Good grief

[WingedFoal]

I am honestly starting to wonder about Tasmo. We are using NILIF, and last night we were having a one-on-one training session. Before that, we had taken a nice walk outside where he could do all his business. Not even a few minutes into the training session, he broke away from me without warning, and lifted his leg on my child's playpen.

A little background info in case it's needed or forgotten from previous posts: Tasmo is a year and a half old. He started having this problem a few months before we got Lazy (who I fostered and is now in a good home) or Bitty. He was completely housetrained for several months (had not had an accident inside) before this started. It has only gotten worse, and I mean WORSE, no matter what I do or how I do it. I had honestly thought the NILIF program was working on him, but he has proved me completely wrong the past week.

I know this may sound strange(and I don't think I would ever say this if I didn't see it myself), but I am starting to honestly believe Tasmo is obsessive-compulsive about lifting his leg and peeing on things. It's almost like he can't help it, even though I KNOW he can hold it (he holds it overnight in his kennel without ANY problem). Is there medication for this kind of behavior in dogs?!?!?

Another example: I took him to a park while I was staying in Birmingham last week. I set my bag down on the ground since there was nothing around for me to set it on. First thing Tasmo does is run over to it and start to lift his leg. I said "No" and that was enough for the time. He bowed down and literally scuttled away. We started playing, and I noticed he kept eyeing my bag, when he ran over to it and tried marking it again. I was right after him, following him, so I popped him on the rump and told him "NO" again. He acted horrified again, but I thought this time he had gotten the point. Nope, I was wrong. I leashed him, and we started training, and I always make it fun, Bitty at least can't seem to get enough of it. After a few minutes on the leash, when I thought I had his undivided attention, I took him off and we started "long-distance" training (I don't know what else to call it). Still, he seemed interested in me, right up to the point where he glanced at my bag, then took off across the park and soaked it. Now, there were a lot of trees and other objects to pee on. I understand the bag LOOKED like fair game to him, but he does this even inside (or used to, when I stupidly trusted him). Now he stays in the kennel when I can't watch him, and he STILL does it even if I'm watching him, like last night.

Oh and he lifted his leg on my son the other day. MY SON. This is the point where I feel the need to ask myself if I can handle him any longer.

I'm sure I'm doing something wrong, but he is SOOO trainable in everything else.... I just don't get it. I swear I had completely housetrained him, he knows not to go inside, but does it anyway - he acts really embarrassed after he does it, but, ooohhh, I just DON'T GET him........

Bitty is already housetrained with just one accident in the past week, which I completely own up to that one. She was telling me she needed to GO but I was in the middle of dressing my son and she went by the door after she couldn't wait any longer. Lazy was housetrained very quickly too, and would almost want to commit suicide than use the bathroom in the apartment, even though she was a year old and obviously didn't know what a house was when I first got her. So I must be doing SOMETHING right.

So is Tasmo hopeless? I'm honestly thinking about finding him another home that can handle him even though I do love that dog. I just can't handle him peeing on things, especially NOT my child. It makes it even harder that I live in an apartment and don't have a yard for him to exercise in. Any advice would be really appreciated.

[doberkim]

is he neutered?

[WingedFoal]

No he's not, I was going to start showing him when I got back to Birmingham. So, I'm kind of at a block here......

I'm guessing he's headed for a neutering and no showing at the rate he's going at.

[doberkim]

well, theres your problem. hes an intact male.

i mean, it seems intuitive -- you said that its at the point that you dont know if you can handle him. hes acting on his hormones. neuter him.

[WingedFoal]

Yep that's my best bet..... No showing Tazzy though. I guess that's the selfish part of me speaking when I say I'm sad about not being able to show him.

[WingedFoal]

Doberkim,

I don't want to be annoying or anything of the sort.... Does this happen to other people with male dogs? I've mainly had female dogs all my life, and the males my family and I had were neutered or knew better than marking if not neutered. I was definitely planning on neutering him on down the road, after I could show him, sooner especially if he wasn't top quality Boston.

Another question I have is, when I get him neutered, how long will it take for him to realize that he doesn't need to mark anymore? I know I had said that I couldn't handle him, but I was frustrated last night (overwhelmed with all the dogs suddenly).. He is a GREAT dog, no problems, very obedient except for this... I think I'm rambling.... He's been really good today.

Also, is there no other way to help him understand? What do people with show dogs do if they keep a male inside and he marks?

I really really appreciate your help, I've read your other posts and you are SOOO smart about these things. I don't want to appear as one of the people who get advice but just don't listen - I'm just trying to get all the facts right now (especially since I can't get him neutered at 11pm on Sat. night ).

[doberkim]

the longer he is intact, the longer it may take (and he may never stop) marking. yes it happens to many people who have male dogs -- bowies only been neutered for a few years, but he still marks at some particularly lovely places like dog shows.

people who keep intact male dogs train them to not do it i know many people with intact males who havent had problems with marking, but one of the main reasons i bet your dog IS doing it, is because hes intact.

has he had a urinalysis and a physical to ensure hes healthy?
i dont want this to come out the wrong way, but most of the people who have problems with marking i have met tend to be small dog people. its simply not accepted and most of the large dogs i know of would be horrified if their dogs were lifting their leg in the house.

there are belly bands your dog can wear that will catch the urine. but that isnt fixing the problem, jsut managing it. i think if he is still doing it, its either so ingrained in him, or your are being inconsistent. if he isnt reliable, he shouldnt be allowed off leash in th ehouse yet and NILIF needs to be taken up a step. but i would neuter him sooner rather than later, the hormones are definitely a contributing factor. especially if there is a bitch in the house

[WingedFoal]

I'm taking all my dogs next week to be checked out at the vet's. It's vaccination time. I've only had big dogs, so I can see what you are saying about small dogs being the ones marking more. The big dogs I've had seem to catch on a LOT easier to where they should/shouldn't go. It horrifies me that Tasmo (even being so little) marks in the house, which is what has stressed me out so bad!!

[smkie]

I had many intact male dogs, little and small that never, and i mean never did anything like that. I do not think it is a testicle issue, i think it is a control issue. He wants to be the boss, claim you all as his..it is time for a snout to nose discussion. what do you do when he does this? I'd lower the boom and tell him who was boss. Even when other dogs would go inside, via the vet or someplace like that mine knew that they were not to..in was "understood". Have you talked to any behaviorialist? This sounds very intentional to me!

[WingedFoal]

It is VERY intentional. He now stays in his kennel when he is not outside or on a leash with me. I'm having to watch him extremely well when he's inside and out of his kennel.

[bigdoglover]

Hi, just read all the posts and I have to agree, it sounds like a domination issue to me. I've only got big dogs (duh) and the only time my intact GSD marked in the house was when I brought in my male pup for grooming. I guess he felt he needed to re-establish his domain. My father had a male GSD that wanted to mark in the house, and his solution was to clean the mess, (after some reprimand) and then ...and this is going to sound really funny....he would take off one of his socks and rub the entire area where the dog peed. This put his scent on the object and the dog left it alone. It took about a month of doing this, but he realized it was our house and he was a lower pack member. Just a thought, I'm sure you could do something different to "re-mark" your area....kinda like showing him that if your scent is on it, "no touching"!!
Again, just a thought

[WingedFoal]

Hey that's a good idea, and I'll do that until I can neuter him or retrain him, whichever comes first.

[flyndog]

Just to back up Doberkim, some breeders of toy dogs keep belly bands on their males. If it was an uncommon problem, there wouldn't be a market for belly bands! It can be really hard to discover just a few drops of urine and by the time it is discovered, the behavior has become self-rewarding. And then it's hard to re-train.

[WingedFoal]

Originally Posted by flyndog

Just to back up Doberkim, some breeders of toy dogs keep belly bands on their males. If it was an uncommon problem, there wouldn't be a market for belly bands! It can be really hard to discover just a few drops of urine and by the time it is discovered, the behavior has become self-rewarding. And then it's hard to re-train.

Yeah he had snuck a few drops out here and there before I noticed, and by that time I guess he liked it enough to not want to stop. We've been working very very hard on this, now he's only allowed to go potty in a certain area outside too (not just every bush and tree) and he's already starting to lead me right to where the potty tree is whenever we go outside or have been outside. I have not let him off leash inside, and he has been minding himself very well. I've seen him begin to lift his leg a few times (inside the apartment and outside) and then he realizes that's not the potty tree, and he takes his leg down really fast, without any drops of pee. He looks up at me like, "I'm sorry,'' but I really honestly don't know how to react. I usually say good boy, because he's not peeing, but then again he's still lifting his leg. So, I'm kinda lost with that one. But the incidents have been declining, thank goodness.

I took him to the vet's today (along with Bitty), told her about the problem, and she found nothing wrong with him physically (YAY!). She told me he was a good looking Boston(in "Showing" post on The Global Paw), and she encouraged me to try showing him, along with Bitty. I got Tasmo because he was SOOO sweet, and it was a plus that he was thought to be of possible show quality (according to his breeder). He's also very well behaved, he even knows how to "stand still" on command, and looks me dead in the eye while doing it. I want to get in a training class with him though, to really help us along.