The BIG Challenge

[Crossfire Bulldogs]

After reading through the current debate on prongs and E collars I thought I'd bring up a question. Nope, no one for debate but one that fits my particular breed of choice.

I'd like your opinions on how you would proceed in your course of training with a Bulldog to walk on a lead without pulling. Bulldogs are notorious for their strong will, well muscled necks ( if they have much of one at all lol ) and high pain tolerance. As a whole, the breed does not do well with prong collars as it has very little effect, E collars typically provide no more than a nice scratch around the neck and choke chains do little to nothing as well as increase the risk for a collapse of the trachea on an already short nosed breed.

I do have certain ways of training and have never had difficulty in lead training or keeping a bully under control but I'm always looking for new ideas and new things to try. I'm sure that there are many other dogs, while it may not be a problem with the breed as a whole do have a few "problem children" that don't do well with the typical lead training. What do you do?

[Carrie]

I'm sure that there are many other dogs, while it may not be a problem with the breed as a whole do have a few "problem children" that don't do well with the typical lead training. What do you do?

Speaking of problem children, (LOL) I can relate. I've never had a dog who was as hard to get to walk nicely on a loose leash as Lyric, my Doberman. All other dogs learned within weeks to walk nicely. He is definitely my problem child. And, it seems to be very typical with this breed. On a Doberman board I go on, even the very best trained Dobes are STILL brats when walking on a loose leash.

What do I do? Get my leash, a few cigerettes and a big wad of chewing gum and brace myself. Oh, yes....how can I forget???? The treats! Don't let me forget to bring my treats. LOL.

Then I bravely go out the door for yet another refresher course. He gets to run wild for a while and get the zoomies out. Then it's on with the leash. But first, we brush up on "watch me." (You little ****, watch me.) Lyric knows I have treats by this time and is a little hungry because I try to do this when he is due for his next meal pretty soon. Then it's, "let's go." Then it's....oh, here we go again....STOP. La-di-da-di-da. I wait for him to look at me like, "What gives? Are you coming or what?" And he comes toward me, at which time I proceed walking where he wants to go....forward. When there is slack, I calmly tell him, "gooooooood" and give a treat. When there is tension, I immediately stop again. (never, ever take a step while he is pulling) And vary with turning... random, zig zag turns or going the complete other direction. He wonders what's coming next and starts paying more attention. He doesn't like it when all of a sudden I go the other way so now he's more on his toes and ready to go with me rather than go without me. (when I turn suddenly, I do have to be gradual while I'm being sudden (lol), as not to hurt his neck) It usually takes about 15 minutes to get him to believe me that it's more comfortable and rewarding to walk nicely.

Then I'll throw in some heeling practice off and on. I try to show him exactly where he needs to be as opposed to an aproximate area on the loose walking. And I try to find a safe place to let him run off leash. He seems to need to be reminded that there are THREE different types of walks; heeling, walking nicely on a loose lead and being free to do the zoomies. And never the tween shall meet. They are seperate activities. LOL.

We don't practice enough with the leash around home, I must admit. Those off leash hikes in the woods are so much fun. But when I go visit in Seattle and must use a leash, we have to refresh his memory every time. Well, I don't think it's his memory. I think it's his high drive and exuberance. He just flat out wants to explore the world and I have to make sure that he finally discovers that my way is actually more fun and more tasty than his way.

[BuddysMom]

I don't know what i'd do with a Bulldog, as they are i'm sure MUCH stronger than Buddy [lab/hound mix]. But when I first got Buddy we had lots of work to do with leash walking. I have no idea how I got him to walk on the leash as nicely as he does now, but something worked! I used a halti for awhile with him, and he hated it, so maybe that did something, but he was already pretty good on the leash at that point already.

[Carrie]

Well, yes...a Bulldog probably has more torque than a Doberman or Lab, hound, almost anything. So, you'll have to start doing push-ups Sonja. Bwa-ha-ha-ha. I don't know....are you still stronger than your dogs? Are you able to stop and physically restrain them or make turns and encourage them with food and excitement to come along? Maybe you could practice in a small place first, like your living room. (?) Just grasping here for straws. lol

[Crossfire Bulldogs]

Well Carrie, I am getting older thats for sure and lifting / restraining 60+ pounds of pure muscle when it doesn't want to go or doesn't want to do what you want isn't getting any easier as the years go by that for sure! lol

Bullies are low to the ground and if they don't want to do something such as move with you or even be on their lead they tend to become either great pullers or large lumps of dead weight. While many are very food motivated and do well with treats most prefer nothing more than good old praise to get them going. The key is thinking ahead of them, although some may think their not the brightest bulb in the pack from their facial features and expressions they really are a very smart breed.

My largest male Drew is 80+ pounds and if he doesn't want to do something, trust me, it isn't going to happen unless he thinks it was his idea! lol Drew however is VERY food motivated and would do the limbo if asked for nothing more than a bit of cheese or hotdog. He as well as just about any bully I've ever met thrive on praise, their a very people oriented dog and want nothing more than to please their owner and please they will if given enough to boost their pride and ego.

Now here we get into my problem child.....Grace, shes a VERY large boned, well muscled bitch weighing in at 65 pounds and a bully who is HIGH on energy. Grace doesn't know her own strength, thinks she's the size of a small dog and bounces happily along without a clue. Gracie doesn't sit still for a second unless shes sleeping and spends most of her time bouncing from place to place.

When excited Gracie will not only jump full blast right at you but will then go down on her front on mouth your shoes to death. She doesn't mouth hard but enough for you to know shes right there and its something she'll do wether your a still or moving target. Food doesn't interest her, praise does what it should, gets her excited which is the last thing she needs and kneeing or stepping back when she jumps up is nothing more than a challenge and game for her.

Put her on a lead and she'll jump, pull, mouth and roll until she's gotten herself so worked up shes turning blue. The ONLY way to calm her down once she blasts off is to put your hand on the very top of her head and whisper to her, great for stopping her but once you remove your hand she blasts off again. Other than that, pick her up with all four off the floor and she'll be as still as she can....as soon as the feet are down...BOOM off we go again! I love my Grace Ann with all my heart and soul but there are days where I just have NO patience for her antics.

I have found something that works somewhat but I'm curious as to what you all would do with her? By the way, if anyone was thinking alpha rolling might help or that she hasn't a clue who the alpha is.....nope, she already submits and knows who the alpha is but goes right back to little Miss Bouncy once up. It isn't an issue of knowing who is boss so much as its A.D.D.! lol She will listen if I become VERY angry at her and will keep her distance but just bounces from afar. Water bottles are great fun and loud noises just make her ten times worse.

[Alexis]

Godiva is very strong, exuberant, and a bit ADD . I found the only thing that helped was a harness called Sense-ation. You clip the leash to the front, so it has the same idea as the Halti except that it is not pulling thier face, it is pulling their shoulders and chest around. She fortunatly is a good listener, just very strong. AS for your Grace (which is my mom's name btw.... ) I would look for a no-jumping harness (if all else failed and that was my last resort). She sounds like quite the character!

[Carrie]

How about a valium? One for each of you.

She sounds like a roaring character. How old is she? 65LBS for a youngster is definitely a handful. Lyric is 95 LBS of pure muscle, heavy bone and a mind of his own at times and at others, the perfect employee.... and if I didn't get him going while the going was good way back at 8 weeks, I'd have been in trouble. LOL.

I guess I'd try no leash or any equipment for a while and get her to come along for the sheer fun of it. If she doesn't come along, just keep walking and ignore her craziness. The instant she walks or trots along pretty decently, bend over and give her what she wants. Maybe some really fantastic treat would help, better than what she's had before and of course all that praise she loves. My dogs like sea food too...had to stop at Pike Place Market when I was just in Seattle. LOL.

I don't know....you've probably already tried about everything. Maybe she'll settle down when she gets a little older. But of course, she needs to get a little background going while she's young. I sometimes think my dogs do better when I haven't paid all that much attention to them just before....like when I'm gone or busy. Then it's like, "Oh goodie, what can I do to please the old bat so I can get some attention." LOL.

[flyndog]

Great visual, Crossfire! How old is Gracie? Why do you think she fights the leash so? Is it a feeling of being trapped? One technique for loose leash training that hasn't been mentioned is targeting. But before you can do any loose leash work, you've got to get the dog's attention. And get it *before* she gets herself worked up. You have to get the dog to believe it's in her best interest (or like you said, "her idea" )to do what you ask, and get her to believe you when you tell her something. So the first thing I would work on is getting her to look to you the minute she starts to alert on whatever is around that is arousing her (*before* she gets fully aroused). Most people, even experienced handlers let their dog "default" to the environment. In other words, to respond to, become overreactive to the environment, and then be self-reinforced for it. Then when the owner finally steps in, the dog just sees that as interference. So that would be my first goal - to get Gracie to "default" to you instead of the environment. *Then* I'd work on getting her to leave the leash alone, and walking on the leash. I see more that needs to be learned here than just how to walk on a loose leash!
Kit

[Carrie]

So the first thing I would work on is getting her to look to you the minute she starts to alert on whatever is around that is arousing her (*before* she gets fully aroused). Most people, even experienced handlers let their dog "default" to the environment. In other words, to respond to, become overreactive to the environment, and then be self-reinforced for it. Then when the owner finally steps in, the dog just sees that as interference. So that would be my first goal - to get Gracie to "default" to you instead of the environment.

YES, YES, YES....THAT IS SOOOOOO GOOD! I LOVE THAT!

Totally dude....She has to respect your instruction first. LOL. Then the leash stuff. Scratches head...why didn't I think of that? I could just see her bouncing around like a lunatic and Sonja bending over trying to get her attention...."hey! lookie here. No....not there. Let's go. C'mon." Just joshin. (Gosh, I hope your headache is gone)

You're awesome Kit.

[Pugdawg1]

LOL... the descriptions are giving me a fit of the giggles LOL I can picture that. Grace sounds like a little fireball! A dog I'd love to meet LOL I don't know what I'd tell you to do. With my pugs.. I walk two in harnesses, one in a collar, and one in a harness/collar combo (lead is hooked to both, he pulls with the harness but can back up out of a collar very easily.. so we do both for safety reasons. I tend to jog the first 1/2 mile with bentley and winston.. they get so wound up, it's easier. May kill me in the end, but what the heck LOL

Some folks (again, folks with pugs), swear on those harnesses that hook on the front.. like a gentle leader? But the ones I've send, look really light weight.. I can't imagine a bulldog with one. Such powerful dogs.

I am of no use, yet again, but do keep the stories coming for my own personal amusement. ROFL

[Crossfire Bulldogs]

lol Marnie it really is comical from a distance!

Kit ~ I love your ideas but heres my problem with that, her alert is me or whomever happens to walk into her sight range ( family only as she is very well behaved with guests ) and shes already zoned in before someone can even reach her. She has no problem at all with making eye contact and it doesn't matter where she is, could be anything from in her crate here at home to outside in the middle of a wide open field. If she's awake then tigger she is. Total hands on is the only time she stops moving, if your hand is on her she's as calm as they come, heck, I can even just have one fingertip right on top of her head and she'll stand motionless as long as I keep it there.

Gracie is going on two and she has been with us since the day she was born. I've worked with her since she was first able to get up on her feet, once she figured out how to put on foot in front of the other that was it.....we've been bouncing ever since. lol It really isn't that she fights the lead, matter of fact she really doesn't mind having it on at all but it gets in the way of her bouncing which is what she doesn't care for....gets herself all tangled, rolls because she thinks its fun and finally just works herself into a breathless yet still bouncing heap.

I can put her on lead on gait her as often or as long as I'd like outside on a down and back BUT the minute I stop moving we're back to bouncing. Gracie is all about movement, keep her moving and she's a dream but trying to keep her still is like trying to hold water in your hand. The longest I've ever managed to keep Grace in one place without actually touching her was for a sit and stay..... a timed 30 seconds. Longest thirty seconds of her life, you could literally see every muscle in her body twitch and almost see those wheels spin into overload in that lil' brain of hers.

IF I could package all of her energy and turn it into something productive and fun for her I think we'd both be much happier. I'd love to get her going in agility but as of yet the calmness gods have not blessed us. Gracie is VERY smart but at the same time ignorant if thats even the right word to use. Remember the old saying ignorance is bliss? My Grace Ann is the most blissful girl I know.

[Bullylover]

Sonya,
When you find the best way to train them on a leash, let me know for little princess Shaker!!! She loves to pull and do whatever she likes. Voodoo is good but thats from training him to show.By the way,Hubby thinks he can tame Gracie, lol !!!

[Crossfire Bulldogs]

Bullylover ~ Tell your hubby that Shaker is easy and I'll trade him for a few weeks!! Little Shaker Baker is soooo food motivated we can get her shaped up in no time.

Anytime you want to take on Gracie come on over! She needs someone strong enough to put a binder on that bounce!

[flyndog]

Well, now I'm confused. You want her to walk on a loose leash? Stop wiggling and rolling? Or sit and stay in a position longer than 30 seconds?
What is Gracing doing that you want her to stop doing?
What do you want her to do *instead* of what she's doing? BTW, the lack of the behavior doesn't count as an answer.
Do you massage her?
I still think I'd try targeting.