more effective. He still does okay off leash at the dog park a lot of the time, but will eventually find a dog that he thinks needs to be dominated, and then won't leave him alone! Mounting behavior, and just being overall obnoxious, and we end up having to leave. Do you think we might be able to start going back to dog parks again? I honestly would really like to get him therapy certified, and i need him to be able to pass the "walk by another person with their leashed dog" test to get his CGC.

i read that 50% of dogs that are neutered have the dog aggression disappear. so for 50% it doesn't. What do y'all think? will Bronx fit into the good category here or the bad? I'm nervous, it's getting done regardless, but i just wish i could be reassured that it will really help this problem.

thanks for listening! i'd appreciate any input.

Adryan

[gsp4619]

I say yes if you decide not to breed him. Having him fixed will definately prevent long time illness as far & prostate problems that I do know for a fact.

Now I am not sure about to fix the agression. I have been told it mellows the dog but don't know for 100%. But if your not going to breed him then yes most definatley for the health fator long term.

GSP

[Owned by Lucy]

If he is not going to shown or breed then he definately needs to be neutered eventually. Large breed dogs like Great Danes are very slow to mature and by 18 months have not yet developed their full muscle, bone and nervous system structure. The hormones produced by the testicles are necessary for the proper development of these strutures. I would consider waiting until 24-36 months before neutering. The several dogs I neutered before full maturity ended up with low muscle mass compared and extended long bones when compared with their contemporaries.

Also there is no evidence to support the claim that neutering fixes aggression problems when they are already evident. If he is generally obedient then all that is probably needed is additional training and desentization to let him know that the behaviour is unacceptable and to teach him what is.

Finally, while removing the testicles will eliminate the risk for testicular cancer it will do nothing to decrease the risk of prostate problems and may put him a risk for problems that come from lack of normal hormones in the body. I am in no way trying to discourage you from neutering him (b/c I think is probably for the best) but you should have the facts. This is not a harmless procedure. Messing with mother nature is always going to have side effects.

[Spiritus]

I have a few more questions.

Is his aggression to all dogs, or just male dogs?
Does he have any dog-friends that he will play with?
When you worked on desensitizing him, what exactly did you do?

[Accoladryn]

He is aggressive to any dog when he's on his leash, or in our home and sees one outside. If we're at the dog park, it's only males. There are dogs that he is friendly with, we have a springer spaniel, and he's friends with a fixed chocolate lab (male) that was a playmate since puppyhood. He's also friends with my mom's dog, a giang schnauzer mutt.

When we were desensitizing him, we would go to the petsmart parking lot and wait for dogs to come by. We would wait until he noticed them and IMMEDIATELY start treating him and praising him for not reacting in a bad way. If he DID start grumbling or barking or anything, we would not punish or reprimand, simply turn him around in the other direction and walk away. We would generally have him lying down during most of this to discourage dominant behavior. We walk him in areas where we think he might have an opportunity to see other dogs without being confronted by them up close, and we would make him sit where the dogs were visible, and treat and praise him if he obeyed and sat down or lied down like a good boy without reacting negatively towards the dog.

Owned by Lucy- i understand the concern about neutering him to early. That was one of the things we were hoping to avoid with him, the original plan was to wait until he was 2 years old, and then have him tested for hips, thyroid, CERF, and cardiac, as well as conformationally evaluated to see whether he would make a good breeding candidate. If at that point any one of these things fell short, he would be neutered, and at that point his growth and development would be complete and neutering would cause the minimum amount of damage. The problem now is that even with the desensitizing etc. that we've been trying, things are getting WORSE, not better. While he does do well at times, it seems like the times when he doesn't do well it just instills in him these behavior habits that (even after he's been neutered) could become too engrained in his reaction to other dogs, that training him to behave appropriately will be next to impossible.

Ultimately this has become a lose-lose situation. If we DON'T neuter him soon, the behavior could become too habitual, and stop being directly linked to his hormones, and rather become engrained behavior. If we DO neuter him now, i face the potential for growth and health problems later, as you pointed out.

is there anyway to avoid these potential problems with neutering? vitamins, supplements, etc.? certain exercise levels or diets???

thanks for all the input!

[gsp4619]

Oh realy owned by lucky on the causing prostate problems? Now I was told that when I lost bear it was due to the fact that he was never fixed. Witched caused him to have prostate problems that led into kidney failure. This was all discovered after I went to a second opinion doctor to make sure my first was on the right track. I was never told anything about their hormones.

that realy bothers me, well has me thinking. That I was not told it all clearly. I am not saying your wrong, I am . I just would hate to have to think that was wrong information I got

GSP

[Spiritus]

Originally Posted by Accoladryn

He is aggressive to any dog when he's on his leash, or in our home and sees one outside. If we're at the dog park, it's only males. There are dogs that he is friendly with, we have a springer spaniel, and he's friends with a fixed chocolate lab (male) that was a playmate since puppyhood. He's also friends with my mom's dog, a giang schnauzer mutt.

Leash/Barrier aggression, male agression to unknown dogs (which is typical for a teenaged intact dog).

In otherwords, he is not actually "dog agressive". He sounds more like an adolescent boy who thinks he rules the dog park.

Originally Posted by Accoladryn

When we were desensitizing him, we would go to the petsmart parking lot and wait for dogs to come by. We would wait until he noticed them and IMMEDIATELY start treating him and praising him for not reacting in a bad way. If he DID start grumbling or barking or anything, we would not punish or reprimand, simply turn him around in the other direction and walk away. We would generally have him lying down during most of this to discourage dominant behavior.

I think this line that I bolded is important. You put him in a submissive posture in a situation he was uncomfortable in.... that could have contributed to things now. Something I have learned is that dogs should not be "downed" in a situation they are not comfortable in. Down is such a vulnerable position to dogs, they need to know and trust that you won't let anything bother them, and when working with a dog that is unsure of other dogs, a down position might actually be counter-productive. I know that when I teach "down" in puppy class, I make sure each person/dog team has a lot of room around them, and if a dog still really resists, then I show them with MY dog how to teach their dog at home, where he is comfortable. Usually within a week or two, the dog is downing at class.

Originally Posted by Accoladryn

We walk him in areas where we think he might have an opportunity to see other dogs without being confronted by them up close, and we would make him sit where the dogs were visible, and treat and praise him if he obeyed and sat down or lied down like a good boy without reacting negatively towards the dog.

Instead of asking for the sit or down, why not ask him to heel, or jump up and love you, or play with you a little bit? Instead of asking him to sit/down and watch the thing that makes him upset, get his focus OFF the thing that makes him upset to something fun, like you? Other dogs = playtime with mom.

Will neutering help? Probably.... maybe. It's hard to judge that without seeing him and his behavior. Has his breeder seen him? Is she close enough that she could evaluate him? Have you had him assessed by a trainer/behaviorist? I am trying to picture his behavior in my mind.... and from what you have described, I am seeing an adolescent boy stretching his limits with you, unsure of the other dogs he is meeting, and reacting inappropriately.

And I would also say, owning two intact males myself, I do NOT expect my intact male dogs to get along with other male dogs. I would not take my intact male dogs to a dog park - not because they are agressive, but because they ARE intact, male dogs. They are intact because they are breeding dogs. They are both dominant dogs, and although I can have them together in my house with me present, I do not permit them to run together. They did when the second one was younger, but once he hit that adolescent "I RULE the world!" stage, I stopped. I don't permit them to get that testosterone pumped up when they are together.

I sold a male puppy from my first litter, and the owners were going to keep him intact for me to show. Then they did some research and thought about it, and decided that they WANT to be able to take their dog to a dog park and not worry too much, that they didn't want to have to worry about dog agression as he grew up. They were right - and I supported them in their desire to neuter their boy. Keeping a male intact through teen phase can result in agression to other dogs, particularly males. It doesn't always happen, but it is definately something that does happen. I also don't think that male agression is a reason NOT to breed. Intact males are typically breeding males, and breeding males will fight for the right to breed. It is hardwired into them.

That being said, I would stop worrying about the actual behavior towards other dogs, and change your focus to training him to understanding that YOU DO NOT ACT LIKE THIS WITH ME ON THE OTHER END OF THE LEASH. At this point, IMO, it is irrelavent that he is being stupid with other dogs. At this point, demanding respect from him is the big thing. He's not done growing yet, and I don't know many Danes that don't have the power to drag their people to the ends of the earth if they so desire. He needs to learn that pulling/lunging/snarling/barking at ANYTHING is not acceptable when you are holding that leash.

Break the behavior down.... work on it one peice at a time, instead of working on the whole picture at once. One place to start might be back to loose-leash walking....