Question for positive reinforcement trainers - throwing treat away from you

[dogs4life]

So I was watching some agility handlers and their dogs and saw some very different training techniques. One I haven't seen before, a trainer rewarded her dog by throwing the treats away from her thus the dog was required to search for the treat in the grass. Just wondering...

What is she reinforcing or discouraging? It wasn't a retrieving toy containing foods, just the bare treat tossed in the grass. Is she discouraging the dog from coming to her for treats after each obstacle so she can send him on his next obstacle? It just wasn't clear to me and I didn't have time to track her down and ask.

[GSD]

I"m not sure, but reading a lot of dog behavior texts, they stress the importance of balance in a lot of things. They do this to ensure that you're coupling things that dogs want to do naturally with what will give them greater success. ie, waiting at the door (what the dog doesn't want to do, with a release command, the dog gets to then rush out and play (what it wants).

They talk about the same stuff in rewards, sometimes the reward is given from the handler ( I never give treats (food) away from me, except for tracking. But that is me and food. Toy rewards come from all over. They also go into how a sit shouldn't always be followed by a down, and froma front position to a heel, sometimes you have to put a front position from the heel position.

With toy rewards, my older girl really likes to bite and fight with me. I tug with her and let her win for a reward most of the time, but then will also throw it from me as well. This helps keep her focused on me, not the toy, and she never knows when or how its coming, just that doing what is expected will get that reward from somewhere. Like some people always train with a ball under their arm pit and reward from there. I like to stick the ball right in front of their face sometimes just to reinforce that looking at me gets the reward, i'm the focus, not the ball.

My younger one loves to chase. She bites hard and likes it, but throwing the reward for her to chase is the ultimate reward for her. Maybe this dog likes to search for her treats??? who knows, some dogs really like the search, but it does need to be coupled with getting reward from the handler. a dog shouldn't always come to the handler for reward, this could be detrimental in things like agility, or even schutzhund that I do. But the reward shouldn't always be "away" from the handler either. Where that balance is for each particular dog is different, so knowing your dog is very important and often times comes thru trial and error at first.

Long explanation, but basically it comes down to balance.

[Ritz459]

I play with my dogs by throwing treats in the grass for them to find....it makes them use their sniffers and the dogs have a blast. Blackie, bless his soul, for being a retriever has an awful hard time trying to figure out where I throw the treat. I can throw it and he'll run in the opposite direction. lol When I work with the dogs on obedience commands I'll at times drop the treats in the grass just to give them a bit more mental struggle to find them.

I would imagine it had something to do with the dog not coming towards her for the reward, but who knows. The only thing I can think of that I do really similar is when I want to reward a behavior that I want to occur away from me. Teaching Chloe not to beg is impossible, but I am starting to teach her that begging by laying down away from me gets her the food, not shoving her head in my lap. When I sit down on the couch to eat she'll go and lay down in the middle of the floor and when she's not staring intently at me I'll throw a small piece of food to her. She knows it is coming from me and it reinforces her down/stay while I'm eating.

[SpringerLover]

I don't purposely hide the treats... but I throw treats after clicking to get the dog up and changing positions so they can offer the behavior again.

I'm not consistent in how I reward in agility... sometimes I throw food (gotta have bigger chunks!), sometimes I feed from my hand, sometimes we go to find our reward, sometimes it's playing tug.

[dogs4life]

Originally Posted by GSD

They talk about the same stuff in rewards, sometimes the reward is given from the handler ( I never give treats (food) away from me, except for tracking. But that is me and food. Toy rewards come from all over.

Maybe it's the same reason you give toys from all over but with treats she doesn't get a retrieve like you would with a toy. Hmmmmm...

Originally Posted by Ritz459

I play with my dogs by throwing treats in the grass for them to find....it makes them use their sniffers and the dogs have a blast.

I thought about that too, maybe she's giving the dog a small "break".

Originally Posted by SpringerLover

I don't purposely hide the treats... but I throw treats after clicking to get the dog up and changing positions so they can offer the behavior again.

Maybe that's what she was doing, "resetting" while away.

[Sheltiemama]

In our training sessions we were told to throw the treat away from us to have the dog know that he can move away from the "source" of the treat and still be rewarded. When teaching a relable recall it's a must to get the dog to move away from your body so you can do a recall. Thus throwing a treat away gives distance from the handler and the dog in order for the training to continue.

[dogs4life]

Huh, never thought of doing it myself but makes sense. Thanks everyone!

[Carrie]

Yes, having the treats come from random places helps prevent the treats from becoming such an entrenched part of the cue. It also serves to keep his interest high...varying reinforcers and where they come from is all part of it. Some dogs get so stuck on watching the owner's hand, watching for a treat that they lose focus on what they're doing. Hiding the treat or proving to the dog that NOT seeing the treat is a predictor that a treat IS on it's way is a good thing.

[D.Schäferhund]

not always that complicated, i know of a much simpler reason, when the treatthrowing is used, too.
It is just to keep the dog moving, especially when you do shaping, sometimes that helps keeping that brain moving, and the dog stays active..instead of sometimes getting stationary...

[dogs4life]

Holy cow, look at all the treat tossers