Prey drive.

[britishbandit]

Ok this came up recently on another forum (yes I know, shame on me...LOL), and wanted some opinions on it.

It started off with a Lab breeder flaming Rottweilers, saying that if this person who was interested in the breed and getting a pup, that they should be very careful if they had kids, and perhaps rethink what breed to get. I was like "WHAT?!?!, Rottweilers in general are EXCELLENT with kids!".....obviously stating of course, if they are raised with children and trained/socialized properly. I also went on to say, my personal concern with Rottweilers and kids would be if they had or developed a high prey drive. Where a child or children were running or doing something that might kick in that drive. I also stated that prey drive isn't something that I thought could be detected in pups at the age they go into their new homes, assuming they are leaving the breeder at the average 8-12 weeks. That it was something that may or may not appear on down the road, and to be sure to always supervise when the dog and kids are together, no matter the breed.

Well I got blasted by one of the breeders on the forum (a Lab breeder), saying I had no idea what I was talking about. And that she personally can detect prey drive in her puppies as young as 3-4 weeks of age. Now I'm no expert, but that seems to me like a bunch of phooey to me. At 3-4 weeks of age, the pups have barely had their eyes open, have likely never even been outside, or experienced much of anything yet, besides eating, sleeping, going pee and poop and the play with their littermates here and there. How could it be possible to detect prey drive? I think any young pup chases cats, birds, squirrels.....etc......., and how the heck can you determine that it is in fact prey drive, or just simply play and curiosity? Can you say for certain that a pup that yound definately has prey drive? Is it possible, or is this person just taking out of their arse?

[LilacDragon]

With Labs being the most common breed in the U.S. - unless you are talking about field bred pups, I have to wonder about prey drive. Sorry, but soooo many backyard breeders have done quite a bit of damage to the breed.

I know that many experienced rottie breeders with working/show lines can pick out the really "good" pups pretty early but I am not sure if that would be at 3 or 4 weeks. Having not spent any time with litters of puppies since I was 12 (and that was a VERY long time ago), I would think that the pups would need to be able to see and walk before you could judge prey drive.

[Rivsky]

I have also heard of people who have been able to pick out certain aspects in a pup's personality at around 6-8 weeks as being indicative that that dog may have more of a tendency towards having some sort of prey drive but definitey not at 3-4 weeks like this lab person has stated.

Maybe this is more what they're talking about - not necessarily knowing for sure which pup "has" prey drive but which pup is more likely to develop and naturally exhibit it. Or as you say maybe they are just talking out their butt!

[GSD]

3-4 weeks, the breeder thinks very highly of themselves, and sure experience can probably predict it correctly some of the time, but I wouldn't expect much accuracy.

Predicting at 8 weeks, maybe a little better. A lot of times you can tell which ones have NO drive with those that have some, but again I don't expect much accuracy. I know they do their best, cause that's when "pet" puppies go to "pet" homes and "working" puppies go to working homes around 8 weeks, so they have to make an attempt.

but it never fails, some "working" puppies that showed something at 8 weeks don't show squat at 8 months and some that were suredly "just pets" get sent back to the breeder at 1 year of age cause they have so much drive the owner doesn't know what to do with it and it becomes an awsome working dog once it gets sent back.

I know lots of breeders do their best, but if they're that adament and sure of themselves, that they can accurately predict them at 3-4 weeks??? I'd say they're probably living in their own little world.

[Doglover1988]

Lucy's prey drive didn't show until she was about 8 months old and started killing squirells and small animals. Before that she didn't show any intrest in anything.

[D.Schäferhund]

It is a lucky guess at that time.... 3-4 weeks, it is just starting...

so many chnages are happening after that...

6 -8 weeks, puppytests are taken abut a test with six weeks can be different that a test with 8 weeks..

you can see tendeencies, maybe, but that does not mean anything...
8 week tests can give you a hint on what might be, but it is never acurate.
It is all in the developemen, in the genetic preset and if you nurture these drives...
You can't nurture what is not there, but you can miss to nurture it.
some dogs are lateblumer in drives some have it early show a got drive and then it gets "lost" or mistaken as a certain drive, wich is truly a different one.

In all predators the predator drive follows an inevitable sequence: the search, the eye-stalk, the chase, the grab bite, and the kill bite. In wolves the predator drive is complete and balanced.

wikipedia.org

This all is preydrive, what we comonly mean, here they call it predetor drive, wich I actually like.
The thing is what part of that predetor drive is breed into the dog..
the search (e.g seen in a pointer), the eye-stalk (often seen in Border collies), the chase (greyhound), the grab bite (retrievers) and the kill-bite (rat terrier)
these are just examples for diifferent breed bred out to execute different elements of making prey.
preydrive is a very broad term, in spoerts it means the drive to chase and catch maybe tug.
the question is wich breed you have and wich part of it is bred for.

With 8 weeks you see tendancies, but you never can predict how a dog will turn out.
even with excellent drive genetically given to the dog, it does not mean that you can ruin this drive. Out of a rock alone you can't make a building, but if you work that rock it can be a building.
On the other hand you can't make a builng out of cookiedough like you would make one out of a rock.

you have a base you have to work with. it is up to you what you make of it.

Well anyways, 3-4 weeks i think is quite early and in these first crucial 8 weeks there is happening so much, i woulndn't go off of seeing things so early, even 8 weeks is early but there you can see a liilte pack dynamics and baseline tendencies you can see in a dog...
but that is still subject to change...

[CdnRottieMom]

I've read somewhere that the earliest prey drive can be picked out in a puppy is 6 weeks, and even that's taking a wild guess by the breeder. Puppies change so much. Neyla has an average prey drive, but I've noticed when she hit 9 months old that she has now taken an interest in chasing squirrels and prior to 9 months had no interest whatsoever in them. Also is now back to chasing anything that flies (Canadian geese, butterflies, flies, sometimes robins). But cars, people on bikes, skateboards, roller blades, she's ok with.

[Beryl]

D..
Thanks so much for posting this:

"the eye-stalk (often seen in Border collies)"

Believe it or not, my toy poodle has the classic eye-stalk. I had been calling his eery, almost obsessed stare he gives me while in a crouching position -- "the look". He does this when he anticipates me throwing a toy for fetching. When I saw a picture of a BC with the same stare, I called it the "BC stare".

Now I know that it should be properly referenced as "the eye stalk". He herds just like BCs as well. Unfortunately for Boo (my min pin), he is the recipient of his herding skill.

He demonstrated this behavior after he came to me at 12 weeks. I don't know if the breeder saw it.

[Flutterby]

6-8 weeks yes, but it's not a definite thing, as many things can influence the dogs as it matures in regard to prey drive (including genetics, environment, experiences, etc.)

3-4 weeks - highly unlikely! Their individual personalities are just starting to emerge. Perhaps what this person claims is prey drive is just normal baby puppy learning about their environment and how to play. Maybe she sees a puppy go for a toy and pegs it as prey drive, I don't know. But I would not hold much respect for a "breeder" that says they can definitely see real prey drive in such BABY puppies.

Lanie
And The Zoo
Royal Star Estates
freewebs.com/royalstarestates

[britishbandit]

Originally Posted by D.Schäferhund

6 -8 weeks, puppytests are taken abut a test with six weeks can be different that a test with 8 weeks..

you can see tendeencies, maybe, but that does not mean anything...
8 week tests can give you a hint on what might be, but it is never acurate.
It is all in the developemen, in the genetic preset and if you nurture these drives...
You can't nurture what is not there, but you can miss to nurture it.
some dogs are lateblumer in drives some have it early show a got drive and then it gets "lost" or mistaken as a certain drive, wich is truly a different one.

That's exactly what I thought! Yes, a "hint" as to if it may be apparent, that they may show signs of prey drive. But something I feel that cannot be determined as a definate thing at that age to as to whether or not it'll still be there down the road.

And like you said that not nurturing it, it could be "lost". Or it might not have actually been present to start with, that perhaps it was a case of mistaken prey drive.

I was really put off by this breeders claim. And sure, I can see that breeding FOR prey drive, or having it present throughout the lines of the dam and sire, that it's fair to guess that the pups may end up with it also. But then if they were breeding for prey drive, likely the pups would be expected to be going into working homes, not pet homes. In which case, this person thinking of getting a Rottweiler (since they just want a pet) wouldn't be looking into such lines, nor would the breeder allow them a pup from that litter. That of course, being if they were to go to a reputable breeder, which was also a pressed issue in the thread.

[D.Schäferhund]

@ Beryl:
My aika does the Eye-stalk very often, too.Maybe I should stick her on some sheep?!?!?


Well that whole drive thing is very complicated, you can't give the dogs the drives ,but you can nurture them.
You also can miss the windows when they have the most reseptiveness...

It is best excplained when I use the language window in humans,
Humans have the ability to talk, the window when the humans are most receptive to learn language is when they are 3 to 6 years old, do you miss that window, they have a very hard time learning the language and will never be able to speak it as fluent as people who learned in that window.
You just can make up parts of it.
Same thing with socialisation, the first weeks are crucial, there is the basis, we all know, social behaviour needs to be started then and continuous practices untill almost maturity to have a dog with good social skills.

It is just like with dough, some make a baked clumb out of it-others can make a piece of art...

To the linebreedings, working or pet, even in a working litter might be pet quality dogs...
As of a Rottweiler, they should have a nice temperament with kids anyways...
Same with GSDs hard workers, but meant to be really crazy about kids,too.... very important!!!

short you never really know what you get, you just can hope that the promise turnes out to become true!
puppies are surprise packages...