Dominance and/or fear aggression--how do I handle??

[TinyAlbinoDancer]

Hi all, I know I haven't been on in ages (like how I come back asking for something? ), but I'm back needing some good advice. I recently took in another foster (same situation as Ollie, where the owner was going into the shelter system and couldn't take the dog. So the dog will be going back to her once she's back on her feet) and we're having some issues. The dog is 2-3 years old, female (her name is Lucy AKA Lulu ), spayed, and used to being an only dog. The night they brought her over, she was acting aggressive towards my dogs (nipping their feet, growling at them) while she was on her owner's lap, and she growled and snapped at anyone that her owner tried to hand her to. Since then she's growled and snapped at us a few times while we were trying to handle her, but the snapping is more warning than contact. Today I was putting her collar back on and she started growling and biting me gently (more like a play bite, but she looked really nervous). She's very timid when you approach her or ask her to approach you (she won't do that), hates being pet on the head or back, etc. And she continues to growl at the other dogs when she's above them on furniture or what not.

The only thing I know to do for this is NILIF?? I need lots of help because she'll actually be staying at my boyfriend's house (I was asked to take her but felt my 5 were enough, and thought she'd do better with my boyfriend's one dog), and he has a dog but no experience with body language and such. The best part is that he's not afraid of her growling and snapping like I am (a little, once I figured out she won't maim me like one of my past fosters :-P). So please..books, articles, experience, anything!! We'd SO appreciate it, and her owner will too when she gets her back, I'm sure! She pretty much spoiled Lucy rotten, so we have some work to do to be able to live with her. :P lol Thanks all!

[GSD]

It's really hard to know without seeing and interacting with a dog. If aggressive displays are just that, displays, but you know the dog isn't backing anything up, I ignore completely when they do that stuff and I mean completely. Once their reaction doesn't get any from me it's easier to change things.

NILF is great for lots of things. you're not going to do any harm at all by using it, and it will help. But really it's hard to say what is causing it without seeing it in person and seeing it in different situations.

[dogs4life]

I agree with GSD, it's really hard to tell without seeing her. But if I were to guess, I'd bet poor Lucy is overwhelmed, scared and insecure. I think she was just giving warning nibbles if it felt like mouthing.

I agree NILIF might help ease the transition but training and bonding will help a lot with confidence. Keeping corrections to a bare minimum with Hank has help us heaps, also desensitizing is helping with Hank's fearfulness of certain sounds the trick is to find the triggers.

There's lots of books out there regarding scared and fearful dogs. I have not read any of them but I've heard great things about Scaredy Dog, Cautious Canine, How to Right a Dog Gone Wrong and Calming Signals.

You might also enjoy Feeling Outnumbered? How to Manage your Multi-Dog Household.

I hope others will have more suggestions for you, sounds like poor Lucy really needs you guys. Good for you for taking her in and working with her.

[TinyAlbinoDancer]

GSD- Do you have any suggestions for overly timid/fearful dogs?? That's my main concern, I think, as it seems to be the root of most of the aggression toward people. The aggression towards the other dogs is classic (they approach while she's begging for food type thing), and Missie does a lot of the same things (but she's never been allowed to get away with it).

Kendra, can you give me some examples of training and desensitizing you did with Hank? I feel like she needs to be desensitized to touch or something, 'cause she tenses awful fast when you touch any top part of her body (and sometimes others). Thanks SO MUCH for the book recommendations! I'll look into all of those.

Lucy did make progress today by letting herself out using the doggie door, and eating! So that was all good.

[Punkygirl0101]

My Lucy was like that when I got her. She was from a neglectful situation, starved and skin and bones..and we believe abused, possibly beaten. She wouldn't let anyone touch her at all. If you wanted to pick her up, you had to pick her up using a blanket, because she would try and bite you..and then she screamed every time you touched her. Not because it hurt her, but as a way to get you to leave her alone.

She is completely different now. You can touch her, pet her, kiss her, play with her..she doesn't care. We didn't really do anything actually. We just kept picking her up with the blanket method, giving her lots of treats...feeding her of course! And she gradually got better, and better. She still won't let strangers touch her, but people she sees everyday like my family, and my friends who she knows she doesn't try and bite.

Shes a very brave dog!!

[Carrie]

Most behavior like this comes from fear. A confident dog doesn't act like that. A "leader" doesn't act like that. If she has an impovershed socilaization history...if this is the cause, (very common) then it can be very difficult to make up for that lost time. If that critical period from birth to about 4-5 months of age was missed for ample socialization, compensation is almost a lost cause. But some improvement is often made through careful and patient handling.

I would let her come to you rather than try to go to her. Start feeding her yummy treats when you have to do things which seem to trigger these reactions. Work up slowly. Do things gradually. It is not necessary to pat dogs. That is not something they naturally love. They learn to tolerate it and even love it. But this dog doesn't need to be fondled now. Most dogs don't like it on the head. So, don't force patting on her where she's uncomfortable. Let her do the approaching at her own pace. Just kind of exist for now, side by side, quietly, no sudden movements or loud noises. Let things evolve gradually.

Eye contact is another thing that dogs naturally avoid until they believe you that it's a good thing to make eye contact. So, avoid it for a while until she starts being a little more at ease. Then start capturing it and rewarding it. Then you can work up to actively teaching it. You can use a clicker to capture that exact moment that she looks at you. Soon it will be a good thing to her to look at people in the eye.

Use body language that puts fearful dogs at ease; not looking head on at them, turning sideways or backward to them when they seem tense. If you must walk to the dog to leash her or take her outside, walk in an arc to her, not a direct line. Turn your head away. Whenever you do have to approach, (for now) drop some little tid bits of chicken or other scrumptious treat by her. And try not to inadvertantly reinforce the behavior you're trying to get rid of. Be conscious of your timing.

As far as putting a collar on, perhaps it would be more comfortable, less scary for her if you make a big loop in a leash and just sort of drop it around her. I know that makes a slip knot and you have to be careful with it so you don't tighten it up around her throat, but it might be something you could do to ease her into putting your hands on her neck when you're putting a collar on. Meanwhile work on associating anything she perceieves to be scary...with good things. Change her opinion of scary things.

The growling at other dogs is probably resource guarding. For the time being, I'd try to keep her off the couch. There are exercises which you can do to condition her to have a much more favorable opinion of the other dogs. But that is a controlled exericse where basically, the only time ANYTHING good happens is in the presence of the other dogs. She or the other dogs are taken in and out of a room. The good things come to her in the presence of the other dogs and nothing happens when they leave...nothing good...very neutral. You need to figure out what things she values, what motivates her. Food, generally has pretty high value to a dog. Use her meals to reinforce behavior you want her to repeat rather than giving her the whole bowl at once. Start out with less valuable food and use the better treats for harder tasks or later in the session. Of course this won't be just sessions, but random times too that you're working with her. I can imagine that food isn't always high on her mind when she is in the throws of these reactive states. So try to reinforce her by capturing the behavior you like before she gets into these reactive states. Try to prevent her from being over whelmed in the first place when possible.

In addition, be careful not to make a big fuss over her when she is reacting with behvaiors you're trying to extinguish. It's very important to remain calm and quiet around her, but decisive with your decisions and consistent.

NILIF is great and certainly does teach the dog some manners. But I have found that when carried to the extreme, it can end up where the dog's enthusiasm for learning wanes a little. I prefer "some things in life are free." Teaching default behvaiors instead of cueing every behavior still teaches manners but you don't have to work so hard and constantly be telling the dog what to do. You just fade the cues and do a lot of waiting. The dog guesses and when he hits on the right behavior, click and treat. BTW, clicker training is usually very successful with timid dogs. The communication is concise. Sometimes you have to muffle the sound a little. They even make some of them with a volume adjustment.

But mostly, with a dog like this, time is the best healer. It needs to be proven to her that nothing terrible is going to happen when around humans or other dogs. And that you will provide the things she likes and needs. And that some of those things will be contingent on her behavior. But you can't get behavior you like which is long lasting without an honest change in her underlying emotions and opionions of things. And behavior brought on by mere supression is no good either. It's very important not to punish her for growling or snapping. It can just escalate that by making her more defensive. Change her view point. Prove to her that things and people are safe. And that any small improvement in her behavior will be rewarded.

Have patience, give her time. I hope things will improve.

[Ritz459]

We sadly have many dogs that come in for boarding that act just like Lulu. While I've never had to live with it, I do have to deal with it in at work.

You just have to go slow. I take a no-nonsense approach with them (I don't care if you are kicking and screaming, this is still going to happen), but that is because I have to if I want to get them out of their kennel and outside to go to the bathroom and I don't have time to sit there for an hour trying to make them comfortable. I do try to take it as slowly has I can. The key with them is to never reach above them, bend over them, lean towards them, or touch them more than you have to. To remove leashes and collars, I always bend away and reach under their chin while avoiding eye contact. No loud noises, no sudden movements. Let the dog approach you on its own time. It might take a while, but eventually the dog realises that you aren't scary. At that time, it is even more crutial you don't scare the dog, or all of that work will be lost. Some dogs I've never been able to get to accept me, but they at least don't try to attack me.

Body posture is a big thing for these dogs. Right now in at work there is a Pug and a Mastiff (same family) who are VERY insecure. They don't like me taking them out to go to the bathroom, they don't want to be touched, they just aren't happy campers. They don't growl/bite, but their whole body posture is just "I want to vanish". I can stop those to dogs in their tracks and make them turn around the other way just by barely leaning or bending forward.

[Carrie]

Something else I recommend, if you're not all that familiar with "reading" dogs expressions and body language is to read up on that. And you get better at it with practice. Dogs read our expressions and moods, body language like pros. It's behooved them for thousands of years to do so, living around humans. But our dogs and we benefit too by our watching and learning to read them better. Charles Darwin found that all animals, humans included show the same kinds of facial expressions to match the same kinds of emotions.

We can gesture though, in ways that cause our dogs more fear or confusion when we don't mean to. Certain things we do are more in line with primates, such as eye contact, leaning and bending forward, hugging...stuff like that doesn't mean to dogs what it means to primates.

One example: One of my recent clients is a kind of loud man...very jovial and nice but boistrous. His dog is rather on the shy side. And he'll "reward" the dog by patting him hard on the sides and loudly exclaiming, "Good boy!" He means to be friendly. The dog shrinks back, ears back, tail a little bit down, eyes are round...and looks like, "Oh my God, what have I done?" The guy is inadvertantly punishing the dog for just complying with coming to him....or heeling. I must try to point this out without hurting the guy's feelings. He needs to learn to read his dog better and adjust his way of interacting with his particular, somewhat shy dog.

I have another new person I've been making house calls to, an older woman who talks too much to her dog...is constantly nagging, mildly scolding and not showing the dog a dang thing. The dog doesn't look at her...turns her head away and does a lot of scratching. She can not get the dog's attention. This dog is tuning her out and trying to turn her off by showing her these appeasement behaviors. Or calming behaviors. So, before any training can happen, she's going to have to learn to read what her dog is trying to tell her and adjust her own behavior.

So, as humans, we should really become more aware of what our dogs are trying to tell us. Reading and seeing pictures about these things can help a lot along with familiarity, experience and practice.

[dogs4life]

Originally Posted by TinyAlbinoDancer

Kendra, can you give me some examples of training and desensitizing you did with Hank? I feel like she needs to be desensitized to touch or something, 'cause she tenses awful fast when you touch any top part of her body (and sometimes others). Thanks SO MUCH for the book recommendations! I'll look into all of those.

You're welcome.

We desensitized Hank to the clicker noise. We turned the clicker from a sound aversion to a positive response by luring him near the trigger (the click). I got the $0.99 canvas tool belt/man apron from HomeDepot then I filled it with chicken, goat cheese, peanut butter on a spoon and clickers. I wore the "apron" around all day (Poor Jeff was embarrassed, the apron is really ugly...poor man has to put up with lots) then I click/treat for random "good" behavior. It took a long time but he got it, click = reward. Since Hank is very food motivated, this worked really well. Although when using food rewards I had to use the highest value treats possible, he would not tolerate the click for any ordinary treat. I had to use he couldn't resist, in fact I could lure Hank anywhere (into the tub, over a teeter, into a kiddy pool, hold still for nail clippings, etc) with high value rewards because he's so focused on the reward, he forgets to pay attention.

With the NILIF, I'd practice this with all dogs in the house, especially with food/meals. I'd also hand feed Lucy until you get a better bond. Make all the dogs "work" for 100% of their calories. For Lucy, I'd keep the "work" part realistic and appropriate for her issues, like feed her if she comes near you, follows you, lays or sits by you OR is sitting calm by other dogs.

Love to hear what works for you and Lucy!

I guess we did it similar to Carrie's response, we coupled basic shaping with NILIF principals.

Originally Posted by Carrie

NILIF is great and certainly does teach the dog some manners. But I have found that when carried to the extreme, it can end up where the dog's enthusiasm for learning wanes a little. I prefer "some things in life are free." Teaching default behvaiors instead of cueing every behavior still teaches manners but you don't have to work so hard and constantly be telling the dog what to do. You just fade the cues and do a lot of waiting. The dog guesses and when he hits on the right behavior, click and treat. BTW, clicker training is usually very successful with timid dogs. The communication is concise. Sometimes you have to muffle the sound a little. They even make some of them with a volume adjustment.

But mostly, with a dog like this, time is the best healer. It needs to be proven to her that nothing terrible is going to happen when around humans or other dogs. And that you will provide the things she likes and needs. And that some of those things will be contingent on her behavior. But you can't get behavior you like which is long lasting without an honest change in her underlying emotions and opionions of things. And behavior brought on by mere supression is no good either. It's very important not to punish her for growling or snapping. It can just escalate that by making her more defensive. Change her view point. Prove to her that things and people are safe. And that any small improvement in her behavior will be rewarded.

Have patience, give her time.

[TinyAlbinoDancer]

Carrie, I feel I am pretty good at understanding dog body language from experience and Stanley Coren's book (what's it called? How to Speak Dog, maybe?). I lent the book to my boyfriend and gave him a crash course so he can read Lucy better and respond accordingly. We'll continue learning and practicing when I take her to him this weekend. I'm really excited to try the clicker and these other techniques you guys have shared! I've been lax here because giving any dog a treat in this house causes mayhem (I know, my bad with my dogs ), so verbal rewards has been it, and I've cut back on the physical touch since she seems to dislike it (petting anyway. She does like to sit on your lap or close to you). She's really attached herself to my dad and my boyfriend (when he's here), which is interesting since her owner was a woman. I think the men's confidence calms her and makes her feel secure or something. She even seems to enjoy my dad's heavy hand when he's petting her. lol

Any other suggestions you can think of, let me know! I'll keep you guys updated after this weekend when we're able to really start working with her.

Oh, one more question... She is 'possessive' and typically only attacks the other dogs (not full blown, just nipping and intense growls) when they are in her personal space (trying to get a toy she has, approaching the person she's close to, walking up while she's begging for food, lying close to her on a bed or couch). Should we just do positive associations with other dogs for this or is there more that could/should be done to help her get over it?

Thanks so much y'all!

[Carrie]

That is good because it's soooo important to be able to read their posturing and facial expressions. It helps you know what their motivations are or what might be in their heads..how they're feeling. I've heard good things about his books. I also recommend for that, Patricia McConnell's book, For the love of a dog....excellent, although I don't agree with her on a few things, like social rank in dogs or a linear heirarchy, due to extensive research I've done more recently. But she really gets after the body language and facial expressions too...very good. Whether these signs and behavior have anything to do with a stable ranking system has never been proven.

Anyhow...if other dogs are being rude and encroaching on her personal space or if she's trying to defend her stuff, it's perfectly within the bounds of doggie rules to warn them to stay away.

So, if you want to condition her to not being as worried about the couch or you (as a possession) or some other things, you can do some active exercises. But I would never expect a dog to just lie there and take it if another dog is coming close to her toy or trying to invade her place on the couch. I'd just let her handle it as long as they're respecting her growls, backing off and it doesn't look like a fight is going to break out. And as long as it's not causing her terrible stress, a lot of the time and as long as she bounces back from this stress. If it's too much, too frequent, try to physically give her some space for now by keeping the other dogs away a little bit. When they stay back, reward them conistently. Once they're getting onto it, making the connection that they get something good when they're not too close, add a cue to this behavior, like...."away" or whatever you want to use.

You can also try keeping high value toys out of the picture when they're all together. As far as humans go, you can practice trading her for something better if you have to take something. Or if she's worried when humans come near her stuff, just walk past and drop a piece of chicken for her. Let her know that people coming near her stuff is actually a good thing. (Of course you have to be careful the other dogs don't get in there and take her treat or whatever) Again, teach them that by staying back, they get the toy or treat, but not by coming near her, not by direct access.

Otherwise...if she's growling and upset if she's on the couch and another dog comes near, but doesn't look like he's going to oust her from her place, you can start doing that which I described. Have someone else bring the other dog into the room on a leash and in his presence, start feeding her tiny, tasty treats or giving her attention....just 15-30 seconds. Then have the other dog removed from the room. You get up and walk away or just sit there, giving her NO attention or treats. 30 seconds later, repeat. Try this in different rooms and contexts....with different resources that she is afraid she'll lose on account of the other dogs. Eventually, she'll associate the other dogs' presence with the things she likes. "Oh...when so and so is in here, everything is great! I like it when he hangs out."

You can even teach her "off" so that she can be off the couch and have her on a leash too. Bring in the other dog and invite her onto the couch, give treats and attention, then remove the other dog and ask her to "off"...get off the couch. Repeat. I don't know how long it will take her to connect that other dogs around her stuff is a good thing. It can vary and it depends how much you work with her. I'd do this as many times a day as is reasonable...that you have time for, but keep the sessions short...maybe like 10 repititions. Start out with one possession and then next time practice using another possession.

If you're the possession and she gets growly when the other dog is around, you leave the room promptly. Wait 30 seconds and return. Give her attention/treats in the other dog's presence. The second (and I mean immediate) she gets snarky, turn and quickly leave the room. Repeat. In other words, that reaction she's giving will prove to be useless to get what she wants. And calm, relaxed behavior will bring on the good stuff.

You can do other things as she becomes less shy...confidence building games. If she likes tug, that's a good one. Obedience skills also builds confidence. A confident dog is a much safer and happier dog.

But it sounds like the other dogs can use some lessons too in how to respect her space a little bit. So, you can clicker train them too, to stay back from her space or her things.

I'm hopeful that in time, she'll get use to them and lose some of that fear and possessiveness as long as she's prevented from being over whelmed now. And with some pro-active practice.

Praise is great. It's always good for most dogs to hear your sweet, loving voice. But again, reaching out, looming over, patting, especially on the head or back and talking a lot to this dog probably is more of a punishment than a reward. Praise generally it's not high enough on the heirarchy of reinforcers to consistently ensure higher odds of her giving a correct response and giving that response more often. If a dog is trained with a lot of corrections, then praise is better than being scolded or yanked on. And it can also be a conditioned reinforcer when paired with food, as a Pavlovian response. But it's marginal in its value as a strong, reliable reinforcer. If you find something the dog really really loves....and is a primary reinforcer, (something the dog needs to survive and it can be something that represents or is related to survival or survival instincts, like for a high prey driven dog....a rabbit skin dragged on a string or a dog that wants to go outside badly, opening the door for him or something the dog reeeeeelly wants in a given context) you'll find training and conditioning will go much faster and more thoroughly. Food generally has high value to a scavenger/predator. Work with her when she's a bit hungry...like before meals and in the middle of the day, if possible. Use higher value treats if you have to. You can start out with part of her meal ration. But don't start with super scrumptious treats and then back off to kibble in the same session. Then the kibble really looses value. LOL.

Anyhow....this is long, I know but those are some thoughts I had.

[TinyAlbinoDancer]

Just a quick update: Lucy is doing GREAT living at my boyfriend's house. Less people, less dogs=less stress. She is doing progressively better with their JRT (they just ignore each other for the most part), and she's comfortable and happy most of the time. She bit my boyfriend's brother (who she's had a hard time with from the beginning due to his loud and quick mannerisms), without drawing blood, when he was in a hurry trying to crate her, but other than that she's done excellent with most any kind of touch. She's turned into a very playful little lovebug with a few quirks that you mostly just work around. So thank you all for your suggestions. We're keeping up with rewarding good behaviors and avoiding or desensitizing triggers.