Scruff shake a puppy?

[greekblue]

Have you ever discipline your puppy by giving him / her a scruff shake? I have read that this a good discipline method because you imitate the way the bitch would discipline her unruly puppies.

However, I am afraid to use it (I feel sorry for my puppy) and I am not sure either if that is a good way to deal with a biting issue.

Please let me know what do you think.

[Swiftwind]

I've never used the 'scruff shake' method as a training tool, and I never will. To be honest, I view it as very out-dated. There is so much damage you could do to a pup by holding it by the scruff and shaking it. Not to mention, I imagine scruff shaking imposes such a negative image on the pup, and I wouldn't be surprised if he/she became frightened of outreached hands.

I would much rather use a positive training method, such as rewarding your pup when she isn't biting, and ignoring her when she is. Try holding a tiny bit of chicken in your fingers (so your pup can't get at it). When she tries to grab it, don't give it to her. When she stops and waits for it, then give it to her (and use a cue word such as 'gentle', which I've taught my dogs). She'll soon learn that she won't get rewarded for nipping or grabbing.

Others may have different views, but I seriously think you would be wise to train your pup in a more positive way.

[britishbandit]

Great post Swiftwind!

Originally Posted by greekblue

I have read that this a good discipline method because you imitate the way the bitch would discipline her unruly puppies.

Ugh, I hate hearing that! We aren't dogs, and to try and mimic the way dogs interact with each other is just plain silly. Please toss the scruff shaking theory out the window. It will more than likely make your dog afraid of you.

Remember that you don't want to eliminate biting, you want your dog to learn bite inhabition. Puppies need to bite, you just have to teach them that biting you isn't "on", but show your pup what things she is allowed to bite. The yelp, or saying "ouch" is usually enough to startle a puppy if it bites you. But depending on how "sensetive" the pup is, sometimes the volume and tone you use needs to be adjusted. Your goal should be to to make your pup stop biting you, if only long enough to trade up your hand (other body part) for something she IS allowed to chew on. If your pup doesn't stop the nipping despite the yelping, and trading off, then give a time out. Make your pup realize that biting and nipping at you = end of playtime. If the nipping is just "mouthing", and not hurting you, that's ok, but once it becomes enough pressure to hurt, that's when you need to do these things.

Puppies teethe for quite a while, by the time their baby teeth are in fully, their adult teeth start coming through, they're usually around 6 months before the teething process is complete, or almost complete. During this time you can't expect your puppy not to have to bite things, again, just be in control of what things are acceptable to bite on.

[Kuchi]

I'm don't use anything that a mother dog would do, they know you're not a dog. It sounds like she may need something to chew on. I used ice cubes a lot, it feels good on their gums or you can freeze a sock or they have puppy toys that you can soak with water then freeze. You have to be consistent.
Kuchi learned quick if he bit the game is over, I turned around and ignored him. He finally realized mouthing me doesn't hurt and the game can continue until I say I'm through.

[greekblue]

Thank you,
I thought that grapping a puppy by the scruff would be a little too much discipline, and I did not like it.

Plus, I am afraid that puppies might get hurt because we might not know exactly where or how much to shake like their mother would know.

[calgal]

Originally Posted by Swiftwind

I've never used the 'scruff shake' method as a training tool, and I never will. To be honest, I view it as very out-dated. There is so much damage you could do to a pup by holding it by the scruff and shaking it. Not to mention, I imagine scruff shaking imposes such a negative image on the pup, and I wouldn't be surprised if he/she became frightened of outreached hands.

I would much rather use a positive training method, such as rewarding your pup when she isn't biting, and ignoring her when she is. Try holding a tiny bit of chicken in your fingers (so your pup can't get at it). When she tries to grab it, don't give it to her. When she stops and waits for it, then give it to her (and use a cue word such as 'gentle', which I've taught my dogs). She'll soon learn that she won't get rewarded for nipping or grabbing.

Others may have different views, but I seriously think you would be wise to train your pup in a more positive way.

I totally agree with Swiftwind. "Hands-off" for sure.

[Rivsky]

Swiftwind is spot on - I would never use a scruff shake either - all it does is teach a pup that a hand coming towards it is something to be feared.

[BoxMeIn21]

*nods in total agreement* Don't just give up on that link that I gave you - I explained that its not an overnight fix - you have to be consistent.

[GSD]

if all you ever do is shake the puppy with your hand and never balance it with the good things that can come from you hand, yes it could be afraid of your hand in time.

BTW most dogs no matter how old, or how trained will show some reaction to hands coming at their eyes, it's a reflex, just like you can always get your friends in the "two for flinching game" by moving your hand at their eyes, or a fake kick to the groin (the girls were evil in grade school)

But dogs forgive easily, and they can understand humans, it's why they've evolved so closely with us. I'm no momma wolf or dog, but they know what I want from them.

Just grabbing a puppy by the scruff and a firm voice will stop it from biting you, and it works very quickly. Ignoring the behavior or redirecting it works too. That's what I do, but my dogs can bite, i don't want to inhibit that behavior as a puppy.

If you're not comfortable with it, don't do it, you're smart in that regard, but just the act of placing your hand there with very gentle pressure and a quiet but firm voice is more than enough in most cases. "scruffing" doesn't have to entail grabbing a pup and shaking it around.

I'd only use it when the biting gets too hard or rough. Puppies need to play and they need to mouth things, it's how they develope mentally and socially.

[DFrost]

I rarely do any type of corrections with a puppy. They are exploring their new world. They don't have many ways of doing it other than sniff, touch and chew. Just like a baby, everything goes to the mouth. If anything, I just redirect the behavior to something that is acceptable. Besides, that puppy knows you aren't his momma.

DFrost

[greekblue]

I redirect the behavior, but she seems to like my skin better than her toys.

I have several -- not small -- scars. She has drawn blood several times.

It is the only behavior that I have no patience for, so I called a trainer and she will work on my puppy just on nipping, biting skin. I do not mind if she chews other stuff; I am patient and I let her explore, but when she bites me, she will not stop, and it hurts me A LOT! She is not aggressive; she just plays and cannot stop. When she is not excited she has began to respond to the word "gentle."

[Sophie45]

First off, I totally agree don't do the scruff shake-you are obviously not a dog, nor her Mama, so Niki will not understand that from you like she will from her Mama, and most likely misinterpret it. I think any hands-on physical correction is more likely to amp up aggression and defeat the purpose.

Just curious-

How does she react when you yelp when she bites hard? Some puppies get even more amped up by this (which was the case with Sophie), and it doesn't work-do you notice that it works, or just gets her revved up?

If that doesn't work, or only part of the time-how consistent are you at saying something (I would say "NOT NICE" in a very firm voice-never yell, but very firm- "I mean business" tone) and leave the room? I know it might be hard because you're probably worried about her being noisy/bark/cry/whine when you leave the room and bothering roommates/neighbors....right? But I think that's the BEST way to teach a pup because she loses her play privilege immediately.

I kind of feel like her drawing blood is a bit extreme-but I AM NOT a puppy expert by any means, I've only raised one who never drew blood, so maybe other people have better opinions and more experience than I do, but I definitely think at this point if yelping doesn't work (it rarely worked with Sophie), you HAVE to leave the room or at least somewhere in the room where she can't access you without crating her-which is usually hard in the same room!-to get that firm, consistent message across:

"If you bite hard, then you will lose your play privilege"

I know I said this in a previous post, but what I used to do was re-direct, but make that toy so exciting-dancing around with it, and saying in an excited, happy tone: "Come get it! Go get it!" and then toss it away from me, and it ALWAYS worked. Generally, if she's biting your hand and you stuff a toy in her face, your hand is still

[greekblue]

I am extremely frustrated with that. Unfortunately, I have yelled at her. It is the only thing it really frustrates me and make me lose patience; it is the only time I yell.

She bites so hard that I have cuts on my hands, arms, and legs. Yelping worked only a few times; then, I had to change the sound, but now every sound I make makes NO difference to her. When I ignore her, she barks for a while and then she does her own thing. As soon as I come in, she bites harder.

Nothing seems to work. Sometimes, I think she got it because she will respond to the word "gentle". But that is rare and only for a couple seconds.

I am going to get that trainer although it is very expensive for me because I do not want to destroy my relationship with my puppy. She is the sweetest dog the whole day at home or everywhere we go. She will sit down next to me or on my lap. She will follow me around, etc. At night, she goes nuts biting. It is weird.

[Rivsky]

Originally Posted by greekblue

When I ignore her, she barks for a while and then she does her own thing. As soon as I come in, she bites harder.

Then immediately leave the room and ignore her again - this time for a little longer. It sounds to me like ignoring her is working as she does calm down - maybe you just aren't giving it the time it needs to work. Puppies are very excitable by nature so there's no easy fix to train them out of things like biting when they get overexcited other than time, patience and consistency. Trust me eventually it will click with her - rough play = end of play.

[greekblue]

Rivsky,
I think you are right; I do not give the time it needs.

I do not know if anyone of you have something that you just can't stand on your puppy's behavior and you lose patience, but biting does it for me. Do other puppies draw blood when they bite and do not stop?

It hurts me even more because I have fibromyalgia and something that a normal person would barely feel, it can make me scream from pain. I can't wait for her to start classes.
It is really the only thing that gets between us.

However, just in case anyone has doubts now -- I still LOVE my puppy the same way as before I got her and even more!
She is adorable, lovely, beautiful, smart and HUGE for her age.
I love her very much -- biting or not.