flyndog I need advice

[DarknessDivine]

I am looking into finding a trainer for Zeus, I want to use a professional with him because he isn't catching on as Dracs did and I don't want to wait to long.
What would you recommend I look for and ask these people when I contact them?
I don't want them to be harsh with him.
I found this on one of the trainers websites I was looking into:

The root word of obedience is "OBEY." In order for a person to correctly train a dog in obedience, that same person must fully embrace some "beliefs" regarding dogs and the training of them.

These "beliefs" are correct and is the truth regarding dogs. It matters NOTHING if you disagree with these beliefs; for your unbelief of them will not change them or the truth they contain, ONE WIT!

The reason so many people today have dogs who do not obey them, is because these same people have beliefs about dogs that are WRONG. Their "thinking" regarding their dogs is not correct.

They think they have correct information; but in truth, they have words of falsehood. The following "beliefs" about dogs are true, and go back many generations to the real German dog trainers of time past.


The 12 Rules of Thinking About Dogs
Dogs are dogs, not people.
Dogs are physically-conditioned-response-animals.
Dogs need to have a master.
Dogs will teach you more about dogs than all the trainers in the world.
Dogs are honest creatures.
Dogs reflect their owners COMPLETELY.
Dogs must have a job to do.
Dogs are not stupid: people are stupid.
Dogs are simple to train: people are not.
Dogs were created by God and have souls.
Dogs are not descendants of wolves.
Without a stave, a dog cannot be.

Once these beliefs regarding dogs are embraced and believed, we can now begin learning the 12 rules of being a dog handler.


The 12 Rules of Dog Handling
You must be fair.
The dog must never be allowed to ignore your commands.
You must always show your dog what you want it to do: patiently and firmly.
You must always command your dog only once.
Your dog must always obey your command.
You must correct your dog.
You must reward your dog.
You must be disciplined.
You must be consistent.
You must love your dog.
You must always remember that this true dog obedience training will always work in the real world.
Your dog then, and only then, will willingly choose you as its MASTER.

It kind of scared me, I mean I want to find him a trainer but I don't want them to change his happy go lucky kind of attitude, and I do treat my dogs as one of my children. Do all trainers think this way? I mean this trainer trains police dogs so maybe that's it..I don't kow..I need help!

[poodlesmom]

One suggestion would be to see if you can go and observe at least one of his classes. That will give you a chance to see if you are comfortable with his training method as well as see how he interacts with the owners and dogs. You'll also be able to talk with some of his clients and see how satisfied they are. And most importantly you'll be able to see how happy the dogs are. My 2 have been going to obed. school since they were young pups and they absolutely love going. I agree with his 12 rules of dog handling. The basics for dog training is the same whether the dog is a family pet or a police dog IMO. There is a big difference between what the typical dogowner & a partner of a police dog expect as a result of training but the beginning levels should be comparable I would imagine.

[doberkim]

if you dont want to train your dog this way, then dont go to this trainer. you cannot expect a trainer to change their methods for you - you need to locate a trainer that fits with your dog.

i would NEVER take a full course with a trainer without at least observing a class they taught, or doing a private with them.

if you are looking for a more positive approach, you can check out www.apdt.com for a trainer list. all my trainers are CPDTs.

[DarknessDivine]

Originally Posted by doberkim

if you dont want to train your dog this way, then dont go to this trainer. you cannot expect a trainer to change their methods for you - you need to locate a trainer that fits with your dog.

i would NEVER take a full course with a trainer without at least observing a class they taught, or doing a private with them.

if you are looking for a more positive approach, you can check out www.apdt.com for a trainer list. all my trainers are CPDTs.

Well I would not expect them to change their methods, that's not what I was saying..what I was saying or in fact asking was what questions I should I ask these people. I need to make sure I know exactly what I should be asking these people. I am not seeking a class I am seeking a private and need to email the list of tariners I have and asked flyn what would be good questions because she is a trainer from what I understand.

[doberkim]

what questions you should ask depends on what you are looking for. what behaviors are you looking to train, what methods are you looking to train with. do you use pure positive, do you use compulsion, what sort of collar do you want to use. what is your end goal - a well behaved pet who should obey, competition style obedience, etc?

there is no one answer as to what you should ask. and even after you ask, you should go to them and observe a class to make sure you see what you like. above all, i would do that - people can say what they want, but how they interact with their students and the dogs is the true sign of what its like. i have often paid for a private lesson to test the waters and see how my dog, myself and the trainer work together, and similarly i have refused to take courses i wanted to, when the trainer wouldn't let me observe before hand or just take one course.

if you want to talk to the people before hand, you should email them and explain your situation - some info on the dog, what you hope to gain, and if you have any major issues (ie you wont use a prong, you wont use a halti, your dog doesnt like men). but like i said, email only goes so far, and you really need to go out meet the trainers and see them in action.

and about the trainer you posted above. they feel that way and they train a certain way. if that doesn't coincide with what you believe, then i would not go to that trainer. yes, some trainers feel that way - there are just as many trainers as there are ways to feed a dog, ways to train a dog, ways to raise a kid, you name it. the goal is to find one that works WITh you, helps you accomplish what you want, and works along the same lines you do. and you need to be elastic, because that can change. in the past year or so, bowie and i have trained with no less than 6-7 people, each for a specific thing - one teaches a certain sport, one teaches a certain aspect (for isntance, attention), one teaches in a certain style (clicker), two are privates, etc. before we can tell you what to ask, we need to know what your goals are.

[GSD]

I agree going to watch a few sessions is key. I know a few handlers that have attitudes like this, and guess what, they have dogs that are very well behaved, and very happy dogs that are always walking with a little spring in the step, tail wagging and 100% focus on the handler. these people have very fairly taught the dog what is expected and what is not. The reason in my limited experience with the dog world, why some trainers come across as very strict and to the point about dog training. 1) they know that if they aren't, people that don't have as much experience will believe their dog is a person (and treat them like one), won't be consistent, etc, and then they wonder why they can't train their dog. These trainers are more heavy handed when dealing with the handler than they are with the dog. Just because he trains police K-9's doesn't mean he doesn't use positive training methods. The few I know, or have come in contact with use nothing but positive training methods. But again I wouldn't go to them until I've seen how they deal with certain dogs and certain situations.

[DarknessDivine]

Well I guess my goals would be for him to be more attentive to my commands.
Example:
With Dracs I was able to train easily..he knows when I say "Drop it!" he drops it, when I say "Sit!", "Stay!" he does just that. I ask him to go potty and open the door, he then goes outside uses the bathroom and returms promptly.
Zeus so far has only learned one of my hand commands and that is for when he is playing too rough, I still have to take him out to potty on a leash because when he goes out off leash he decides to play and run and will not acknowledge me when I say "Come!"..I spent 45 minutes outside trying to get him to come in the other day after he was let out for potty.
And it's not that he doesn't have outside play time and also inside play time because I make sure they have that everyday to work out that Boxer energy it just seems as though he chooses not to obey my commands. I know he is still young but with Dracs (and I know they are all diff.) he at least already knew to come when instructed and so on. I hope that helps. I guess what I want is someone who uses positive instruction, I don't want to hit or punish him hashly in anyway. I am open to a prong collar since I have read they aren't what I once believed them to be and Zeus is going to be a very BIG Boxer and I need him to obey me since I am the one who takes care of him 95% of the time.

[GSD]

anybody that wants you to "hit" a dog to punish them is someone you should run in the other direction from. It sounds like you have some goals that you'd like to reach so I'd go over them with the trainer. There are more than one way to reach them so I'd talk to whomever you're thinking of using and see what they say. You hit it right on the head, all dogs are different. A prong is great for some dogs, and some dogs need no more than a firm voice, a prong will actually break their spirit. Let the trainer evaluate you and your dog to devise a plan, see if you can agree with it and go for it. Its probably going to be them training you more than the dog anyway, i'm going through the same thing now (so much to learn) Some things seem like I can work on for weeks and nothing, then all of a sudden the light goes on, and it all seems so easy. I'm sure its me holding my dog back, but the lessons I learn stick with me when I learn them the hard way. Good luck. Keep us updated.

[DarknessDivine]

Yes, basically I need to be trained on how to get him to respond to me I guess a better what to put it is that I'm looking into getting a trainer for myself..And the prong thing I definately don't want it to break his spirit, I want him to still be the Zeus I love but more under control with me.

[GSD]

I didn't intend to scare you about the prong collar (if I even did, i'm just clarifying). A trainer that's seen many dogs should get a good feeling if its a possibility or not, most I think would try it without one, and move up to it if necessary. I use the prong with my dog, and her drive goes up when the prong goes on, she listens great, but she moves much faster, definatly no loss of spirit from her.

[DarknessDivine]

Okay, that's good I may have misunderstood what u were trying to say. I don't even think I need one, that is where I am confussed, Zeus is going to be home with me all day and all night I need him to be able to follow my commands when I give them. But they are simple sit,stay,come,drop it commands. I don't take him to parks and such just to the dog store, VET and so on with my other 2 dogs. I have a very quiet voice and it doens't sound stern and I can't get it to sound stern nless I scream and I don't like screaming. Dracs has learned that and does great with my quiet commands but it's like Zeus only wants to hear a stern voice such as the one my husband has.

[poodlesmom]

Each dog is definitely an individual and as you have found different things work for each. There is a great difference between the 2 of mine as well. They both have been quick to catch on to the different commands and understand what is expected of them. With Farley if he wasn't "in the mood" making my voice a little stern was all that was needed. Now, on the other hand, with Chloe if I used a sterner voice it accomplished absolutely nothing. Both trained initially as young pups on flat collars and moved up to nylon snap collars. There have been 2 instances where I needed to use a prong collar with Chloe. The 1st time was for the "come" command. She consistently would just sit there & look at me. A normal, quick pop & release with the snap collar would get her moving but the correction was required each & every time. I had the same problem with the "down" command (but only if I was standing) - I would have to always use a correction & I knew she knew exactly what I wanted because she would do it immediately if I was sitting but otherwise as soon as the command was given she would immediately stiffen up and look up at me as if to say "Yeah, right - I'll do it right after you do it!". In both situations I ended up using a small prong collar and she got 2 corrections for each command. That was all it took and she is reliable in them now. In fact both of my dogs now are working on flat collars and they still love going to classes.

I feel a qualified trainer should always use the softest method that attains the results desired.

[flyndog]

Hi Darkness. I agree with most of what GSD says. The exception is expecting a trainer to let you watch several classes without paying.

To answer your question:

Find out how much and what kind of experience the trainer has as well as where they gained that experience. A good trainer has handled lots of dogs and lots of different breeds.

Ask if they have handled any dogs in obedience trials and if so, where and what titles were earned. Have any of their students earned any titles? This isn't necessary to be a good trainer, but it is helpful info for you.

Ask why they got into training. Ask who most influenced their training style.

Has the trainer attended any seminars or conferences lately?

Is the trainer a member of any professional organizations?

Ask how they teach certain behaviors like Sit for instance. Ask how they handle aggressive dogs in class or non-stop barking dogs in group class. The point is to find out if the trainer uses forceful methods (or allows aggressive dogs in a group class). This works for private training, too.

Remember that a certification means nothing other than completion of a particular training school's course. Lots of these schools are online. It's pretty hard to learn to train dogs over a computer! These schools try to find trainers to mentor their students and give hands on dog experience.

Go up on the APDT (Association of Pet Dog Trainers) website www.apdt.org and look for a trainer in your area. If you find one, PM and I'll let you know what I know about them. BTW, I think they have a "what to look for in a trainer" section on the site.
Kit

[DarknessDivine]

Kit,
Thank you sooooooooooooooooooo much. Exactly the answers I was looking for.

[flyndog]

You're welcome. Glad I could help!