One step forward.....10 steps back???

[kalija]

Ok, I am really frustrated and I'm sure its not such a big deal but right now it feels like it is. I was so impressed Zuki was really getting some things so I decided to try taking him out for a walk, in daylight, with the whole family. I think I have posted before about his walking problems. He's a freak! He walks just fine, at night, with just me and our other dog, Dutchess. We usually go for walks late, around 9 pm, after I get my 2 yr old to bed. There aren't many people around then, and he is good. In daylight it a whole different story. He barks, frantically, the whole time we are walking. The few times I have attempted this, it was just him, me, and my son on his bike. Nothing I do can distract him form barking. There doesn't even need to be anything outside to bark at - he does it with no people or dogs visible. It is a different tone than his normal bark if we encounter a dog or person at night. Its an excited, shrieking, piercing bark. (Yes I'm sure my neighbors looooove it) So, needless to say, I haven't attempted this often lately. I had been of the opinion that he did this because Dutchess was not with us. You see, I can't really keep contol of 2 dogs AND a 2 yr old on a bike at the same time! So today I talked my hubby into going along,(an accomplishment by itself) hoping to make some progress if I could devote myself to working with Zuki. My hubby was walking Dutchess, I had Zuki, and my son was on his bike.
UGH. He still barked the whole time. So obviously he isn't doing this because he's nervous without Dutchess. Sooooo, my hubby finally took the leash from me (I took Dutchess from him).......and he stopped barking. I was so irritated! Now, when hubby had him, he was walking in front of everyone. After a time I tried to take him, thinking he just wanted to be out in front. Nope, started right up again. What the heck am I doing wrong? My hubby doesn't train the dogs, walk the dogs, feed the dogs, nothing, for crying out loud - he's MY dog!
Huh. Ok, venting over, can anyone suggest what I should do from here? Sorry this is so very long - but I need help!

[Sugardog]

Ok, well, first thing is that training and commands need to be practiced EVERYWHERE. A dog may be completely obediant at obediance class, but if you don't work with the dog at home, he won't be obediant at home. This is the same concept.....I'm sure you've done a great job training him and he follows your instructions really well at night, but he needs to be trained to follow your instructions outside during the day with distractions as well. I suggest that if you can, start slowly. Like instead of going when it's completely dark, go 30 minutes or so after the sun goes down so it's dusk. Then go right after the sun goes down and eventually you can work towards going in broad daylight. Also, take your treats with you. Don't take forgranted that he already knows the commands and he should follow them. Some treats and actual training may be necessary to get him back on track.

I would assume that the dog was ok with your husband because he was more calm. I think that because he was acting up, you may have been more anxious and upset, and that emotion traveled down the leash to him. When your husband took control, he was probably calm and knew what he wanted the dog to do. Just an idea.

[llsnwtsn]

first zuki is picking up on mom's willingness to allow this behavior. i've been a pet groomer for a long time now and train aggressive breed dogs with behavior problems. your dog is reacting to you. until you put a stop to your acceptance to this behavior it will continue. a firm hand and a loving heart will do all the work for you. one reason zuki reacts differently to your husband is because he must have a strong, dominant personality. good luck and remember rules and boundaries are one way to love your pet!

[kalija]

I wouldn't say I allow or accept this behavior. I definitely don't let him "get away" with bad behavior. I'm open to suggestions but I'm not buying this one - because it doesn't explain why he does not bark when I walk him after dark? I also don't think aggression has anything to do with it. He is a very soft dog, and very submissive usually.
Sugardog - it is correct I was probably less calm at the moment, and that probably has an effect on him. But this has been going on for quite a while now. You have some good suggestions I could try, thanks.
I should add that he walks fine, keeps a loose leash and behaves all commands on these walks. He just barks repetitively and persistantly.
ETA, I should have said behaves all commnds except "quiet"; LOL!

[Sugardog]

first zuki is picking up on mom's willingness to allow this behavior. i've been a pet groomer for a long time now and train aggressive breed dogs with behavior problems. your dog is reacting to you. until you put a stop to your acceptance to this behavior it will continue. a firm hand and a loving heart will do all the work for you. one reason zuki reacts differently to your husband is because he must have a strong, dominant personality. good luck and remember rules and boundaries are one way to love your pet!

A firm hand? Positive punishment in any form, be it a collar pop or an actual smack, is not going to do any good in this situation. It could in fact make it worse, especially if the dog is actually afraid or barking out of fear or nervousness. Positive reinforcement outdoes a "firm hand" any day of the week. The objective is to tell the dog what TO do, not what NOT to do.

Kalija, I'm going to trust you that he is not dominant aggressive and isn't showing any signs of dominance aggression during these outings.
I have a friend who teaches agility classes and does agility with her own dogs. Long ago, she rescued an American Eskimo dog. This dog was badly neglected and was kept in a small crate all day and all night. The dog was only let out of the crate twice a day to go potty. Once in the early morning, while it was still dark, and once at night. The result? Laika was deathly terrified of EVERYTHING, including daylight.
Anyway, the point of me telling this is to show that dogs must be conditioned to be used to life basically and accept the things that come with it. Because Laika was never exposed to daylight outside, she was never conditioned to think it's normal or ok. I think you may be in a similar situation with Zuki. He has gotten so used to walking at night, that when he is walked during the day, it's basically a whole new world to him.

Now for teaching quiet.....This is another good time to take your treats with you. Work on your heel exercises or some training lessons. You should be more interesting than whatever he's barking at, if he's focused on you, he won't be barking. If he turns his attention back to whatever else is out there and starts barking at it, call his name and the moment he turns his attention back to you, start to praise him and give him a treat. Again you may have to start gradually, starting at dusk, then just after sunset etc. Another thing that may work for you is when he starts barking, just stop. Let him bark his head off. He should eventually stop. When he stops, count to 5 slowly (like 1 1000, 2 1000 etc) and when you get to 5, praise him and give him a treat. This only works if he stops barking though, which they usually do.

[kalija]

Originally Posted by Sugardog

A firm hand? Positive punishment in any form, be it a collar pop or an actual smack, is not going to do any good in this situation. It could in fact make it worse, especially if the dog is actually afraid or barking out of fear or nervousness. Positive reinforcement outdoes a "firm hand" any day of the week. The objective is to tell the dog what TO do, not what NOT to do.

Kalija, I'm going to trust you that he is not dominant aggressive and isn't showing any signs of dominance aggression during these outings.
I have a friend who teaches agility classes and does agility with her own dogs. Long ago, she rescued an American Eskimo dog. This dog was badly neglected and was kept in a small crate all day and all night. The dog was only let out of the crate twice a day to go potty. Once in the early morning, while it was still dark, and once at night. The result? Laika was deathly terrified of EVERYTHING, including daylight.
Anyway, the point of me telling this is to show that dogs must be conditioned to be used to life basically and accept the things that come with it. Because Laika was never exposed to daylight outside, she was never conditioned to think it's normal or ok. I think you may be in a similar situation with Zuki. He has gotten so used to walking at night, that when he is walked during the day, it's basically a whole new world to him.

Now for teaching quiet.....This is another good time to take your treats with you. Work on your heel exercises or some training lessons. You should be more interesting than whatever he's barking at, if he's focused on you, he won't be barking. If he turns his attention back to whatever else is out there and starts barking at it, call his name and the moment he turns his attention back to you, start to praise him and give him a treat. Again you may have to start gradually, starting at dusk, then just after sunset etc. Another thing that may work for you is when he starts barking, just stop. Let him bark his head off. He should eventually stop. When he stops, count to 5 slowly (like 1 1000, 2 1000 etc) and when you get to 5, praise him and give him a treat. This only works if he stops barking though, which they usually do.

Our older dog Duthcess was like this when we got her - spent 90% of her first year in a crate. Whew, she was a wreck. That was 10 years ago - she's great now.....
Anyway, back to Zuki, I'm not sure its the same thing. He spend a ton of time outside during the day. I got him as a puppy, about 7 - 8 weeks. (This was a guess at the time). My son loves to play outside and we spent virtually every waking hour outside on weekends, as well as a couple hours before work, and usually stayed outside from the time I got home untill dark. He isn't afraid of light. Thats kind of why its so frustrating. His posture, while walking yesterday with my husband was that of a very happy, playfull dog -ears and tail up, head up, looking around. Not scared at all looking.
Anyway, I took some of your suggestions, heres what I did this morning, it was just getting light. I took some hotdog cut up into tiny pieces, and when he started barking I tossed some on the sidewalk. He stopped barking to grab it, so I clicked him and said "good, quiet". It took a lot of treats, but after about a quarter mile he was quiet! Then he only barked after we saw people outside, I told him to sit which distracted him enought o stop barking, we just turned the other way for a while. I don't want to push his threshold too hard.
We were able to walk a bit, got in some turns and some sits, and I feel much more positive today.
I know a lot of people would say that if he isn't barking out of fear it must be aggression, but I really do not feel this is the case. Its almost as if he is just really really excited and has to vocalize it. I saw a show on discovery I think, a while back about racing sled dogs. The dogs all howled and yipped as they started off the race. (I don't remember much else about the show, so I don't know if "all" of them did this or how long they continued - hope someone knows what I mean) This is what he reminds me of.

[Sugardog]

Well, not fear of daylight itself.....What I ment was the change in surrounding. He's used to the backyard day or night.....He's only used to the outside world at night. It's alot different looking during the day.

It sounds like your doing great though! When a dog barks, it doesn't necessarily have to be fear or aggression. Dogs do bark when they get excited.....Like sled dogs bark as they take off, or agility or flyball dogs barking before they are released to go. Plus, some dogs are just more vocal than others.

[kalija]

I just have to keep at it I guess. I have noticed a couple things in the last 2 days. When I walk the dogs, they are on a really loose leash, I haven't made Dutchie walk in a "formal" heel in years. She's a good walker and there is just no need, so I guess I was treating Zuki the same way without thiking about it. I watched my husband walk Zuki yesterday and he always keeps him in a close heel. So I tried it, and it seems like Zuki is more at ease in a tight heel. So that may be a big part of the problem. The other part of the problem I think is that I have to remember not to compare them. I seem to have forgotton the years of work to make Dutchess the dog she is, and I need to remember he will get there too in time!
Whew, looks like I wrote another book!