Is it possible....

Ritz459 · 02-13-2005, 12:56 PM

Ok, I didn't know quite where to put this. And this is also a little bit of a rant (only a very little bit) and right now I'm going

Ok, so is it possible for a stubborn little mutt named Rose to do obedeince? Because on our walks, it takes her a friken 30sec to a min just to do one friken sit!!!

And that is without her three highest stress factors: strange people, strange dogs, and strange noises. Not to mention strange smells and strange soroundings. So, do you guys think it is possible or am I just nuts for thinking I can do obedience with her?

(Ok, had to rant a little bit here, because I couldn't start ranting at Rose..........

)

poodlesmom · 02-13-2005, 01:21 PM

I personally don't think any dog is too old to do obedience.

I think signing up for some obedience classes is a great way start. However, if you want to do it on your own I would suggest doing the sessions where there aren't distractions such as inside or in your backyard if it is private. Once she is responding well then you can start to slowly introduce distractions but don't overwhelm her in the beginning.

Ritz459 · 02-13-2005, 01:25 PM

I don't think she is too old, just too stubborn. I'm going to be doing obedience with her in 4H, so I'd just thought I'd see what she could do on the walks. When we are in our yard, she listens just fine. It is when we are out of are yard that things start going down hill. I was getting even more frusterated because I knew she could do a sit, because she does them all of the time a home.

***Carrie*** · 02-13-2005, 04:59 PM

I don't think she's stubborn. I think you just haven't found what floats her boat. Find what motivates her. Let her know that it's work time, but it can be fun. Is she steak or cheese motivated? Cut up some tiny treats and put them in a baggie in your pocket and grab your leash. Ask her to "let's go." Make it sound like you're going to a party. When she comes along, praise her and give her a treat. Then....down to business: Ask for a sit and hold the treat up over her head a little and push back. Hurry, act like you're in a hurry. Then praise and treat and hurry again "let's go." Trot a little, turn, "yeah!!" Stop quickly and say, "sit!" Help her again with your hand gesture with the treat in it. Just perk things up a bit, moving a little quicker and a little more exciteably and see if she'll hurry up and sit for you and get a little more enthusiastic about training. Be sure and praise and treat and make this lots of fun, but be sure to enforce what you ask, even if you need to assist her a little.

Try getting her to "watch" you too more, get her attention right on you. Eye contact = treat. And like Poodles mom said, introduce distractions gradually without freaking her out. And try getting her use to those things which stress her by gradual exposure and an association with very, very pleasant things....treats, cheerful voice, playtime, toys....whatever.

Ritz459 · 02-14-2005, 11:00 AM

I'm thinking about teaching her the 'watch me' command. Blackie already knows how to do that (I say Blackie, he looks at me, he gets a treat.) but Rose doesn't yet. And another thing I forgot to mention, when I have treats, she will listen to me fine, but when she knows I don't have treats she won't listen to me. How can I wean her off of the treats and have her listen to me even when I don't have them?

Ritz459 · 02-14-2005, 11:01 AM

Oh, and also, to socialize her more, I've been thinking about asking Mom if I can bring her into Petsmart. Is that taking things to fast, or would that be a good place to start?

***Carrie*** · 02-14-2005, 11:33 AM

As long as she's enjoying herself, it's not going to fast. Socializing is so vitally important, that if you can do anything at all, that is helpful. If something seems to frightening or worrying to her, take it down a notch and find somewhere to go that is just a little out of her comfort zone and work up.

How you get her so she doesn't ONLY perform when you have treats is to treat every time for a while....until she gets really good at the "trick." Then start treating randomly...every few times she does the trick. Don't make a pattern, such as every other time, but skip around so she never knows when she's going to get a treat, but figures she will at some point so she better mind her P's and Q's.

It's just like when you do something that has always brought results before and now all of a sudden, it's not. What do you do? You try again....and again. Finally, if it doesn't work, you'll stop trying, so the dog needs to be rewarded before she gives up and doesn't try again. But holding back a treat for a few times will keep her interested and make her try a little harder.

My remote control batteries were getting bad. I would push a button to change the channel. It wouldn't work. Gee wiz! It always worked before, so I pushed the button again...a little harder too...still wouldn't work. So, I gave up and put new batteries in. But if it had worked for some reason (maybe merely a loose connection that righted itself) I would have learned that if I pushed the button harder, better and more, that is what would give me results (my reward, the channel changing) LOL

That's why we often inadvertantly train our dogs to do rotten behavior. They do something that bugs us...whine, complain that we're not doing something they want us to do, like throw a ball. We ignore them for a while, but they already know that whining as in the past brought results. So, they whine some more....nothing, no payoff. They try again. They absolutely are sure this will work...always has. Finally, we get so sick of the whining that we decide to pay attention to the dog, either tell it off (not much of a punishment....it's just our voice and we're paying attention to them.) or we throw the ball. Viola! The dog got his reward. And he learned not only does whining bring the reward, but he learned that he needs to whine harder, better and for longer. He learned he can whine for an hour and that will get results. He learned not to give up too soon. LOL.

doberkim · 02-14-2005, 04:52 PM

just want to reiterate -
right now she is NOWHERE near the point where you are ready to withdraw the reward (food). dogs do not generalize and she is good at home but not out, which means you need to do more training outside. every time you introduce something new, its back to rewarding with whatever you use. and even if its a behavior that is known, there is no reason to stop rewarding it here and there.

***Carrie*** · 02-14-2005, 05:17 PM

Quote:

How you get her so she doesn't ONLY perform when you have treats is to treat every time for a while....until she gets really good at the "trick." Then start treating randomly

Yes, and what I do is when it comes time to treat randomly, that doesn't mean I don't praise verbally. I always reward every small step in the right direction. But as far as a dog becoming habituated to getting food treats every time, that can be a problem when you forget to bring treats in your pocket and you're out somewhere and the dog won't mind you. So, that's why, once the dog knows the task well, you can then start giving food treats randomly, but keep giving them along with praise.

I've done that with Lyric and there are many times lately where I don't have treats with me. He'll do fine most of the time but if he starts slipping and taking me for granted, (lol) I'll get out the treats again....kind of rekindle his interest if it starts to wane.

doberkim · 02-14-2005, 08:33 PM

*is confused about why carrie is quoting and responding to herself*

***Carrie*** · 02-14-2005, 08:59 PM

A reiteration within a reiteration. LOL.

Ritz459 · 02-15-2005, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doberkim

*is confused about why carrie is quoting and responding to herself*

lol I'm going to start working with her more and then once she is better, we'll take her into Petsmart and just let her check everything out. And we'll buy her a yummy treat while we are in there while she is being good so that will raise her confidence level. (Hopefully anyway.

) And I do know enough not to reward her while she is being nervous, since that will only raise her nervousness level.

Ok, thanks for the replies.

gaddylovesdogs · 02-15-2005, 01:17 PM

I hope everything works out for you. Out of my three, Colby is the one that does best around strange, scary things. One time we brought her to the pet store and she freaked out, but now, whenever we bring her there, she rules the store!

***Carrie*** · 02-15-2005, 02:05 PM

Watch out for those big bins of cookies. Lyric knows exactly where to go straight away no matter whether he's been in a particular pet store or not. He drags me to the cookie bins and the toy bins. "Please, oh please can I have some? I'll be good." LOL.

Sounds like you have a good plan Ritz! You go girl! LOL.

Ritz459 · 02-15-2005, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carrie

Watch out for those big bins of cookies. Lyric knows exactly where to go straight away no matter whether he's been in a particular pet store or not. He drags me to the cookie bins and the toy bins. "Please, oh please can I have some? I'll be good." LOL.

Sounds like you have a good plan Ritz! You go girl! LOL.

LOL Yep, I will have to watch out for those. lol There is this big long isle(sp?) that has nothing but rawhide treats, smoked pig ears, bones, etc. That we'll have to stay far away from unless she is being good! lol

02-13-2005, 12:56 PM	#1 (permalink)
Ritz459 "Nothing is ever easy" Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Indiana Posts: 5,899 Blog Entries: 3 Rep Power: 240	Is it possible.... Ok, I didn't know quite where to put this. And this is also a little bit of a rant (only a very little bit) and right now I'm going Ok, so is it possible for a stubborn little mutt named Rose to do obedeince? Because on our walks, it takes her a friken 30sec to a min just to do one friken sit!!! And that is without her three highest stress factors: strange people, strange dogs, and strange noises. Not to mention strange smells and strange soroundings. So, do you guys think it is possible or am I just nuts for thinking I can do obedience with her? (Ok, had to rant a little bit here, because I couldn't start ranting at Rose.......... )
	__________________ ~Blackie, Rose, Chloe (dogs), Pheobe (cat), Casey, Dameon (ferrets), Joey ('Tiel), Dot, Louie (cavies), Pickachu (hamster),

02-13-2005, 01:25 PM	#3 (permalink)
Ritz459 "Nothing is ever easy" Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Indiana Posts: 5,899 Blog Entries: 3 Rep Power: 240	I don't think she is too old, just too stubborn. I'm going to be doing obedience with her in 4H, so I'd just thought I'd see what she could do on the walks. When we are in our yard, she listens just fine. It is when we are out of are yard that things start going down hill. I was getting even more frusterated because I knew she could do a sit, because she does them all of the time a home.
	__________________ ~Blackie, Rose, Chloe (dogs), Pheobe (cat), Casey, Dameon (ferrets), Joey ('Tiel), Dot, Louie (cavies), Pickachu (hamster),

02-14-2005, 11:00 AM	#5 (permalink)
Ritz459 "Nothing is ever easy" Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Indiana Posts: 5,899 Blog Entries: 3 Rep Power: 240	I'm thinking about teaching her the 'watch me' command. Blackie already knows how to do that (I say Blackie, he looks at me, he gets a treat.) but Rose doesn't yet. And another thing I forgot to mention, when I have treats, she will listen to me fine, but when she knows I don't have treats she won't listen to me. How can I wean her off of the treats and have her listen to me even when I don't have them?
	__________________ ~Blackie, Rose, Chloe (dogs), Pheobe (cat), Casey, Dameon (ferrets), Joey ('Tiel), Dot, Louie (cavies), Pickachu (hamster),

02-14-2005, 11:01 AM	#6 (permalink)
Ritz459 "Nothing is ever easy" Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Indiana Posts: 5,899 Blog Entries: 3 Rep Power: 240	Oh, and also, to socialize her more, I've been thinking about asking Mom if I can bring her into Petsmart. Is that taking things to fast, or would that be a good place to start?
	__________________ ~Blackie, Rose, Chloe (dogs), Pheobe (cat), Casey, Dameon (ferrets), Joey ('Tiel), Dot, Louie (cavies), Pickachu (hamster),

02-14-2005, 11:33 AM	#7 (permalink)
*Carrie* Super Moderator Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: north panhandle of Idaho Posts: 7,551 Rep Power: 292	As long as she's enjoying herself, it's not going to fast. Socializing is so vitally important, that if you can do anything at all, that is helpful. If something seems to frightening or worrying to her, take it down a notch and find somewhere to go that is just a little out of her comfort zone and work up. How you get her so she doesn't ONLY perform when you have treats is to treat every time for a while....until she gets really good at the "trick." Then start treating randomly...every few times she does the trick. Don't make a pattern, such as every other time, but skip around so she never knows when she's going to get a treat, but figures she will at some point so she better mind her P's and Q's. It's just like when you do something that has always brought results before and now all of a sudden, it's not. What do you do? You try again....and again. Finally, if it doesn't work, you'll stop trying, so the dog needs to be rewarded before she gives up and doesn't try again. But holding back a treat for a few times will keep her interested and make her try a little harder. My remote control batteries were getting bad. I would push a button to change the channel. It wouldn't work. Gee wiz! It always worked before, so I pushed the button again...a little harder too...still wouldn't work. So, I gave up and put new batteries in. But if it had worked for some reason (maybe merely a loose connection that righted itself) I would have learned that if I pushed the button harder, better and more, that is what would give me results (my reward, the channel changing) LOL That's why we often inadvertantly train our dogs to do rotten behavior. They do something that bugs us...whine, complain that we're not doing something they want us to do, like throw a ball. We ignore them for a while, but they already know that whining as in the past brought results. So, they whine some more....nothing, no payoff. They try again. They absolutely are sure this will work...always has. Finally, we get so sick of the whining that we decide to pay attention to the dog, either tell it off (not much of a punishment....it's just our voice and we're paying attention to them.) or we throw the ball. Viola! The dog got his reward. And he learned not only does whining bring the reward, but he learned that he needs to whine harder, better and for longer. He learned he can whine for an hour and that will get results. He learned not to give up too soon. LOL.
	Last edited by Carrie : 02-14-2005 at 11:39 AM.

02-13-2005, 01:21 PM	#2 (permalink)
poodlesmom Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: upstate NY Posts: 1,389 Rep Power: 114	I personally don't think any dog is too old to do obedience. I think signing up for some obedience classes is a great way start. However, if you want to do it on your own I would suggest doing the sessions where there aren't distractions such as inside or in your backyard if it is private. Once she is responding well then you can start to slowly introduce distractions but don't overwhelm her in the beginning.

02-13-2005, 04:59 PM	#4 (permalink)
*Carrie* Super Moderator Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: north panhandle of Idaho Posts: 7,551 Rep Power: 292	I don't think she's stubborn. I think you just haven't found what floats her boat. Find what motivates her. Let her know that it's work time, but it can be fun. Is she steak or cheese motivated? Cut up some tiny treats and put them in a baggie in your pocket and grab your leash. Ask her to "let's go." Make it sound like you're going to a party. When she comes along, praise her and give her a treat. Then....down to business: Ask for a sit and hold the treat up over her head a little and push back. Hurry, act like you're in a hurry. Then praise and treat and hurry again "let's go." Trot a little, turn, "yeah!!" Stop quickly and say, "sit!" Help her again with your hand gesture with the treat in it. Just perk things up a bit, moving a little quicker and a little more exciteably and see if she'll hurry up and sit for you and get a little more enthusiastic about training. Be sure and praise and treat and make this lots of fun, but be sure to enforce what you ask, even if you need to assist her a little. Try getting her to "watch" you too more, get her attention right on you. Eye contact = treat. And like Poodles mom said, introduce distractions gradually without freaking her out. And try getting her use to those things which stress her by gradual exposure and an association with very, very pleasant things....treats, cheerful voice, playtime, toys....whatever.

02-14-2005, 04:52 PM	#8 (permalink)
doberkim doberslave Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 830 Rep Power: 106	just want to reiterate - right now she is NOWHERE near the point where you are ready to withdraw the reward (food). dogs do not generalize and she is good at home but not out, which means you need to do more training outside. every time you introduce something new, its back to rewarding with whatever you use. and even if its a behavior that is known, there is no reason to stop rewarding it here and there.
	__________________ bowies modern love rn cgc snd

02-14-2005, 08:33 PM	#10 (permalink)
doberkim doberslave Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 830 Rep Power: 106	is confused about why carrie is quoting and responding to herself
	__________________ bowies modern love rn cgc snd

02-14-2005, 08:59 PM	#11 (permalink)
*Carrie* Super Moderator Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: north panhandle of Idaho Posts: 7,551 Rep Power: 292	A reiteration within a reiteration. LOL.

02-15-2005, 01:17 PM	#13 (permalink)
gaddylovesdogs don't have a cow! Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: USA Posts: 3,426 Rep Power: 155	I hope everything works out for you. Out of my three, Colby is the one that does best around strange, scary things. One time we brought her to the pet store and she freaked out, but now, whenever we bring her there, she rules the store!
	__________________ Looking for a new pet? Search www.petfinder.com for your next love. If you have a heart, please help the victims of Hurricane Katrina. www.redcross.org

02-15-2005, 02:05 PM	#14 (permalink)
*Carrie* Super Moderator Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: north panhandle of Idaho Posts: 7,551 Rep Power: 292	Watch out for those big bins of cookies. Lyric knows exactly where to go straight away no matter whether he's been in a particular pet store or not. He drags me to the cookie bins and the toy bins. "Please, oh please can I have some? I'll be good." LOL. Sounds like you have a good plan Ritz! You go girl! LOL.

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