Not as Alpha as I thought

[muggsmom]

I had an eye-opener last night. I thought I was acting the Alpha with Muggs - walking through doors first, making him wait before eating, etc. But last night Muggs was sleeping on my side of the bed. I told him to move, which he did, albeit slowly. I laid down and he started to paw me. He pawed me 9 times before he laid down beside me. I couldn't believe it. He was telling ME to move!! Obviously his idea of Alpha and mine are different. No wonder he won't listen to me outside when he sees another dog. I have a lot of work to do.

[BoxMeIn21]

MMMM....throw that Alpha crap out the window and leave it back in the dark ages where it belongs. You want another eye opener? All that hokie stuff about going through the door first, eating first, etc...in regards to Alpha status has been disproven by many well known and well respected scientists and Applied Animal Behaviorists. Dogs are not wolves and we are not a dogs. Our dogs know we are not dogs so why do we try emmulate pack behavior when there is no way on earth we as humans can pull it off? Instead, be a leader. Have you heard of NILIF? Nothing In Life Is Free? Here is a link that will explain that a little more. Nothing In Life Is Free

Also, I have included some behavioral articles that will explain the whole "Alpha" and "Dominance" myths.

The History and Misconceptions of the Dominance Theory

The Macho Myth

Why Can't a Dog Be More Like a Dog?

A couple books that I have found very insightful:

The Other End of The Leash, by Patricia McConnell
The Culture Clash, by Jean Donaldson

Both of these ladies are pioneer's in the field of canine learning and behavior.

[Ritz459]

Chloe has been slowly trying to test the boundaries that have been laid down for her. I tell you, the adolescent stage. lol She's gotten more pushy about attention and is become a bit more bark happy.
That is easy enough to curb, though, as a quick "sit" command from me and when she complies I can love on her with her requesting it, not demanding it.

On the flip side, she has gotten better behaved as she's getting more mature. She will be a very good dog once this puppy stage is over, as the only thing I have issues with her are about puppy things.

The best way to show your dog you mean business is to just impliment basic obedience into everything that you do (NILIF). That has worked wonders with Chloe, and it has also worked with Blackie and Rose, although they get a much more relaxed form of it because they are so well behaved.

[muggsmom]

Instead, be a leader.

You're right, I should have used Leader instead of Alpha. Thanks for the articles, very informative. My bookstore is ordering Patricia McConnell's books for me, others have recommended them as well. I don't try to control Muggs physically, I agree that belongs in the Dark Ages. I have been trying to control the resources and rewarding with treats and praise for good behaviour. I have to go through the door first otherwise he bolts out and pulls me down the hall. I have heard about NILIF and have been trying it, but I catch myself patting him after he's put his head on my lap etc. It just surprised me that he was so adamant that I move for him. Maybe he's going through the Extinction Phase, which is a good thing, if I can remember to always make him work for what he wants.

I tell you, the adolescent stage. lol

How long does that usually last? Muggs is Shar Pei/English Pointer and he's 2 1/2.

[Flutterby]

My youngest Weim turned 5 years old in June...I'm still waiting for her to get out of the exasperating teenager stage... ROFL!!!


Lanie
And The Zoo
Royal Star Estates
freewebs.com/royalstarestates

[Flutterby]

PS - If I didn't stay on my toes at all times and make a constant conscious effort to be a strong leader, Akina (the 5 year old Weim) would run me right over in no time at all.

[Kuchi]

I think the adolescent stage will definetly vary upon dogs. Kuchi doesn't test me as much anymore, but he may hit another point and try to. The worst time was 10 months old, I enrolled in an another obedience class once I noticed what he was doing. Some places have walk in obedience to brush up on skills if you don't want to do a full 8 or 12 weeks class if you feel the need for any.

[c0_re]

Originally Posted by BoxMeIn21

MMMM....throw that Alpha crap out the window and leave it back in the dark ages where it belongs. You want another eye opener? All that hokie stuff about going through the door first, eating first, etc...in regards to Alpha status has been disproven by many well known and well respected scientists and Applied Animal Behaviorists. Dogs are not wolves and we are not a dogs. Our dogs know we are not dogs so why do we try emmulate pack behavior when there is no way on earth we as humans can pull it off? Instead, be a leader. Have you heard of NILIF? Nothing In Life Is Free? Here is a link that will explain that a little more. Nothing In Life Is Free

Also, I have included some behavioral articles that will explain the whole "Alpha" and "Dominance" myths.

The History and Misconceptions of the Dominance Theory

The Macho Myth

Why Can't a Dog Be More Like a Dog?

A couple books that I have found very insightful:

The Other End of The Leash, by Patricia McConnell
The Culture Clash, by Jean Donaldson

Both of these ladies are pioneer's in the field of canine learning and behavior.

This type of attitude is just as bad as the people that think positive re-enforcement is a big waste of time, when will people learn it takes a combination of many methodologies to succsffuly\fully integrate a dog into your life.

[Carrie]

MMMM....throw that Alpha crap out the window and leave it back in the dark ages where it belongs. You want another eye opener? All that hokie stuff about going through the door first, eating first, etc...in regards to Alpha status has been disproven by many well known and well respected scientists and Applied Animal Behaviorists. Dogs are not wolves and we are not a dogs. Our dogs know we are not dogs so why do we try emmulate pack behavior when there is no way on earth we as humans can pull it off? Instead, be a leader. Have you heard of NILIF? Nothing In Life Is Free? Here is a link that will explain that a little more. Nothing In Life Is Free

Also, I have included some behavioral articles that will explain the whole "Alpha" and "Dominance" myths.

The History and Misconceptions of the Dominance Theory

The Macho Myth

Why Can't a Dog Be More Like a Dog?

A couple books that I have found very insightful:

The Other End of The Leash, by Patricia McConnell
The Culture Clash, by Jean Donaldson

Both of these ladies are pioneer's in the field of canine learning and behavior.
__________________

Actually though, there were pioneers like scientists B.F. Skinner and Pavlov way back in the early 1900s. They really got things rolling. Skinner actually found the benefit in a conditioned reinforcer when his lever that released grain into his pigeon's cage made a clicking sound just before the grain was delivered. He discovered the conditioned reflex the pigeons had when they heard only the click, signifying that food was on it's way. He actually recommended to dog trainers the little cricket toy as a clicker, like we have today.

I'm curious how you know that your dog was trying to move you, that that was what he had in mind. Could it have been that he was trying to get comfortable or perhaps give you some affection? Do you think that he is logically thinking that he needs to move you off the bed for the reason that he is so important? I think care must be given that we don't jump to conclusions about dogs and wolf pack behavior. And anyway, even wolf pack behavior isn't all it's cracked up to be. From what I understand from my studies on wolves, I don't think wolves give a rip where the other one sleeps. It doesn't look like they care too terribly much about anything the others are doing as long as they get to eat, breed and reproduce so the species can evolve. LOL.

As far as your dog coming and putting his head on your lap, I don't think you have to be so extreme as to ignore him every time. If a friend put her hand on your shoulder affectionately, would you ignore her? I think if the dog starts becoming demanding and making a pest out of himself, then go ahead and don't reinforce it all the time. But as good a plan as NILIF is, I think if carried to extremes, it can cause some stress in dogs.

It's a lot less wear and tear to teach the dog his manners by default, that is....where he learns to sit for his food bowl without being told. When you are constantly barking out commands and the dog doesn't get to "choose" sometimes, I think it takes some of the fun out of training for him and he can get sluggish on the uptake.

If you just stand there with his bowl, for instace and wait, he will probably sit on his own. (dogs usually sit when they are guessing what you want). Then you put the bowl down. There's his answer. Sitting and waiting gets me my food. No cue is necessary.

I don't say anything to my dogs at this point. All I do is reach for their bowl on the counter and they sit politely and wait. This is putting the choice and the self control (responsibility) on the dog. He likes to work for his food. This is more gratifying because it's more mentally stimulating for him. My take on it all, anyhow.

Reinforce pushy behavior and you'll get pushy behavior. Reinforce wanted behavior and that will be repeated.

Anyhow, try to look for simpler answers first before jumping to conclusions about pack behavior and cliches like "alpha" and "dominance." This is so misunderstood and complex and woefully over-used. It's always better to look for the simplist answer first. And you'll find that in the understanding of learning behavior.

[Cherokee]

Originally Posted by BoxMeIn21

Instead, be a leader.

Newsflash...being the "Alpha" is being the leader. You've merely chosen another word for it that makes it sound less dominating.

[Carrie]

Alpha is the letter A, the first letter in the Greek alphabet. It is also used to mean the first. Yes, we need to lead, guide or teach our dogs. The word, "alpha" adds no additional information when talking about our dogs and our relationship with them, IMO.

But it is often misleading because it is generally used to describe the alpha female and male in a wolf pack....the mom and dad, in other words. It is so connected to and used in discussions about wolves that people love to use it for dogs, even though domestic dogs aren't true packing animals. Social, yes....need rules and boundaries, yes. Some pack instincts inherrited from their distant wolf-like cousins? Yes. But the idea that they are in a real pack with their human families has been debunked by more recent science and by a lot of canine experts. It is still somewhat controversial however.

So, to use a word that is so often referring to a pack leader such as in a wolf pack in the same vein with a human being who owns a dog is really irrelevant IMO.

The problem with using words like "alpha" or "dominance" is that people who buy into the pack theory as the whole basis for raising their dogs is that they have heard so much misinformation about wolves and think that alpha means to dominate harshly as they misguidedly think wolves do.

The two things; alpha and wolves are so interconnected, so associated, that it is important, I think to differentiate between being an "alpha," as in emulating the false, oft imagined extreme aggressive, domineering treatment from wolves and being a leader... as in guiding our domestic pets.

The term, leader has a much more diverse useage. There are all kinds of leaders; store managers, coaches, teachers, river rafting guides and many more. And people, when they hear "leader" might imagine someone who guides, leads the way, teaches.....but the idea of harsh physical domination doesn't automatically come into their heads as it might when they hear "alpha," since so much misinformation is rampant about wolf behavior and it's like comparrison to domestic dogs.

When someone, perhaps a first time dog owner who is just learning, worries that they're not being enough of an "alpha," I fear that they might be watching Cesar Milan on TV too much. I fear that they are wondering if they should go out the door first, not lie down by the dog, stay at a higher altitude than the dog, eat a cracker before the dog eats and all the rest of the nonsense that still abounds. I fear that they might think they need to throw their dog on it's back like they think alpha wolves do and like they've seen Cesar Milan do. I am concerned that they will equate "alpha" with jerking the dog back with a choke chain because Cesar Milan thinks that alpha wolves do something like that with their teeth if another wolf is ahead of the alpha on the trail. It's almost laughable except a lot of people watch his show that don't know and buy into it.

While they're worrying that their dog is being "dominant" because he is eager to go for a walk and is perhaps a few steps ahead of them, they're wasting precious time that they could be learning about real dog behavior and how they learn and get along with humans. I realize that not every new dog owner gets too worked up about that, but enough do so that this all comes to my mind.

So, although "alpha" and "leader" are intended to mean numero uno or the "first," I see quite a different connotation between the two terms.

Leadership, as in attitude, voice pitch, assertiveness, going out the door first and whatever else people think a leader is.... has less to do with a dog's behavior than applied behavioral law. By using solid, sound training principles, you are the leader as a natural bi-product.

[Ritz459]

Originally Posted by Carrie

Alpha is the letter A, the first letter in the Greek alphabet. It is also used to mean the first. Yes, we need to lead, guide or teach our dogs. The word, "alpha" adds no additional information when talking about our dogs and our relationship with them, IMO.

But it is often misleading because it is generally used to describe the alpha female and male in a wolf pack....the mom and dad, in other words. It is so connected to and used in discussions about wolves that people love to use it for dogs, even though domestic dogs aren't true packing animals. Social, yes....need rules and boundaries, yes. Some pack instincts inherrited from their distant wolf-like cousins? Yes. But the idea that they are in a real pack with their human families has been debunked by more recent science and by a lot of canine experts. It is still somewhat controversial however.

So, to use a word that is so often referring to a pack leader such as in a wolf pack in the same vein with a human being who owns a dog is really irrelevant IMO.

The problem with using words like "alpha" or "dominance" is that people who buy into the pack theory as the whole basis for raising their dogs is that they have heard so much misinformation about wolves and think that alpha means to dominate harshly as they misguidedly think wolves do.

The two things; alpha and wolves are so interconnected, so associated, that it is important, I think to differentiate between being an "alpha," as in emulating the false, oft imagined extreme aggressive, domineering treatment from wolves and being a leader... as in guiding our domestic pets.

The term, leader has a much more diverse useage. There are all kinds of leaders; store managers, coaches, teachers, river rafting guides and many more. And people, when they hear "leader" might imagine someone who guides, leads the way, teaches.....but the idea of harsh physical domination doesn't automatically come into their heads as it might when they hear "alpha," since so much misinformation is rampant about wolf behavior and it's like comparrison to domestic dogs.

When someone, perhaps a first time dog owner who is just learning, worries that they're not being enough of an "alpha," I fear that they might be watching Cesar Milan on TV too much. I fear that they are wondering if they should go out the door first, not lie down by the dog, stay at a higher altitude than the dog, eat a cracker before the dog eats and all the rest of the nonsense that still abounds. I fear that they might think they need to throw their dog on it's back like they think alpha wolves do and like they've seen Cesar Milan do. I am concerned that they will equate "alpha" with jerking the dog back with a choke chain because Cesar Milan thinks that alpha wolves do something like that with their teeth if another wolf is ahead of the alpha on the trail. It's almost laughable except a lot of people watch his show that don't know and buy into it.

While they're worrying that their dog is being "dominant" because he is eager to go for a walk and is perhaps a few steps ahead of them, they're wasting precious time that they could be learning about real dog behavior and how they learn and get along with humans. I realize that not every new dog owner gets too worked up about that, but enough do so that this all comes to my mind.

So, although "alpha" and "leader" are intended to mean numero uno or the "first," I see quite a different connotation between the two terms.

Leadership, as in attitude, voice pitch, assertiveness, going out the door first and whatever else people think a leader is.... has less to do with a dog's behavior than applied behavioral law. By using solid, sound training principles, you are the leader as a natural bi-product.

Very good post.

[BoxMeIn21]

Originally Posted by c0_re

This type of attitude is just as bad as the people that think positive re-enforcement is a big waste of time, .

And what type of attitude would that be? The type that doesn't believe that preceeding my dog through doorways and eating before him makes me "Alpha"?

[Carrie]

Those are some of my favorite articles you posted BoxMeIn. Very sensible and sound advice from someone who really knows behavior. It's too bad more people don't learn from the people in a highly respectable position to educate. I absolutely agree that it's high time to throw inacurate information with no sound scientific back-up, no back up at all.... back where it belongs.

[BoxMeIn21]

Originally Posted by Carrie