Non-Linear Dogs

[Carrie]

http://www.nonlineardogs.com/SocOrgDomDog.html

This is something I just now happened on while looking for something else. It's very long and can be read in segments if anyone is interested. It should help clarify why viewing, interacting with or training dogs should not be based on faulty and disproved assumptions. For some reason, these myths of dominance heirarchy and pack theory flourish still.

[RedPowerLady]

I enjoyed the other article you gave me so I may take my time and read this one as well. Thank you.

[c0_re]

Originally Posted by Carrie

http://www.nonlineardogs.com/SocOrgDomDog.html

This is something I just now happened on while looking for something else. It's very long and can be read in segments if anyone is interested. It should help clarify why viewing, interacting with or training dogs should not be based on faulty and disproved assumptions. For some reason, these myths of dominance heirarchy and pack theory flourish still.

Carrie I'm not arguing with you or the argument in general, although you seem to be on a mission so lets please keep this civil. I have learned myself that positive re-enforcement does work and is incredibly effective(and more enjoyable for both owner and animal) Since signing up for this forum I've personally moved from a 100% Cesar Milan style training to a 90% pos and 10% "other" training techniques. The big reason I did this is because I found a dog that my training model didn't work that great(or at all) for and the pos model worked absolute wonders for.

But the reason that so many people still use the "dominance hierarchy and pack theory" is because quite simply it works(more effective in some cases less in others) and in my experience is easier and faster to implement than PURE positive re-enforcement. To say that fear and dominance aren't effective tools for certain training situations is just plain wrong, weather it's "right" or "humane" isn't part of the argument it's about how effective the training model is for that particular task. To be honest I’m not convinced(yet) that EVERY single behavior or dog can be trained with pure positive re-enforcement and am VERY VERY suspect of ANYONE that’s says “their” way works the best for EVERY dog in EVERY situation, statements lke that, not just about dog training but every aspect of life just are not rational or logical in any way shape or form. To me thast called being closed minded.

As just one simple example I’ve never seen a world champion field waterdog\retriever trained using pure positive re-enforcement, again I’m not saying it isn’t possible but I’ve never seen or heard of it being done, I’d like to be proven wrong it just hasn’t happened yet.

Even worse is when the “positive only” people see a incredibly well trained, focused and obedient dog and right away they call it out as a robot all the while secretly wishing their dogs were at that high level when they clearly are not. Calling an incredible dog a robot(because of the training methods used on them) is not only disrespectful but is a slap in the face to that dog and all the work and accomplishments they have achieved.

I guess what I'm trying to say is why don't you politly educate and make suggestions to people instead of trying to jam your beliefs down their throat, trust me long term this is ussualy more effective in all walks of life.

[RedPowerLady]

Originally Posted by c0_re

I guess what I'm trying to say is why don't you politly educate and make suggestions to people instead of trying to jam your beliefs down their throat, trust me long term this is ussualy more effective in all walks of life.

I don't know Carrie and I don't know you but I find the statement above offensive.
I don't know what type of dog forum this is but I've read too many people attacking each other on here. At least in this post all "Carrie" did was post an article and state her beliefs very briefly about it. And now you are calling her out for jamming beliefs down someones throat. What? If you don't like the article she posted then argue with the author. Posting something for someone to read is hardly jamming beliefs down anyone's throat.

And BTW there is nothing wrong with being passionate about methods that are Inhumane. Just because something works. Or you think it works. Does not mean that is doesn't cause pain or hurt. What is wrong with adamantly opposing that?

I was able to have a civil conversation on this site with someone whose beliefs vary quite drastically from my own. And that was nice. Without calling someone out.

I came here to learn about my dog. Not to read Drama.
Thank you and Good Bye.

[Carrie]

Thank you Red. I appreciate your post.

Just because something works. Or you think it works. Does not mean that is doesn't cause pain or hurt.

Exactly. There are so many "experts" out there that think something "works." Take Cesar Milan, for instance and these people who emmulate him. He doesn't have a clue about dogs body language or what phisiological and emotional damage he causes dogs. To him, supressing behavior by putting dogs into a state of learned helplessness IS working. Hah! Disgusting! He's clueless about how dogs' motivations and just pulls out of the air, these wild statements about some invented heirarchy that they have. Why people can't let go of the notion that dogs are watered down wolves, I'll never understand.

Yes, there are a few people that I won't waste but a pinch my scanty free time debating with. Ya gotta look at the sources from where the information comes from, right. I'm an advocate of behaviorism and I am definitely on a mission. The "mission" is the main reason I'm writing a book, a big book at that...(been working on it for quite some time and am getting closer to being finished) is to be one more voice, to get the word out more to main stream pet dog owners...to try and counter act the archaic, unfair way so many dogs are treated because of a lack of education in how dogs are. Not only is it needed to understand dogs, how they think and learn, their history and how that relates, but also how and why humans, the primates of the picture do the things we do where interacting with dogs is concernend.

Change needs to be more than a little trickle. There needs to be a whole lot more voices for dogs because countless dogs are mistreated, abused and thrown out, languishing in shelters because of serious behavior problems that people cause these innocent creatures that humans exploit terribly. You're darn right, Core... I'm on a mission! And if anybody doesn't like it, they can shove it. Nobody's holding a gun to anyone's head and making them read this stuff.

Core...if what you read is causing assault or injury to your esophogus, if education or information from places like Purdue University behavior departments, world renown ethologists, biologists, applied veterinary behaviorists and other highly respected scientists, extensive studies and long time observers of canids offend you, then simply avert your eyes from such "distasteful" threads. Take that loathsome, repetative, self-medicating aggression of yours and work it's magic elsewhere.

[GSD]

What is wrong with adamantly opposing that?

There is nothing wrong with opposing it, but when you get down to a level of insulting and degrading everyone that thinks something a little different people tend to get a little offended. This board used to be a pretty cool place. I stay because its one of the first places on the interent i ever "joined", but more than a few have left because they were sick of being called uneducated, archaic, and barbaric fools by a certain person.

The fact remains that there is more than enough "behavior departments, world renown ethologists, biologists, applied veterinary behaviorists and other highly respected scientists, extensive studies and long time observers of canids " that have produced evidence to the contrary of what some would like us to believe. Everyone tends to agree that in the past far to much reliance was given to one method of dog training, since then lots has been discovered to show how other ways influence dog behavior. I think that is great, and so does most everyone else. But some have taken this to mean that everything that was learned in the previously is useless.

Links have been given, quotes, texts to read over the years, and maybe it doesn't quite fit with someone's moral compass. To me those with such a narrow view on dog training are no different than the group they adamantly oppose. That's fine, but at least be repsectful towards others that happen to know that dogs learn from 4 quadrants. They chose to use all that they can in their training. The most successful dog trainers I know do, ALL of them. There isn't one at the top of the game that doesn't. CM isn't on that list, but he's a great target for some in certain circles.

There are highly skilled trainers out there that have seen and done more in 20 years than some have seen in 50+. Understanding the risks and rewards of using different things to train different dogs, doesn't make them abusive, uneducated or an idiot.

[Carrie]

You just show me where I personally insulted someone other than from a defensive position. Where did I call someone here all those names? You better be careful you don't put yourself right smack dab into the slander category.

No..your quotes, texts about the virtues of the kind of punishment you think is okay defintely do NOT fit with my moral "compass." You're absolutely right about that. I don't have a lick of respect for trainers or anyone else who can't train a dog without a choke collar and other painful, intimidating, threatening acts toward dogs.

Regardless, this is off topic from the contents of the article I posted for the purpose of sharing some interesting views on what makes scientists or anyone come to conclusions and how difficult it is to make a completely pure conclusion... how certain events in history affected that very thing. But of course, I'm sure some just couldn't be bothered to even find out what it was about. Or are you and Core stalking me and sabotaging anything I post? There's a bit of a pattern and it sure is beginning to look that way. I knew there was a reason this place was such a ghost town.

Hey...the last one to leave, turn out the lights.

[Novel]

From the article:

Dominance hierarchies do not exist and are in fact impossible to construct without entering the realm of human projection and fantasy.

I learned in elementary schools that when you are being asked to choose if a statement is true or false you should look for "cue" words. Words like "never" or "always" are more often than not false statements because we all know very few things are "always" or "never". In the statement above, which is in the opening paragraph of the article posted, it uses the word "impossible". My doubts about the validity of the rest of the article are thus raised.

Since this seems to be the same old argument hashed out again, I'll repsectfully thank Carrie for the article and we can all do with it as we see fit, if it be that it changes our current opionion or strengthens what we already believe, so be it, but lets discuss the facts and not let our emotions cloud the discussion.

[Cassiepeia]

Alrighty, enough. This thread is for talk about the dog behaviour and training, not the person who posted it. Unless the conversation stays on track I will close the thread.
Please do not bring up past problems in this forum, if you wish to discuss any personal problems, do it in PM.

Now...hopefully...on with the dicussion.

Cass.