Fight or flight...

[Liz]

OK, I have multiple questions here (I hope I make sense with everything). Basically I am trying to figure out what issue Bogart has. Bogart plays so great with other dogs-he was well socialized as a pup, doesn't care if another dog mounts him, he let's dogs bark at him, he willingly lets other dogs take his ball (he'll even let them take a ball right out of his mouth), he rolls over on his back, etc. People with young puppies are so surprised at how nicely he plays with their dogs too because they say that other dogs play aggressively with their puppies. Now this is for 90% of the dogs we come across at the dog park. Occasionally he'll come across a dog that growls at him. Bogart does not like this at all and generally will attack the other dog.

I understand (at least I think this is true) that dogs operate on a fight or flight response system. I see some dogs that shy away when another dog growls at them, so I am assuming that Bogart feels threatened and chooses the fight response. Why does he do this? Is this bad? Can I stop this? I guess I am just confused because I always thought he was rather submissive, but I don't think a submissive dog would fight another dog. A guy who witnessed a fight said that it was because the two of them are alpha dogs and that they clashed. I never really saw Bogart as a dominant dog because he listens very well to me at home, he plays "submissive" with other dogs, I have him on NILIF, and when we are out on walks and he hears a loud noise he runs behind me. So is he acting insecure when another dog threatens him or what do you guys think?

I get really frustrated when people bring in their aggressive dogs. Generally the dog just wanders around by himself and if another dog gets near him, they growl or something. Same goes for toy aggressive dogs. If Bogart goes near another dog's ball and if the dog growls at him, he gets mad. Now I know it isn't entirely their dog's fault, but Bogart has never been an aggressor nor has he ever growled or postured threateningly at another dog. He only gets aggressive if they threaten him first. But I still do take responsibility for it, so that is why I now get up an hour earlier every morning and take Bogart to the park when there are only a few dogs there (and we know these dogs). I know some people will say I shouldn't take him at all, but if a dog we've never met does come in, I grab Bogart and we leave.

So I guess my overall question is this: why does Bogart feel the need to operate on the fight rather than the flight response especially considering his behavior normally?

I hope this doesn't come across as totally naive. Thanks for any help or input.

[Owned by Lucy]

How a dog reacts with puppies is commonly very different than how they react with older dogs. My Lucy will put up with just about anything from a pup up to the age of about 6 months. They can bite her, crawl over her, hump her and generally mess with her. After that age she begins to put up with less and less.

When we go to the dog park there is a group that is consistently there at the times we go that I know my dogs get along well with. On occassion other owner will bring their dogs at that time. Sometime they get along with the group and other don't. I am very aware of what behavior Lucy "deems inappropriate" and if another dog is exhibiting those I will take control of the situation, take responsibility for protecting my dogs and leave the park.

When you go to a dog park an artificial "pack" is being created. As long as all members agree on the pecking order there is no problem. But when a new dog comes the status quo is effected and problems can arise. The growling in many cases is your dogs way of telling another dog (or someone else) that a line has been crossed that he is not comfortable with. It is a warning sign that should be understood by the other dog and by you. If the warning is not heeded then the dog will choose either the fight or flight response. In a dag park it is also difficult to flee bacause it is an enclosed space so he may feel he has not other option even though physically he is not cornered.

[flyndog]

If I'm reading this correctly, it's the other dogs that growl at Bogart, who then attacks them. I have to ask: why in the world do you continue to take your dog to the dog park if he attacks other dogs (even if it's only 10% of the time)?
Without seeing Bogart's body language or hearing a better description of what happens right before the fight, I can't tell you whether his behavior is offensive or defensive. Does Bogart give any warning before he attacks another dog?
Kit

[Liz]

Thank you Lucy for your reply. Bogart actually plays nicely with dogs of all ages, I was just using the puppy story as an example of how nicely he does play with dogs of all ages.

Kit: Bogart is a very active dog. I take him for two walks a day and I'd be more than happy to take him for a 3rd walk, however, the walks just don't give him enough exercise and that is why I like to take him to the dog park too. I feel that I am being a responsible dog owner, even going as far as making huge adjustments in my schedule to accommodate his needs. I get up at 5:45am (maybe not early for some people, but it is an hour earlier for me), so we can get to the park by 6am and leave by 7am before it starts to get busy. Generally we are the only ones there. Sometimes there are a few other dogs, but these are dogs that we know. There are two fence doors that people need to go through to enter the park. If someone new arrives, I call Bogart and I put him back on lead and we leave. Occasionally I have let the two dogs check each other out (Bogart still on lead-he does not have any leash aggression) and I can tell if there will be problems. If everything seems ok, then we stay. That was kind of a repeat of what I wrote above, but I just want you to be sure, that I am now taking every precaution.

As I've stated before, he has felt the need to defend himself several times-for what reason, other than the dog growling at him, I'm not sure and that was the point of this post. Every single incident involved a fearful dog that generally growled or stiffened up at any dog that got near him, or it involved a dog who had toy aggression and growled at Bogart if he came near the other dog's ball.

To answer your question-The dog will growl. Bogart will stiffen up and do this kind of like twitching movement with his entire body (I hope that is a good way to describe it). And then it happens. The dogs are fighting. It's so quick. I always have an eye on Bogart and stay near him, so the fights are quickly broken up. Anyway, if you (or anyone) have any more advice or input on why he feels so threatened when a dog growls, I'd appreciate it. Thanks!

[elegy]

just because he is "submissive" to you doesn't mean he's not dog aggressive. and being dog aggressive doesn't mean he's going to be aggressive toward all dogs.

my mushroom dog is very very soft with people- he'll roll and piddle, but he'll still go for another dog who pushes him or tries to take something he considers "his". tonight he went after my other dog when she tried to push him out of a good sniffing spot.

if your dog is attacking other dogs he should not be in a dog park period. no excuses.

[tommyjake]

Bogart acts just like Jake in a way - Jake has been attacked, and now everydog he meets who starts growling at him, Jake will attack. Its called fear aggression - where Jake thinks that the dog is going to attack (because it is growling), so jake becomes agressive in order to protect both himself and his pack (me and tommy). Bogart sounds like that too, eventhough he hasnt been attacked as such, in his mind he sees the growling dog as a potential threat; therefore he attacks in order to protect his pack.

[Crossfire Bulldogs]

Hey there Liz ~ Just curious if you've noticed or not, does Bogie seem to do this after that other dog "draws a bead?" Or in other words, is Bogart more apt to stiffen then go at it if the other dog makes direct eye contact with him along with their growling or other less than friendly behavior?

[oc_spirit]

It does sound like Bogart is a dominant dog. He's fine with the dogs that respect his position but if another dog challenges him (growls) he feels he needs to remind them of where exactly they stand in the pecking order. He's submissive to you because you are the Alpha of his pack, you are in charge and he respects that but that doesn't mean he won't have "outsiders" be below him. NILIF isn't going to do anything but reinforce your own position. Other dogs and humans don't benefit from only you doing NILIF. I'm not saying NILIF is a bad thing, it's great but it's not going to help solve this particular problem.

You're right in that dogs work on a fight or flight response. Bogart chooses fight because he is self-confident and knows he can win (in his mind) because he is dominant. If he were submissive he would choose flight. Bogie's 1-2years old now right? He would've shown submission up to now because he was a puppy so he was working on "I'm just a wee lil pup so please don't hurt me I just want to play!" now that he's maturing into an adult he's figuring out that he can take charge of the situation and it's working!

[flyndog]

Originally Posted by Liz

As I've stated before, he has felt the need to defend himself several times-for what reason, other than the dog growling at him, I'm not sure and that was the point of this post. Every single incident involved a fearful dog that generally growled or stiffened up at any dog that got near him, or it involved a dog who had toy aggression and growled at Bogart if he came near the other dog's ball.

What indications do you have that the dogs he attacks are fearful?

Bogart isn't a "dominant" dog. There is no such thing as a "dominant dog". A dog can be dominant in a relationship with you or another pet in some situations and not in others, or at some times but not others, but dominance is *not* a personality trait. That isn't the same as "dominance aggression". Even if Bogart does have some status-related issues, (which it sound like he has, but I can't be completely sure of with the limited information you've given), that doesn't mean he is "dominant".

Concerning his aggression - if he was "dominance aggressive" (a condition not as common as people are led to think and way over-diagnosed) he would consistently display abnormal, inappropriate, out-of-context threats or attacks to you or other people if you tried to control his behavior. If he had dog-dog aggresstion, he would consistently initiate fights with dogs, again out-of-context..without any threatening behavior from the dog.

Concerning NILIF- it is a *very* necessary part of behavior modification for every type of aggression. There is a *huge* benefit to other people and animals when you implement NILIF and reinforce basic training. The benefit is you have enough control over your dog to manage his aggression until you get professional help to actually treat the aggression so they don't get hurt by your aggressive dog.

I suggest you read the book "Fight!" by Jean Donaldson. She breaks dog-dog aggression into smaller parts and gives solid advice for dealing with each type of dog. You can find it online at Dogwise.com or Amazon.com. Some Petsmarts might have it. I also suggest you visit www.k9aggression.com for some very informative online info and more resources.

Kit

[Carrie]

That is VERY interesting stuff Kit. Thanks for sharing. I've been reading and reading.