Spinoff: How to handle "attacks"?

[k9hullio_sam]

Just was wondering what everyone would do in a situation where your dog snapped at you. What would be your course of action?

Of course I understand there is a difference with "fear biting" and that needs to be handled differently, as well as different breeds and how they have been trained.

So--what would you do if your dog snapped at you and...
it wasn't fear bitting
you raised the dog
it wasn't an accident (not sure how that would happen though)
any other odd situation you can think of....
How about it??

[mom2cocoa]

A physical evaluation to make sure there wasn't a health problem. And I'd get serious about practicing NILF. Personally, I think non fear aggression "attacks" on owners would be very rare. But I would never react to violence with violence.

[k9hullio_sam]

Hmmm...so what do you do WHEN they "attack" you. I wouldn't think just saying 'no' would be enough.

I know non-"doggie people" with dogs that DID snap at them and they DID respond with violence. Needless to say the dog never did it again and he was an angel up untill the time someone stole him out of their yard.

I hear all the time that "you are never supposed to take a treat from a dog, or disturb a dog while its eating or take a toy from it." And all the time I hear stories of people sleeping with their dogs and they could never move their dog because they will growl and snap at them. So...I think there are a lot of people out there that their dogs DO get away with growling and snapping because it is "normal."

[mom2cocoa]

First of all, the person who responded with violence to their dog and their dog never did it again was lucky. A dog with a different temperment may not have taken violence the same way. Some dogs, if you treat them with violence are just going to become more aggressive. So it will become a big circle. And even if the dog is the type this one was, why would you want to handle it that way. Why wouldn't you want to correct the problem in a way that won't ruin the trust between you and your dog?

As for dog who does get away with growling and snapping, those owners need to implement NILF. Very consistently. If I had a dog that did not get down off my bed when told to he would no longer be allowed on the bed. But responding to a dog with violence is never the answer. If someone can not get it under control on their own using training and NILF, then they need to get help from a good professional trainer or behaviorist. Never, never is being violent with your dog the answer.

[AVA]

heres what I did...
scenerio is the dog sleeping on my pillow when I went to bed and I went to move her, she growled at me. I growled back and picked her totally up, gave her a little jiggle, (not a shake) and put her on the floor. She was in that "just woke up fog" I got myself comfy in bed and then called her up with "ok, come to bed" This was a few years ago and I can't remember it ever happening again, now I just say
"get over" and she moves.

[Ritz459]

I think the only time I've been growled at by one of my dogs was when I reached down to pet Blackie when he had a steak bone. It was one of those "trial growls", like, "let's see if I can get away with this."
I wasn't going to tolorate that at all, so I moved away and called him to me, which he did, leaving the bone behind. I praised him and then picked up the bone.
I gave it back to him, but I kept ahold of one end. When he was fine with that, I let go and stroked him while he was eating it and kept placing my hand by his bone. I've never had a problem since.

When we were petsitting a Cocker mix named Toby and he without warning attacked my brother's girlfriend who walked in the door, I just grabbed him and threw him on the floor. Not the smartest thing to do, but I had to get him off of Gabe. If he had been a bigger dog, I wouldn't have done that, but since I could manhandle him, that was my first response. He was extreamly tense, his mouth was set hard, and he was NOT happy with me. After that incident, I put him on a strict NILIF diet, and he never once tried to bite me. When he would growl at my little sister, he would get a firm command from me and if he didn't comply, he'd get a correction with the leash. We survived the week without any serious bites and Toby was getting a bit better. When we gave him back to his owners and we told him what had happened and that they needed to get some serious training done with him, they laughed it off. Toby has now been put to sleep for attack his owners when they failed to comply with what he wanted them to do. They didn't listen to my advice, they babied Toby, and the end reslut was his death.

[qwertyasu]

If my dog growled at me I would faint! LOL After I woke up from the shock I would acess what happened and then take action

[TinyAlbinoDancer]

A verbal correction has always been my response when Aysa snaps/growls at other dogs (or growls at the vet who was inspecting his rear ), and that's all it takes with him. Most of the times he's growled or snapped have been when he was stepped on by another dog while sleeping, and I understand his desire for space where he sleeps and respect it. It's kind of a struggle because I have very low tolerance for dogs that exhibit any kind of aggression (not counting Missie. She's spoiled and bratty and I love her. lol), but you have to realize that the dog deserves respect and has valid needs, too, whether or not his need mirrors a valid human need. So him responding to a valid need for space may not be a need I relate to, but to him it's important, so I will protect him in that area.

On the other hand, there was that Chi, Roxy, I had for awhile that was very aggressive. When she growled or bit me I was at loss what to do. Which is why I gave her back to her owner. I couldn't afford an expert and couldn't deal with her.

[flyndog]

Sometimes, delivering corrections to a growling dog only results in a dog who learns not to growl. When that happens, you've eliminated a valuable threat response. Instead of a normal threat sequence such as stiffening, growling, snapping, and biting, the dog might go right to snapping or biting without the warning.
The story of the Cocker was a sad one. IMO, after the initial management to prevent injury, a protocol of desensitization and counter-conditioning to strangers and children would have been the preferred intervention. I'm curious, Ritz. Why a leash correction in that situation?

[flyndog]

I'm curious, Ritz. After the initial management of the Cockrer, why a leash corrections instead implementing a desensitization and counter-conditioning protocol?

[TinyAlbinoDancer]

Originally Posted by flyndog

Sometimes, delivering corrections to a growling dog only results in a dog who learns not to growl. When that happens, you've eliminated a valuable threat response. Instead of a normal threat sequence such as stiffening, growling, snapping, and biting, the dog might go right to snapping or biting without the warning.

I've heard this, and unfortunately my verbal correction is more of a knee-jerk reaction than a logical one. Aysa's growl/bark is startling because I am not accustomed to it, so I jump and squeal "Aysa!" lol I've gotten better, though. My main goal is to protect him from situations where he feels threatened, and I work hard to learn his body language so I can tell when he is uncomfortable--long before he'd need to growl. With Aysa it is difficult about 50% of the time because he wakes from a dead sleep with a growl/bark (the sound is a combination of both and he's never bitten anyone or anything), so there are no warning signs for me to notice.

I should've noted that so others didn't follow my example. I should mention too that in cases where I've missed the language leading up to the growl and he's already gotten to the growl, I still verbally "correct" him ("Aysa, it's ok" in a gentle but firm tone) as I move to get whatever away from him.

[Ritz459]

Originally Posted by flyndog

I'm curious, Ritz. After the initial management of the Cockrer, why a leash corrections instead implementing a desensitization and counter-conditioning protocol?

His growling at Melanie was a possessive issue. If he was on the bed next to "his" person (namely my mom and I) and Melanie wanted to sit by mom, he'd stare at her, growl, and tighten up. I made him get off the bed and wouldn't let him get back on. No bed to be possessive over, no problem.

He was also like this with his toys. If she walked by while he was chewing on a toy, he would growl at her, tighten up, and stare at her. The correction wasn't so much of a correction, but a jerk on the lead to get is attention off of her, onto me, and away from the toy. Then I'd give him a command and when he complied, I'd praise him. If he didn't comply, I did give him a gentle (I'm not talking a full out yank with the leash) jerk on the lead to get his attention again.

I know that dog aggression is totally different than human aggression, but this worked with Blackie and his dog aggression, so that was really the only thing I knew how to do. With Blackie, whenever he started to puff up and stare down another dog, I'd give him a tug with the leash to gain his attention, and then tell him to heel. When he heeled he got treats. If he decided to stare down the dog again, he got another tug and a redirective command from me. He is now good around strange leashed dogs, unless they are acting up.

The only book I've read on the matter was part of Brian Kilcommon's book "Good owners, Great dogs" and the part about having a possessive dog was to get him to do something so he couldn't guard a toy. If he's guarding a toy, make him come to you, because he can't guard the toy and come to you at the same time.

I do agree though, I think desensitizing and counter-conditioning would have been the best thing.
How could I have done the desensitizing and counter-conditioning in such a short period (a little less than a week) and with a six year old child, as well as two eleven year olds, in the house?

[eyescene]

RE: stare down the dog.

I saw Tillie and Windy doing this this morning. Both were doing the stare than Windy jumped first...I thought they were playing. It sure seemed like it!

Also I want to say thanks for posting all this. I am learning a lot here.

Tillie has lately gotten to be a good alarm, barking at strange noises. But she also has gotten growley when being picked up....what gives? anyone?

[k9hullio_sam]

Phew, thanks everyone for posting!

So....you guys are saying that just an initial voice correction is enough? Then implement NILIF?

Can someone post like....a list of something of what to do when a dog growls and snaps? Also, can someone explain NILIF??

THANKS!

[IceyBlueSibes]

Originally Posted by eyescene

RE: stare down the dog.

I saw Tillie and Windy doing this this morning. Both were doing the stare than Windy jumped first...I thought they were playing. It sure seemed like it!

Also I want to say thanks for posting all this. I am learning a lot here.

Tillie has lately gotten to be a good alarm, barking at strange noises. But she also has gotten growley when being picked up....what gives? anyone?

A stare down is not always aggression. Most dogs do it in play. Mine do it all the time from across the yard. Sheiba will slowly "stalk" while staring down one of the others, and then take off after them (if she is in a playful enough mood). Other signs that would indicate an aggressive stare is the dog being very stiff, tail up, hackles raised, head straight up, teeth baring, etc. All dogs may not show every sign, and some dogs don't show any at all. However, I don't think your puppies are being aggressive. They're just doing whats normal play!

In what instances is Tillie growling when you pick her up? As in, WHEN do you pick her up (while she's playing, while she's sleeping, etc)?

What I would do is pick her up on a consistant basis, and everytime you pick her up, give her a nice piece of hot dog. Show her that being picked up is a good thing. She should only get the hot dogs when you pick her up (or whatever YUMMY treat you want to use). Do not correct her for it. Just ignore it and keep things up-beat and happy.


As far as my dog being aggressive towards me...

I'd probably try to keep as calm as I could, and use my notorious "HEY!" which means --- You really are doing something you shouldn't be doing, and you better listen quick --- It's normally a natural response for my own dogs that I have. Then, they generally are put into timeout for 5 minutes in the bathroom. Kelso had gotten snippy/growly with me when he was a bit younger. He wasn't out-right aggressive, but it was being pushy enough. He was put into time-out and put on NILIF.

NILIF is "Nothing In Life Is Free". Meaning, the dog cannot recieve anything rewarding without doing something first.

For instance, feeding. The dog is not allowed to sit in the kitchen as I prepare their meal. They must sit-stay nicely OUT of the kitchen. Once I walk out, I ask them to come. When I get to their feeding spot, I ask them to sit, and wait. I place the bowl down. I wait for about 3 seconds and then release them. If they do not listen to what I ask. The food goes up for 5 minutes and we try again.

If they want outside, they must sit at the door and wait before I open it.

If they want to be pet, they must give me a paw before recieving any.

If they want to play, they must sit-lay before starting.

I'm sure you get the drift. The dog cannot be rewarded (being fed, going outside, playing, petting) unless it performs something for me.