Territorial anxiety / aggression?

[setanta]

Hi everyone,
I'm a new member here and hoping to get some advice about a problem with my new dog, Gigi, a former shelter dog who has been living with my housemate and I for one month. Unfortunately I don't know much about her history, but it seems as if her previous owners did little to socialise her; she was very nervous around other dogs at first and also completely astonished by birds, water etc! She is generally very quiet, affectionate and relaxed in the apartment, and has a ton of energy outside. However, she reacts strongly to people walking about outside our apartment (we live on the ground floor, facing into a yard) and she becomes agitated when people come into our flat. She is not aggressive outside our building, so this is a territorial issue.

Since we got Gigi, we have only had three sets of visitors to the apartment, and she has always barked and become agitated. On the first two occasions we had to put her in the bedroom as the visitors were workmen and we didn't feel we could ask them for the time to introduce her slowly. She has also barked at the sound of people walking past and talking outside, although she has improved on this slightly as we have tried to distract her from the sounds and also to reward her when she does not react.

Today a trainer came for a preliminary session with Gigi; they met outside, and Gigi was happy to greet the trainer and was not anxious at all. However, as soon as we got through the gate into the yard, she started barking, and this continued when we got into the flat so that the trainer advised us to tie her and leave her there until she was calm. A few times she was able to go off the leash and wandered around quite happily, but she started to bark again when the trainer got up or when we were talking loudly, laughing etc. The trainer advised us that Gigi may be part Hovawart, a guard dog, which may explain in part why she acts this way. I believe that she is more anxious than aggressive.

The trainer gave us some good advice about not letting Gigi have free reign of the apartment, and advised that when she barks we should throw an object on the floor to shock her. We were also advised to try and ignore her as much as possible for the next two weeks and to act for 4/5 of the time as if we don't have a dog. As Gigi was barking today, the trainer advised us to throw spoons on the floor close to her, which stopped the barking. However, I am concerned about this method as I am worried it will agitate her more in the long run; also it is quite upsetting for us. I am especially concerned because we know little of whether she has had an abusive past and whilst I understand that it is cruel to let a dog 'get away' with everything, I don't know if this method would necessarily be right for all dogs. I feel that we need to be more sensitive to the possibility that she has had a bad experience with strangers in the past.

Can any of you advise me on the best way to proceed? Which of these sounds like the best method to you?: Positive reinforcement; i.e. rewarding her when she calms down, or when she does not react; or shocking her with a loud sound and otherwise ignoring her? This is a new problem for me as my previous dog was generally happy to see everyone, and I am keen to solve it as quickly as possible. Gigi is my best buddy already and once we cure this problem, and also her anxiety about train stations (I'll post that another time!) things will be much improved. If any of you have any advice or have been in similar situations, I would be really grateful to hear about it! Thanks for reading!

[RedPowerLady]

I read something online about socializing your pet. I will post what it said and mix in some of my experience as well.
It said to have friends over. And when a friend comes by have them come and go a few times if they don't mind. This will get your dog a little more used to people coming and going. Whenever your dog does good reward her Immediately! Keep in mind to reward for any resemblance of a good behavior if you can't find the right one. And then you can shape that resemblance to the actual behavior you want. You may also want to add a command to it like "Friend". So that Gigi knows that Friends are allowed in the house. Another option is to take her to the dog store and reward her for her good behavior. Here she doesn't have the need to "guard" the house but is being exposed to strangers. So you are taking small steps toward the behavior you want. Use your "Friend" command so she gets used to it.

I would try the positive reinforcement before the other methods but that is just my personal preferred method of dog training.

[Ritz459]

Personally, if it was my dog, I'd shock her out of barking (probably by a loud clap of my hands) and when she stops I wouldn't ignore her, but praise her and interact with her in some way by whatever she enjoys doing - a belly rub, game of fetch, ear scratches, or whatever.

Because, from what I know, you don't shock a dog out of something with the intent of punishment, but with the intent of gaining its attention to redirect it to a better alternative that you can then reward.

We were also advised to try and ignore her as much as possible for the next two weeks and to act for 4/5 of the time as if we don't have a dog.

I've only heard of doing this a couple of times and I'm not really sure how it will help your situation if your dog minds otherwise. Here is a link on another forum that talks about it: 48 hour Social Isolation - Puppy & Dog Forums
I'm not exactly sure if that is what the trainer told you to do or not, but that was the first thing that came to mind. Did the trainer say why she wanted you to ignore her?

[setanta]

Thanks both for the advice! RPL - that all makes good sense. The thing is, Gigi has no problems with us meeting strangers in the street - she will happily lie down and let us chat away. It's when she hears noises in the yard, or people try to come into the flat, that she has a problem. We haven't lived here for long and we haven't had that many visitors, so unfortunately we haven't had the time to introduce her slowly and gently to new people. Her reaction, with barking and growling, is so bad that we really need to do something serious to change it. I don't believe that she would bite but it is still a big problem and could easily intimidate guests. So even though I feel bad about how we are treating her, it will hopefully work.

Ritz - the trainer was advising us to ignore her for much the same reasons as the 48 hours isolation, I think. To make her feel that she is not the 'alpha' and that she cannot get attention whenever she wants it. It's not as dramatic as 48 hours of solid isolation, because we are still giving her some attention on our terms. I have to say that it does seem to be working - she was grumpy with us last night and sat with her back to us, but nothing major. She was happy enough lying in her basket, but we had to resist sympathy for the big puppy eyes! Since yesterday she has been very well-behaved on her walks, and has been more willing to walk to heel, so those are good developments. The trainer also advised us to keep her out of the kitchen when we are in there so that she doesn't feel she has free reign over the whole place, and she has learned that very quickly.

It's unfortunate because we have inherited the legacy of her previous owners, who seem to have done absolutely no work with her outside of housetraining, so the situation has already escalated and needs a strong reaction from us. But whatever it takes, we will do it. It's just a pity that dogs end up in shelters because people buy puppies and expect them to grow up into Lassie with no training. But we will get there! We just hate to see her looking sad, so will have to stay strong. I will speak to the trainer about when we should start rewarding her for better behaviour. Will keep you all posted!

[Ritz459]

Okay, that makes more sense. It sounds more like the trainer wants you to impliment a NILIF (Nothing In Life Is Free) policy than total isolation.

Yes, please keep us posted! I understand totally about having to work through issues with a dog and how frustrating it can be at times. Chloe has been my little problem child and has had resource guarding issues, barrier frustration, leash aggression, grooming issues...most of those have now been almost completely resolved and she has gotten SO much better than she was. It just takes dedication and patience.

[Shmee]

Peety suffers from alot of the samethings that Gigi is dealing with. We just kind of go with it and deal with the individual situations as they pop up. I've had some great results using the "CAN" (i.e. an empty coffee can filled with abunch of pennies). When shaken quickly, I haven't found a dog that wouldn't cease and desist whatever it was doing as a result. All I have to say is, "Do you want the can???" and 9 out of 10 times that's as far as it will get and the barking will stop. Sometimes I have to take the extra step, but it's worth it when your dog simply wont listen to you when they're so engrossed with an activity (barking, chewing) that you as the owner are tuned out.

Goodluck,

-Shmee

[setanta]

Hey Ritz and Shmee,
Thanks for the messages - it's good to hear that there are others who are overcoming similar situations! Even though I'm not really doing anything other than ignoring her, it's tiring and stressful. Still, it will be worth it, I hope. Thought I would post a quick update about how things are now - Gigi has been noticeably more meek and quiet. She walks 'to heel' on the lead a lot better and doesn't barge past us to get through doors. She has been following the 'off' and 'out' commands when we catch her on the sofa or when we want her to leave the kitchen. I think that she will relax if she realises she doesn't have to perform alpha-like behaviour and can relinquish that role. There are some signs of progress - last night, she heard people walking past the apartment and chatting, but didn't flinch, whereas in the past she would have been likely to start growling or barking.

We had a bit of a problem today, though. She had a couple of excellent walks and was not distracted by the things which usually take her attention (shopping bags and so on) - generally very good. We took her to the park for a play with the Frisbee, and that was great too, but on the way home we stopped to read a poster in a shop window and she was standing beside us, happily enough. Whilst our backs were turned she started growling and lunging forward, so we grabbed her collar quickly and she stopped. We expected to see another dog, but we were surprised to see she was growling at a woman with two children. This is the first time anything like this has happened, and she has shown no previous signs of being aggressive toward children, so it was shocking. Our backs were turned, so perhaps the children had been staring her out or something, I don't know - it is definitely something we will have to prevent in future. The only way that I can interpret it is that she decided she had to resume the alpha role to 'guard' us while our backs were turned. At least she stopped immediately that we told her to, so I don't think she was doing it out of viciousness. We will just have to be more vigilant in future and make sure that she is looking in the same direction as us if we stop like that. Fingers crossed it was a one-off.

Shmee - I am definitely going to try the 'can' technique. It seems a lot better than actually dropping or throwing something closer to her, so we will see how that goes. Thanks!

[Carrie]

The trainer gave us some good advice about not letting Gigi have free reign of the apartment, and advised that when she barks we should throw an object on the floor to shock her. We were also advised to try and ignore her as much as possible for the next two weeks and to act for 4/5 of the time as if we don't have a dog. As Gigi was barking today, the trainer advised us to throw spoons on the floor close to her, which stopped the barking. However, I am concerned about this method as I am worried it will agitate her more in the long run; also it is quite upsetting for us. I am especially concerned because we know little of whether she has had an abusive past and whilst I understand that it is cruel to let a dog 'get away' with everything, I don't know if this method would necessarily be right for all dogs. I feel that we need to be more sensitive to the possibility that she has had a bad experience with strangers in the past.

Please never let this trainer set foot in your house again. This advice is outrageous! Your instincts are spot on. You will cause irreversable damage with these kinds of tactics. Your dog is highly stressed in these situations. That's why she's barking. How is her stress going to be reduced by throwing things and startling her? You have to get to the root of the problem to reduce the symtoms. (barking) There is also a very effective method for "bark training." It does not include punishment. No good trainer would punish barking because that is the way a dog communicates. A good trainer would motivate the dog to be quiet on a cue. And there's a good way to do this. But first, I'd worry about making the dog more comfortable with whatever is causing her this high level of stress.

Your dogs very most likely has an impovershed socialization history which is a huge, probably the main cause of continued fear like this into adulthood. This dog is terrified and throwing things at her and ignoring her for weeks on end will tip the scales of stress to the breaking point. An unsocialized dog's fears are very difficult to over come, but some improvement can sometimes be made with a gradual desensatization and counter conditioning program.

I recommend the book, Click to Calm, by Emma Parsons. With this type of program, the dog learns that the scary thing is an okay thing. It is begun at greater distances which are more tolerable to the dog, no matter what distance. You need to start practicing where she is comfortable with whatever or whomever is the target of her fear. EVerything is very gradual...baby steps.

If it's too much work to put into this conditioning, then I would simply try to protect her from feeling this stress by physically keeping her away from those things. She may not be a dog you can take everywhere with you. When she gets into this stressful state, don't make the mistake that is very common of making a fuss over her. Be confident and lead her to a place where the pressure isn't so great.

Please give your dog a safe place to go when someone comes to the house. Teach your dog to go to her crate or other room upon hearing the door knock. Set up these situations with another family member or friend. Door knocks, you coax and guide her to her safe place and give her a yummy treat when she gets there.

If you find you need more professional help, look for a certified behaviorist, not just some random trainer. Ask them for references. Talk with those people and see what their dogs' problems were and how they were dealt with. Ask the trainer questions....give scenarios and ask what she/he would do to treat various behavior problems. If there is any sterness, any startling, shocking, frightening, intimidation or any other aversives, this person does not know how to train a dog using intelligence. There are wonderful methods to treat all kinds of issues and they're used all the time. And they don't involve punishement.

Just think...If you had a phobia of spiders and you cringed and screamed when you saw one, would it help you to have someone throw a 5 gallon bucket of spiders on you? If they kept doing it long enough and you had no escape route but had to endure it, you would eventully give up and lie down. You would stop "behaving." Period. You would be shutting down or entering a phenomenon known as "learned helplessnes." Your phisiological body functions would also change, such as the neurotransmitters in your brain, your blood pressure etc. If his happened repeatedly, you would have serious health risks to your immune system, heart and other organs. The things so called dog trainers or "experts" put these animals through is atrocious. Your concerns and worries about doing these things are so right.

[Carrie]

Her behavior is not "alpha" behavior. It is the behavior of an insecure dog. You must protect people from being bitten but you need to counter condition this dog before you force her to be so close to the things that upset her. You can't work with a dog, nothing will get through her brain when she's in this stressed out state of mind. I hope you find a good behaviorist to help you...to see the dog in these different scenarios and then make a systematic program for you to follow. Do you ever watch Victoria Stilwell on TV...It's me or the dog? She has some great methods for helping with these types of situations. And they do not involve force or punishment.

Being a good leader means being a benevolent leader, not someone who errodes the trust of a dog in his owner. Controlling the dog's resources; food, toys, bed, going outside, anything he likes or needs is what makes a true leader. You don't have to carry this to the extreme, IMO ...with a dog that is this stressed out. But if she has to use her noggin and work for most of the things she values, this will help her to look to you for security. Obedience practice, using gentle, non punishing methods is very useful for all kinds of reasons.

A few other good books: The Power of Positive Training, Pat Miller....Culture Clash, Jean Donadson, Don't Shoot the Dog, Karen Pryor. And Click To Calm...the one I mentioned in the other post. I recommend you get these books. They'll help you understand your dog and help with training immensly.

[KidneyBeaning]

Have you tried to redirect her attention...i.e. get her favorite object out when she starts to bark in the yard and focus her attention elsewhere? I also recommend that you do not follow through with what the trainer suggested. Throwing objects at a dog to get them to quiet is absurd!

[Ritz459]

Originally Posted by KidneyBeaning

Have you tried to redirect her attention...i.e. get her favorite object out when she starts to bark in the yard and focus her attention elsewhere? I also recommend that you do not follow through with what the trainer suggested. Throwing objects at a dog to get them to quiet is absurd!

Throwing objects at a dog isn't good....making a noise to get the dogs attention so you CAN redirect it isn't something I have a problem with. If my dog is in a barking frenzy at something, a quick slap on the wall to get them to look at me and then a, "Where's your toy?" and a quick game of fetch/tug works well. Some dogs are just so "into" something that you need a noise or small touch on the shoulder to get their attention.
Sort of like when the dogs in the kennels get into a barking frenzy, I sudden noise on my part (generally a "HEY! Shut it!") redirects their attention to me and I can tell the instigater to sit/down/chew on your toy/whatever. Then they are fine. A quad of noisy Beagle mixes now all sit quietly when I walk by their kennel because they know sitting quietly gets them a cookie, but barking like maniacs get them nothing. But in early stages of teaching them this I had to make a loud noise to get them to stop barking in the first place.

I guess it depends how the OP is implementing the trainer's advice.

However, I do agree with Carrie. Your girl isn't showing "alpha" behavior, she is showing insecurity. Two totally different things. The NILIF policy that the trainer is having you do isn't about "teaching the dog its place" it is about making the dog feel more secure in its enviornment by rules and guidence.

[Carrie]

I'm sorry to reiterate, but think you need to be careful with startling this dog with loud noises and such. She seems to be a fearful, unsocialized dog. Getting a dog's attention or teaching a dog TO pay attention needs to be started in an environment where the dog is more likely to succeed and where it is proven to the dog that it behooves her to pay attention, by reward. There are some great techniques to teach focus and attention without stooping to punishment.

Don't try "training" or startling the dog to pay attention by waiting for those real life situations. Avoid those for a time, whenever possible by teaching the dog to go to her safe place. If the dog is in fight or flight, which it sounds like she is by her frenzied behvaior, her nervous system is in such a state, where her cortex or thinking part of her brain is on the back burner. Only those functions necessary for survival are at work during these frenzied times; blood pressure, heart rate, adrenalin levels, pituitarty function (seratonin and dopamine levels) are all at levels non-conducive to learning... the body is preparing for fight or flight.

Learning some new way to handle these triggers during these times is completely out of the question. Throwing things, startling, intimdating or causing fear will only raise these levels higher. The best you can hope for is causing her to shut down and supress the behavior. She won't learn how to process these triggers in a healthy or long lasting way.

You're much better off, keeping her "safe" during those times...for now. And teaching her focus techniques or how to redirect herself to something else in an artificially selected environment, such as a very quiet, non distracting room. In addition, implimenting a desensatizing/counter-conditioning program as outlined in Click to Calm, for one choice of a good book.

That is my take on it based on my interpretation of what you've written. It isn't perfectly conclusive, being, the Internet.

Edited to add:

You see....when force or startle is used to supress a reaction or behavior of the dog toward the thing she wants more flight distance...more space between herself and the trigger...(which is what this is all about) you are simply and only stopping the reaction. Her view of the scary thing isn't changed. She's just afraid to react. You must change her opinion of the scary thing. Then you can add in the C/D program. Basically, what you're doing...is instead of reacting to the behavior you don't want her to exibit, you react to the behavior you do want her to exibit. (calmness) You will be picking that second or seconds where she IS quiet. She has to take a breath when she is barking. At those times, you'll click your clicker and treat with a very high value food item. (on a hungry stomach) This comes a little down the road after she has a good start with the comfortable distance. You set her up to succeed in being more comfortable so that you CAN not only change her opinion or view of the trigger, but also be able to mark the behavior which is reinforcing to her. This is much better explained in that book....a real chronilogically explained program.

[setanta]

Thank you all so much for your advice. Carrie - I absolutely agree with you and this was my instinct exactly. As far as I can see, the dog is in a 'fight or flight' situation and tying her up and scaring her with noises is making this all far worse. I am completely unhappy with the idea of throwing any objects on the floor, and I am much more inclined toward the idea of only rewarding good behaviour and as far as possible, ignoring the bad. I find this a very distressing situation and I hate the thought of upsetting Gigi or undermining her trust in us.

I think that the trainer's advice not to let Gigi have free reign of the apartment was good. She advised us to keep Gigi out of the kitchen when we were in there, but to allow her to go in when we were not there. To me, that is fine, but the method of first implementing it was appalling to me. We have always let Gigi follow us into the kitchen. When the trainer was here, the three of us (including my housemate and I) went into the kitchen, and when Gigi followed, the trainer began to drop the spoons and to make all the loud noises intended to dissuade her. I found this extremely upsetting especially as the dog was clearly terrified, and far from making her leave the room, it made her try to cling to us more. There is no way I will be throwing spoons near my dog, and I have not done this subsequently to the training session.

Yesterday we bought some 'training discs', the metal rings attached to a cord, and we tried rubbing these together to get Gigi's attention when she was ignoring commands. We tried this twice; she was absolutely terrified of the sound, cowering and trembling, and rushing to hide behind the person who was not using the discs. So that is enough to show me that this method is completely wrong for her. A couple of times we have tried shaking a pencil tin and she is distracted by that, but does not get upset by it. Perhaps that is because she doesn't realise where the sound of the tin is coming from, whereas she can clearly see that it was us using the discs, and she is confused by why we would be doing that to her. So, no discs, and definitely no spoons or anything else hitting the floor. It just terrifies her and we need to be sensitive of the fact that we know nothing of her background, of what might have happened to her in the past.

So, since the training session, we have not really implemented the advice given. We have tried to withdraw our attention from Gigi, because we were at fault in the past few weeks for making a fuss of her every time she enters the room or comes over to us - it's hard not to do that with a new dog, and especially a rescue dog. Now, she leaves the room, gets off the sofa, and goes to her basket on request. Sure, she does it with the walk of a condemned man, but she does it! We are also keeping her toys in a box so she does not have free access to them all the time, and we are feeding her after we have eaten - all of which she has reacted to well.

The problem with our situation is that we are new to this country, having only lived her for a few months (I am from Ireland) and so we don't have the family members or friends yet who could help us with socialising Gigi in the best possible way. She is fine with us chatting to people in the park, but we don't know anyone well enough yet that we can ask them to come to the apartment so that we can work through this with her. That's what we were hoping to get from the trainer. I have a family member coming over in a couple of weeks so hopefully we can try the slow introductions that time. I am pretty sure that she has not been previously socialised in any way, either with people or other dogs. The first few dogs we met on our walks would cause her instantly to roll over, and she still cowers and backs up when male strangers try to pat her head. So it is going to take a little time - but we will get there.

I will contact the trainer today and explain my concerns, and we will see if she is prepared to take an entirely different approach, otherwise we will not have another session. I understand that the barking and growling is problematic, but there must be a better way to deal with it than this. Of course the loud noise stopped her from barking, but there is no way that is a solution, and in the end it is likely to exacerbate her fear and resultant aggression. Carrie - thank you for confirming my feelings in this respect. I just hope that the first session did not cause too much damage.

I have some very positive news to share too. Yesterday, we bought Gigi a 'Halti' collar (with nose band) and also a clicker. We have only had three walks since then, but the change in her is phenomenal. She has always walked well on a regular lead, but she did have a tendency to veer off to the side any time she sniffed something she liked, and she has always been distracted or spooked by certain things - shopping bags, people running toward her, etc. We have a shoulder harness and extendable lead which we use when going to the park for a good run. Well, since using the Halti, she has walked perfectly to heel and has not flinched at any of the usual things that would have spooked her. Yesterday was the equivalent of a Hazard Perception Test for her! She had children running toward her, shopping bags passing by, wheeled suitcases going past, etc. and nothing moved a hair on her head. She used to do a little routine of trotting around the room before her lead would go on, but now she comes straight up and sits still for the Halti. At the same time, we have been using a clicker, and she has just been perfect on her walks. She's a smart girl and she worked out instantly what the clicker meant, so I think it will be a perfect training aid.

Carrie - I will order a copy of 'Click to Calm'; thank you very much for that advice. I watched Victoria Stilwell's UK show and I have read her book also - I am much more in favour of her reward method rather than of any kind of punishment. Whilst I wait for the book to arrive, would you mind giving me a brief synopsis of the method you mentioned for 'bark training'? That would be a great help in the meantime - thank you. I am going to do more research into clicker training and try to perfect that, as she is very responsive to it.

This is a long post, but I thought you guys would also like to see a few photos of Gigi taken yesterday at the park with her favourite toy. She had the time of her life yesterday, chasing after her Frisbee and then having a run through the leaves with a lot of other dogs who were also there. We are so proud of how she has behaved this weekend and we're hoping it will continue! Thank you all very much for taking the time to post such comprehensive and valuable advice - it's very much appreciated.