Can 2 dogs truly just hate each other?

[misdemeanorsmom]

My boyfriend and I own a 3 year old black lab, Missy. We socialize regularly with his brother & his wife & their chocolate lab, Dakota and 2 other family members with a yellow lab, Ginger. After about a year, Ginger started "stalking" Missy and displaying aggression towards her. Missy would come lay behind our legs, and kept out of Ginger's way, but Ginger would come looking to bully her. Nothing we did seemed to work, and the hostility between the two dogs kept escalating, so we stopped bringing them together, before someone actually got bitten. We have no idea what started this, and by now, Missy is just as or more aggressive towards Ginger when she does see her. This is really inconvenient...all of our social lives revolve around the 3 couples and our dogs. What can we do to make these girls get along? They should at least be able to be in the same acreage together without fighting. Both dogs get along great with Dakota. She refuses to have any part of their nastiness. Dakota and Ginger are both 4, and are sisters, by the way. What can we do?

[Sugardog]

Well, it's not hate.....Hate is a human trait.

Female dogs are prone to a type of aggression most behaviorists call traffic cop aggression. A "traffic cop" basically wants to rule other dogs. She will take it upon herself to discipline any behaviors other dogs exhibits that she doesn't like or doesn't approve of. If it's not nipped in the bud when it first starts to occur, it could very well bloom into complete dog aggression. I deal with this with my akita/shepherd mix.

Best thing you can do is to have all of your family involved to agree on hiring a behaviorist to come and observe the behavior and explain to everybody how to keep it in check and under control so it doesn't escalate.

[bigdoglover]

What were you doing with Missy when she would hide behind you? And how did you react to both dogs?

[misdemeanorsmom]

Reassured Missy, and told Ginger "No" firmly and moved her to the other side of the room. Immediately at any sign of aggression to anything, all of us have always immediately issued a firm no and stopped them in mid "woof." Now I know I should not have reassured Missy...or shouldn't I have? Actually, she did the proper thing. When Ginger became aggressive with her, instead of responding in kind, she came straight to me for instruction or help or whatever.

[bigdoglover]

Were all of you (more than one person) saying "no" in unison? There needs to be a clear leader in Ginger's mind, and no, I personally would not have re-assured Missy....JMO

Are the girls fixed?

[misdemeanorsmom]

Yeah, all the girls are fixed. Missy and Ginger are both very alpha, if you want to call it that, and since they met (Missy was only 8-12 weeks old) there has always been a little power struggle going on as to exactly which one rules supreme and neither has been willing to yield to the other. And the comforting was just reflex, you know? She came running over all distressed, and I did the mom thing. She is my baby girl, after all

[oc_spirit]

You could also not only be dealing with dominance issues as you say both females are quite dominant, but also what is called "bitch aggression." Sometimes you can get a handle on it other times you just have to accept the fact that two particular dogs will not get along. I have to deal with this with Ronan at times. There are just some dogs who he simply has decide he wants nothing to do with. So be it. He doesn't want to co-operate he stays home. Simple as that. Or we find a way to keep the dogs seperated.

[IceyBlueSibes]

I agree with Sugar dog in hiring a behaviorist to observe the situation.

My female, Denali, does not get along with the male lhasa apso mix that is staying with us. We are watching him because a friend of ours is living in their car, and didn't want Jack to do that. The first month or so was okay, but they started to fight. These fights had gotten to the point where Jack was getting puncture wounds, and he's not the type of dog to back down in a fight. Denali is the same as far as when it started, so that made things even more dificult. They have to be seperated when no one is here. And watched at all times. If Denali walks into the same room as Jack, Jack will start to growl.. so we have to curb that right away.

I agree with OC. It sounds like "bitch aggression". These two just possibly may not get along.

I definetly hire a behaviorist, in order to find out what needs to be done. It's hard for us to offer you advice for any type of aggression, when we aren't there to observe the situation.

[misdemeanorsmom]

Oh, I know. It can be tricky offering advice on something potentially so dangerous. I was just interested in some feedback, and wondering if anyone had dealt with this. We're all family...not hanging out together isn't an option. And we've always enjoyed making our pets an integral part of what we're doing. My big beef is I lost control here somewhere. Although initially not the instigator, Missy knows full well that aggression towards anything is not acceptable. It is simply not permitted. And they definitely know that any human around outranks them. We even tried a thing they showed me in one of our obedience classes, where we had them both leashed and brought them face to face. Well, the intention is that if/when they growl at each other you sharply correct it. Fine. Well they wouldn't look at each other. At all. If they could have, they would have put their paws over their ears and went "la, la, la, la.....". Then I'm not sure what happened. Ginger growled, Missy lunged at her, and then Missy slipped out of her collar and ran for the truck. Ginger got scratched on the nose, I had some pretty big scratches on the back of my leg, but no other damage. Since then, we've not allowed them together at all. It does seem as if one doesn't start, the other will. Although initially not the aggressor, now the tables have turned, and it's Missy who seems to instigate trouble. And it's all over a look, or some subtle body language. It's never been over anything concrete (food, toy, attention). Strictly pecking order stuff, it seems. And they don't have to like each other. But I do believe that somehow we should be able to make them tolerate each other...no more of this going for blood stuff. Other than with each other, these are 2 stable, (pretty) well-trained, social animals, with no real issues.

[Swiftwind]

Originally Posted by misdemeanorsmom

We even tried a thing they showed me in one of our obedience classes, where we had them both leashed and brought them face to face.

Wow! That's just asking for trouble, right from the very start! I'm not surprised they went at eachother after that. I'm so surprised that an obediance trainer told you to do this!

[Rivsky]

Originally Posted by Swiftwind

Wow! That's just asking for trouble, right from the very start! I'm not surprised they went at eachother after that. I'm so surprised that an obediance trainer told you to do this!

Me too - that's like telling two people they hate each other to stand centimetres apart and eyeball each other - just asking for trouble

[IceyBlueSibes]

Agreed with the others!

ANYHOW, as you said -- it's obviously something very subtle and to tell you the truth, it may be something you cannot really see. A dog can pick up the slightest change in body language - it's amazing if you really think about it.

Make sure you find a BEHAVIORIST. Not a trainer. Some people think they are the same, when they really aren't.

I really hope you can get this sorted out. It's unfortunate to have something like this happen, when as you said, the animals are a big part of your family (your lucky! the other half of my family only likes smaller dogs and aren't true animal lovers like we are). Best of luck, and keep us posted when you find someone to help you!