What the heck!!!!

[misdemeanorsmom]

Started out like any other day, and went to take Missy down to the lake at the end of our block, playing frisbee as we went. All of a sudden, a man and his wife came around the corner of my neighbor's house, and all of a sudden, Missy spit the frisbee out of her mouth, started growling (way down in her belly...mean growl) and charged him!!! He never saw her coming...or heard her. I was yelling come, home, sit, down, whatever the hell might distract her. And she ran up behind him, bit him in the butt, and ran the other way as fast as she could!!! He grabbed a metal lantern (like that lines a walkway), ran after her, was trying to club her in the head, and was screaming and swearing at me to get that f#@$&^g dog. #1 (and he didn't know this) I've had 6 major surgeries in the last 3 years, and I can't run yet. #2, running after a dog only makes them take off in the other direction. #3, she didn't break skin, or even rip his pants, but I'm not trying to minimize. What the hell took over this sweet little girl? She has never been beaten or hit, aggression of any kind is not allowed. What on earth possessed her to charge this man? She has met 2 people in her little 3 year life she didn't like. Other than that, as far as she knows, everybody on this planet is her friend!!! And now that she's charged like that, how do I trust her?

[Rivsky]

Sounds awful for everyone. River seems to take an instant dislike to some people for no reason that I can see but I've never heard of a dog actually going up to someone to bite before. Maybe you need to get in contact with a behaviourist?????

[IceyBlueSibes]

Yikes! What a scary situation. I first of all would have been swearing at the man for chasing after my dog like that. I simply would have asked "Do you prefer to get bit again? Your behavior is asking for it!"

He obviously is not a "dog person". A lot of dogs can really tell when people aren't friendly, or don't like animals. Many of my dogs had that "sense" when someone wasn't comfortable around them or just disliked dogs.

It could have been that they spooked her. Has she been to the vet recently? If not, I'd suggest taking her. A change in behavior, particularly leading to aggression, should always be checked my a vet before anything else is done. Sometimes when an animal is in pain, anything can cause them to "bring it out".

My suggestion would be to keep her leashed from now on. After my Sarge had bit a little kid in the butt (when I first brought him home) he was not allowed outside without a leash, and we did some very heavy obedience and socializing.

What did the man do? Does he plan to report it? If so, keep your shot records handy, and be prepared for a quarantine if he does. Sarge was quarantined for 10 days (only out in the backyard to potty and he had to come straight back in)... kind of like house arrest.

I think your best bet would be like Rivsky said. After a vet visit, talk to a behaviorist. Aggression is something serious and isn't really something we can offer advice for over the internet.

As they say, you should never treat aggression with aggression, so I'd be more worried about this guy chasing after her with something and screaming, and making this an even worse situation than it needed to be.

Good luck.. I'm sorry to hear this happened. Don't you wish they could talk to us and just tell us what was on their mind? Keep us posted.

[Sugardog]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say to take her to the vet and have an MRI or CT scan done.

If she is normally a very friendly dog and this kind of behavior is truely unheard of, then it could be something like a neurological problem.

This happened with my neighbors dog. He went from a friendly, wonderful pet boxer who LOVED children, to an aggressive biter who coudn't be trusted around children. He didn't even show any signs of aggression, he just walked up and bit people, including me. They didn't know what was going on, I couldn't figure it out, so I suggested a vet visit. I was right, the dog had a tumor and had to be put to sleep.

[Spiritus]

Originally Posted by misdemeanorsmom

... All of a sudden, a man and his wife came around the corner of my neighbor's house, and all of a sudden, Missy spit the frisbee out of her mouth, started growling (way down in her belly...mean growl) and charged him!!!

Okay, you were down at the lake, all by yourselves, playing an enjoyable game of fetch. She's busy paying attention to her frisbee, you're busy paying attention to her. All of a sudden she looks up and there is a stranger that wasn't there a second ago. If you two were all alone at the lake and she didn't hear him coming because she was too driven for her frisbee, the startle of all of a sudden having someone there that, in her opinion, didn't belong, would have been enough to bring on this behavior.

I don't consider this one-time thing being a "change in behavior". I would consider this situational - she was protecting you. Inappropriate? Yes, but look at this from her point of view.

Originally Posted by misdemeanorsmom

... And now that she's charged like that, how do I trust her?

I don't think this is the right question. I would more appropriately say "Now that she's ignored my recall, how do I trust her to come back to me if a similar situation happens again?"

Time to go back to training recall work and to enforcing that when you say COME, you really do mean it, no matter what the situation. Recalls are something that needs to be worked on again, and again, and again, in varying situations with little distractions at first, to BIG distractions as you progress. Even with my 6 year old boy, I have to go back to beginner recall work on occasion. Why? Because I get complacent with my recalls, calling multiple times, not enforcing and reinforcing each and every time. It's normal. We're human, and now and then complacency kicks in, and if it so happens that even once we change our expectations (ie. it's okay if you didn't come the first time, I'll just call you again), our dogs, who are forever opportunistic, take that as license NOT to come the first time. I also have a dog that if I tell him to "down", I must say it 3 times before he will down - yes, dogs can count. He has learned that down doesn't mean down until he's heard it three times. They learn this REALLY quickly, and particularly with recalls....

[misdemeanorsmom]

Thanks for the input, guys. I talked to my neighbor, it was her son over doing some work for her. Missy did not break the skin (thank god) and he's not going to sue us.

I wonder if he's encountered her on one of her runaway sessions (she was a juvenile delinquent as a youth), and if he yelled or threw something at her, or kicked at her to get her out of their yard. It was sure weird, the way she saw him and zeroed right in on him!!! His wife was with him and Missy totally ignored her.

[Carrie]

It doesn't matter if he broke the skin or not. Your dog is not safe unleashed around people and certainly shouldn't be having any runaways sessions. If your dog bites someone again, and it certainly could happen, especially now that she's bitten someone, you might not be so lucky. It could mean euthanasia for your dog and a hefty lawsuit for you.

I recommend you get a vet check, as it was mentioned and a reputable, certified behaviorist who believes in gentle training methods in to assess the dog. But nothing takes the place of absolute control over your dog when in public places.

It also doesn't matter if the man did something to your dog. Why was your dog unsupervised and unprotected from someone who may or may not mistreat your dog?

Every dog has a different threshhold for stimuli and it can vary, even within one dog, depending on many, many variables, how he feels that day, how much stress he's already had that day, what types of things worry him. Every dog has a threshhold. Dogs with more stable temperaments may have a higher tolerance than others. The thing is, it is extremely difficult to know where your dog's threshhold is at any given time. People tend to be very trusting of their dogs because they haven't ever bitten before. But maybe before there wasn't a build up of stress or some other factor which caused this threhhold to be lowered. Any dog can bite and will if pressured beyond his individual tolerance level at any given or particular time. Threshholds are not a static thing.

Now that you have seen that your dog has a rather low threhhold for stress of that nature, you will need to be extra cautious. It may be her temperament which never showed up before because all conditions were fine tuned just right to keep her at a comfortable level. It is next to impossible to have the ability to assess what every factor could possibly be which influences her threhhold. We just don't know what all is going on in the mind of a dog. We may know some, but not all. So, trust is an easy thing to fall into but it is wise to keep an open mind and remember that all dogs can bite and will if they're pushed beyond their individual threshhold for stress.

In other words, I don't think your dog has necessarily changed her personality from being friendly to non-friendly in one instance. I believe it is very possible that certain variables in her mind and in her environment, possibly for the whole day or even from before that day changed which brought her to her threshhold limit at that moment and in that context.

I would definitely discuss this with a qualified behaviorist. And do keep your dog under absolute control. Best wishes.

[misdemeanorsmom]

When Missy was a puppy and in training, she was a runner. She ran away every opportunity she had....and she had quite a few. I had a tough time with her when she was little, because I ended up having several surgeries, and I could NOT keep up with her. I couldn't run or lift her for months on end. So, I was wondering if one of those times he may have encountered her in his mother's yard. Again, I am not trying to minimize or justify what she did. I am deeply thankful she did NOT break the skin was my point. I was not letting her out to comb the neighborhood at will. I just couldn't catch her.

[Beryl]

This is good advice and I'm so glad you are taking the right action going forward for Missy.

This is a pet (no pun) peeve of mine. I stopped walking my dogs except at PetsMart or at a place where everyone must have dogs on leash.

-- My toy poodle is super-friendly but who knows about another unleashed dog who might lose control for whatever reason?

-- My min pin loses control around larger dogs. He is leashed so I can correct him. However, his craziness causes an unleashed dog to approach him and lose control. I've had this happen and had to pick up my min pin while fending off unleashed dog! Fortunately, I was in my own driveway so I could run inside my garage.

I don't care how friendly, socialized, and trained dogs seem to be. I wish owners would keep them on leash when off of their own property 100%.

Our area has fines for unleashed dogs but some owners are willing to risk it because they feel that their dogs are such "sweethearts" and deserve to be able to run freely. That really makes me mad because those of us who obey the laws have to suffer.

Misdemeanorsmom - I'm not blaming you for the sins of everyone else but this is an example of why some people are not walking their dogs as much as other demand them to. Some of us are protecting the lives of our dogs.

[misdemeanorsmom]

Oh, I completely understand and I agree!! I have not handled dogs like this in the past, but we live on a one-block long street that ends in a lake. Most of the people in the neighborhood have dogs, and we all take them down to the communal area by the lake to play and run and swim. It's kind of like a mini-private dog park. Against the law? Actually, I believe it is. I guess I've gotten too relaxed because we're in such a sheltered little cove. I forget that I should be reinforcing all of the training basics regularly, or they quit doing them! I'm not making excuses or trying to pass the blame. The whole incident was entirely my fault...I certainly know that! My 1st resposibility as a dog owner is to have her under control at all times. This has proven to me that my control needs work, and she and I need to go back to puppy 101, and do some remedial training. I couldn't live with myself if somebody were hurt due to my negligence.

[Mirg]

Ok, this will probably sound kind of rude towards the guy, but, do you think that guy could have had the smell of drugs on him? Ive experienced something like that when i was about 8 years old. I was playing ball with one of our Golden Retrievers named Ginger. A teen we both knew and i know we both saw him, came down the street. Ginger dropped the ball and ran over to greet him. He petted her and all of a sudden she freaked out and bit his hand. Im pretty sure it wasnt a playful bite either. I know nothing physical was wrong with Ginger becuase she was one of the breeding dogs and the kennel we worked with made sure all the breeding dogs were in good shape and were taken to the vet regularly. Whats weird though, is that my family kind of knows that kid as kind of a druggie. The teen said that Ginger had broken skin on his hand but he never sued us but then he always kept his hand hidden from us. I dont think it was as bad as a bite as he said it was.
I dont know much about dogs and drugs, but maybe its possible that some dogs will get aggressive if they dont like the smell of something, like drugs.

[sammy]

I am 100% with Spiritus on this one.

Is this dog a herding breed by any chance?

No, I do not think this was a "herding" behavior (and I HATE when people use that as an excuse for any sort of innpappropriate behavior) but that would be considered a pretty typical aussie thing to do. They LOOOOOOVE people, are friendly as all get out, but they have a protective streak, so if they sense something is "wrong", somebody "shouldn't" be there, they turn into guard dogs. The bite in the butt is such a herding dog thing to do too, it's part of chasing the bad guy away.

I am in no way excusing this behavior or saying you should be blase about it, but I also wouldn't be hauling the dog off for testing or a trip to a behaviorist either(unless there are also other things going on as well). I would proof a perfect recall and have the dog trail a long line until you know that recall is perfect. To me this sounds like a case of the dog thinking that guy does not belong there, being unnerved by it and thinking he needed to be chased away.

FWIW my aussie LOVES people all sizes, ages. She isn't "reserved" with strangers ever. She loves dogs, cats, everybody. She loves people coming to the door, never barks at people walking by the house, loves everybody at the park and eveywhere we have gone for sports and trials. She appears to be the happy go lucky, not a care in the world wiggle butt.

So... imagine my surprise ,we were at a rally obedience trail in Calgary and in rally the judge follows behind you maybe 10 feet, carrying a clipboard, watching you intently, then writing on the score sheet. They don't talk to you or make eye contact. Well, while we were on course, Rosie left heel postition and ran at the judge. At first I assumed she was just distracted and was saying hi to the judge. I called her and she sort of circled in front of the judge and came back to heel. We continued on. She couldn't seem to concentrate and after a minute or two ran at the judge again, this time huffing and puffing her cheeks out (hilarious to see but she was obviously nervous and agitated- but no barking or growling though. to this day I've never heard her growl or really bark). I should have excused us and exited the ring at that point, but because I was so surprised and my dog had NEVER had an issue with people, I kept on going, set on training through this weird situation. So, the next time she left heel position, she muzzle punched the judge in the shin and came back to me.

In hindsight, Rosie hadn't slept for two nights. She was very nervous where we were staying (that had never happened before either- we travel all the time for trials, clinics, camps etc ) For whatever reason she thought the judge was some sort of psycho stalker and she felt she needed to drive her away. Interestingly, this rally judge had judged us a few times before without any problem and in fact Rosie won a high-in-trial under her. It was totally situational. She perceived the judge's behavior as suspicious and the judge as a threat that she needed to drive away.

I had a chat with the judge after- she called Rosie over and as soon as she spoke to Rosie, Rosie turned all wiggle butt and happy. She was like "oh! You are a normal person? Not a stalker? Well HI!!!!!" The judge fed her some treats etc. The judge is actually an aussie person and thank god was totally understanding and supportive.

I was so horrified and shocked and worried about how I was going to deal with this new "issue". I wondered if it was the sunglasses or hat that the judge was wearing. (dogs who weren't socialised with sunglasses, hats, beards etc can think they are aliens from outer space and recat to them). I talked to a bunch of aussie people, trainers, even Emma Parsons (who wrote Click to Calm) etc and ya, I proofed her working with some weird people walking behind us a bit , but really it was a fluky thing because Rosie was all out of sorts. She has competed in rally many times since and never had a problem-- even with the same judge.

I now know some of the things that set Rosie off and being nervous, on no sleep and sleeping away from home are things I really watch for with her. She will also run at someone who gets up in the night when we stay at my inlaws cabin-- her behavior is TOTALLY different there. She hears a bump in the night and is instantly in high alert mode-- I NEVER see that side of her at home or when we stay at a hotel/motel. I swear if a burgler came to MY house she greet him with a full wiggly bum and show him to the fridge.

Anyway, this is very typical of her breed-- I don't say that to dismiss it. It's something that I have to keep in my mind and always be aware of, but it doesn't mean she is a tempermentally unsound dog. She is an aussie. This quality is in fact written right in to the australian shepherd breed standard-- Rosie's idea of who the "bad guys" are is just not the same as mine. Her idea of what's suspicious is different from mine.

I think it's important to keep in mind that we own DOGS and especially what breeds we own, what their original purpose was and what goes along with that. Lots of dogs were bred to be protective and they can't know whw they should protect from and who is fine - sometimes they get it wrong. Sometimes what seems a weird , suspicious situation to them is just fine to us. Nobody told your dog other people might show up unexpectedly at that beach and obviously *something* about that seemed wrong to your dog. You were probably startled and horrified by your dog reacting that way and your voice probably confirmed for the dog (in her mind) that something was wrong and that only adds to it.

It's alarming and upsetting when this stuff happens but it's a really good reminder that dogs are DOGS and we need to train and proof at a high level if we want to have them off leash. We can't expect them to see everything the same way we do. This isn't a dog being "bad".


Proof a rock solid recall. Proof a really good down and when in doubt keep your dog on a line. You might want to get Leslie Nelsons little book called "Really reliable recall" her method is fabulous -- she put super reliable recall on her afgans (?Sp) (a breed not known for trainability or being trustworthy off leash) and she explains what you need to do.
If you get in a situation like this down yell at your dog-- make sure you keep your voice happy, relaxed and sing songy and say your recall cue the way you normally do.

Anyway, sorry this is so long.I totally empathise with this situtaion. Hope that helps.

[Spiritus]

Originally Posted by misdemeanorsmom

#1 (and he didn't know this) I've had 6 major surgeries in the last 3 years, and I can't run yet.

Just did a quick re-read.... if you can't run after your dog, your dog should not be off leash in an "uncontrolled" area like the lake or a park, no matter how good your recall. This is nothing against your or your physical limitations really, but I am thinking about the safety of your dog. Things could happen when she goes out for the frisbee - she could impale herself on a stick, land incorrectly and break a leg, another dog could come out of nowhere and take her on a merry romp, or worse, attack her, and you would be nowhere close enough to intervene.

Go to your closest feed store (farm supply), and buy a horse lunge line. They're 30' long, which is ample length for good games of fetch - you just have to control your throw.