Why Positive Training?

[doberkim]

just curious as i backread --
why is it so important to muzzle the dog so it can go play with other dogs? if the dogs intention is to bite another dog, do you really think its interested in playing?

im sorry, i just dont agree with muzzling a dog just so it can be around other dogs. if it WANTED to be around other dogs so much, it wouldnt be aggressing towards them. many dogs do just fine without the constant companionship of 20 other dogs and running at dog parks.

[Carrie]

I wouldn't think that someone with a dog aggressive dog would think it likely that the dog likes a lot of other dogs or wants to play with them. Sometimes people need to walk their dogs or have their dogs around other dogs out of necessity and would like everyone to be safe by using a muzzle.

For instance, I live in a remote area. There are really unlimited places I can go for a hike or walk where there is only an infinitesimal chance of running into another dog. But sometimes I need to go somewhere with my dog on a leash where there are going to be other dogs. I am not going there for the purpose that the dogs play or interact at all, for that matter. But I am going to have to walk past them and it could be a lot of dogs. I don't feel the need to use a muzzle because my dog is on a leash and I'm plenty strong enough and bossy enough to keep him under control.

It could be that someone has no place to let their dog run off leash, a natural thing for our dogs to like to do and really needed for good conditioning. So, they go to a dog park where there will be other dogs. Perhaps they would like their aggressive dog to be able to run, play fetch, frisbee... without being a menace or danger to others. So, they use a muzzle.

But again...I don't know (without backreading the thread thoroughly) who expected their dog to play with other dogs while it was wearing a muzzle and at the same time hating the other dog.

[elegy]

Originally Posted by Carrie

It could be that someone has no place to let their dog run off leash, a natural thing for our dogs to like to do and really needed for good conditioning. So, they go to a dog park where there will be other dogs. Perhaps they would like their aggressive dog to be able to run, play fetch, frisbee... without being a menace or danger to others. So, they use a muzzle.

that is such a bad bad bad idea for so many reasons. if a dog is dog aggressive, it is very stressed by being around other dogs. muzzling the dog adds to that dog's stress. it might keep other dogs safe, but what is it doing to the muzzled dog's psyche? and what happens if the muzzle accidentally comes off?

[Carrie]

I don't know Elegy...the answers. My main point was that I didn't notice anyone in this thread wanting their aggressive dog who was wearing a muzzle, to play with another dog. I would like to be able to take a hike with someone, not always all alone and with their dog. My dog may not like it, but I would. I would like to be optimistic that I can get Lyric to be all right with the idea if I condition him gradually. I don't expect or need him to love the other dog, but it would be very nice if he could trot along with the group without so much concern over the other dog....to get use to it. And I would probably not ever feel comfortable if he weren't wearing a muzzle....unless I see that he gets so he actually likes the other dog, as he does a couple of dogs we know. He has a few friends whom he's crazy about and only plays and kisses...never a squabble or anything. So, it's not so much that I need him to love every dog he meets. That's not necessary. But it would be nice if, when I have a friend with a dog, that we could all go together on a hike. It may not work out, but that's what I'm hoping for.

[WingedFoal]

I had begun muzzling Tasmo out in public, simply to keep everyone safe. I live in an apartment in the city, and everywhere I go there's people or other animals (and I'm NOT exaggerating). Sometimes Tasmo would like them, sometimes he wouldn't. Sometimes he would like them, then suddenly change his mind. I didn't want to take the risk of that, and him actually harm someone. Yes, the muzzle stressed him out, but I had to give him exercise. I really didn't like having to take him around anyone (human or animal) but sometimes a person really can't escape to the great wide opens with nobody around. So I definitely see where a muzzle is needed to be around other dogs (and people too).

[Carrie]

Winged Foal,

You just gave a perfect example of why you did what you did. Here was a dog who was stressed and had an agression problem. Do you keep him inside except when you're training or conditioning him to get over this problem and never get him out in the midst of people or dogs for some real exercise? No, you couldn't wait the amount of time that it would take to get him over this problem, if he'd ever get over it. And where you live, there isn't any place to take him where there aren't people or dogs. So, you did what you had to do, muzzled him and got him out and about. Sometimes it's unavoidable and if it stresses them out more, well.....tough luck. They just need to deal with it. (LOL....am I not reasonable?)

I, on the other hand do have the opportunity to be able to give my dogs exercise without coming around other dogs. I'd just like to be able to not worry so much, but that's one of those things and I knew it before I chose to get a Doberman, that male Dobermans are known for this tendancy, neutered or not. I don't worry about other people as he is very, very at ease and use to people...It's just dogs. Grrrr. So, I either have to try to get him use to one or two dogs that are hiking friends' dogs, or forget it and go alone with him.

It's funny...when he's in the middle of a prey drive thing....yesterday, chasing a squirell and another time, chasing a herd of deer, he was still explicitly obedient to the recall. I was impressed with that because he does have quite the prey drive. But I think his pack drive is stronger. Now, if I could just solve or manage this problem.

[doberkim]

Originally Posted by Carrie

I wouldn't think that someone with a dog aggressive dog would think it likely that the dog likes a lot of other dogs or wants to play with them. Sometimes people need to walk their dogs or have their dogs around other dogs out of necessity and would like everyone to be safe by using a muzzle.

For instance, I live in a remote area. There are really unlimited places I can go for a hike or walk where there is only an infinitesimal chance of running into another dog. But sometimes I need to go somewhere with my dog on a leash where there are going to be other dogs. I am not going there for the purpose that the dogs play or interact at all, for that matter. But I am going to have to walk past them and it could be a lot of dogs. I don't feel the need to use a muzzle because my dog is on a leash and I'm plenty strong enough and bossy enough to keep him under control.

It could be that someone has no place to let their dog run off leash, a natural thing for our dogs to like to do and really needed for good conditioning. So, they go to a dog park where there will be other dogs. Perhaps they would like their aggressive dog to be able to run, play fetch, frisbee... without being a menace or danger to others. So, they use a muzzle.

But again...I don't know (without backreading the thread thoroughly) who expected their dog to play with other dogs while it was wearing a muzzle and at the same time hating the other dog.

my point is - if your dog is not controllable on lead around other animals, then it shouldnt be out.

if it is not controllable off lead, it should not be off lead. even if muzzled.

how can a dog enjoy a dog park and "play fetch and frisbee" with a muzzle on?
i personally think its selfish to make lyric wear a muzzle just so that you can go on a hike with someone else. i think thats imposing your own wants on your dog, and clearly if lyric WANTED to do that, he would welcome the other dog around. clearly lyric enjoys his hikes just with you and your other dogs.
if he has dogs that he likes, use them. i just think its ridiculous and unfair to the dog, to make him wear a muzzle while he is supposed to be out having fun -- because while he may grow used to it, its still not fair to him, as well as a bad image for the breed, and a danger. what happens if his muzzle gets stuck on something while hes running and he cant break free, or gets injured? what happens if another animal comes at him and attacks him and he cant defend himself? the only muzzle that would be right for this type of thing would be a basket muzzle, since it would allow him to pant/drink - and that has a LOT of places where things could get stuck.

i just dont believe that the answer is to muzzle him and force him into a situation that he clearly doesnt want to be in. i know many people with dogs that do not get along with many, if any, dogs, and we all seem to manage and have fun. bowie gets along with some dogs exceptionally well, so those are the dogs we go out to places with. i cannot even fathom expecting him to wear a muzzle just so that we could go with someone, or go somewhere else. if i go somewhere, i either have *control* of my animal and him on leash if there is a risk that he may have problems, or leave him at home. its precisely the reason i dont let bowie off leash at big parks. the answer isnt to ignore his problem and just muzzle him so that he cannot FOLLOW THROUGH on the action he wants to commit. the solution for me is to PREVENT the action completely, or better yet, not put him in the position where this action would result.

[elegy]

honestly, if i had a dog that was so unstable that it could not be safely taken out in public without a muzzle, i'd either not ever take that dog out in public or put it to sleep. there is just no excuse for that poor a temperament in any pet dog.

both of my dogs are dog aggro. they're leashed in public and i'm alert to any possible problems. yes, we've been approached by unleashed dogs and yes my heart has jumped into my throat a number of times but my dogs are under my control. it's taken training. it's taken time and desensitization and going places where there are other dogs and feeding a whole bag of tasty treats JUST for paying attention and not aggressing. it's taken keeping them in obedience classes just for the socialization and being required to pay attention and work in close quarters with other dogs.

if you just slap a muzzle on your dog and let it run, what kind of advertisment is that for the breed? ESPECIALLY for a breed like a doberman. buy a leash for crying out loud if he's not trustworthy. how do you think the owner of a dog who gets jumped by your muzzled aggressing dog is going to feel? clearly if you're muzzling him you KNOW he's aggressive. it's irresponsible. pure and simple. irresponsible and selfish.

i find it absolutely ironic that this discussion is going on at all in a thread about pure positive training.

[WingedFoal]

I don't think it is wrong by any means to muzzle an aggressive dog who needs exercise and can't get it without inevitably coming in contact with a person or another dog. Tasmo used to be a wonderful dog to take places, and aggression wasn't a problem. After he started going crazy from the disorder that he had, I still had to find a way to give him what he needed. Not taking him for a walk for exercise was NOT an option, even if it offended people.

No, he didn't like the muzzle, but he did find ways around it to enjoy himself. He mainly enjoyed just being with his family. I took him to the least-crowded places I knew of, just to keep him from getting even more stressed. It was not about torturing him, it was about giving him exercise while at the same time, keeping other creatures safe. If people didn't like seeing a muzzle on my dog, then they could just as easily turn away from him. He wasn't offleash ever (after his whole "disorder" thing kicked in, that is), so they didn't have a reason to be upset.

I had a right to be able to walk my dog, especially if I was taking more than the necessary precautions to keep him from harming someone. And if they judged the WHOLE breed from my ONE muzzled dog, then that person should be classified as dog-dumb and shouldn't even bother with having one.

Of course, I found out that Tasmo was incurable, and ended up putting him to sleep. But he was my best buddy while he was "normal" and I really didn't find it right to put him to sleep just because he was aggressive to others when I took him for exercise for a small portion of time (compared to the many wonderful hours we spent together at the apartment).

[linnie]

Originally Posted by doberkim

my point is - if your dog is not controllable on lead around other animals, then it shouldnt be out.

if it is not controllable off lead, it should not be off lead. even if muzzled.

how can a dog enjoy a dog park and "play fetch and frisbee" with a muzzle on?
i personally think its selfish to make lyric wear a muzzle just so that you can go on a hike with someone else. i think thats imposing your own wants on your dog, and clearly if lyric WANTED to do that, he would welcome the other dog around. clearly lyric enjoys his hikes just with you and your other dogs.
if he has dogs that he likes, use them. i just think its ridiculous and unfair to the dog, to make him wear a muzzle while he is supposed to be out having fun -- because while he may grow used to it, its still not fair to him, as well as a bad image for the breed, and a danger. what happens if his muzzle gets stuck on something while hes running and he cant break free, or gets injured? what happens if another animal comes at him and attacks him and he cant defend himself? the only muzzle that would be right for this type of thing would be a basket muzzle, since it would allow him to pant/drink - and that has a LOT of places where things could get stuck.

i just dont believe that the answer is to muzzle him and force him into a situation that he clearly doesnt want to be in. i know many people with dogs that do not get along with many, if any, dogs, and we all seem to manage and have fun. bowie gets along with some dogs exceptionally well, so those are the dogs we go out to places with. i cannot even fathom expecting him to wear a muzzle just so that we could go with someone, or go somewhere else. if i go somewhere, i either have *control* of my animal and him on leash if there is a risk that he may have problems, or leave him at home. its precisely the reason i dont let bowie off leash at big parks. the answer isnt to ignore his problem and just muzzle him so that he cannot FOLLOW THROUGH on the action he wants to commit. the solution for me is to PREVENT the action completely, or better yet, not put him in the position where this action would result.

I totally dont agree... If you put that in context with having a difficult child would you not take it out because it didnt have social skills?
The idea is that eventually a dog can learn to cope in situations.

[Carrie]

I'm not going to make Lyric wear a muzzle until he is conditioned to it and ONLY if needed. I'm not going to make Lyric like other dogs. I can't. I am going to try and desensatize him in such a way that he won't be lunging at the end of his leash when he sees a dog he doesn't like. (or whatever is in his mind) I am going to work with my friend with the Lab and see if we can desensatize him gradually over a long period of time in a neutral territory. I am hoping that some day we can take a hike together and that the dogs may become friends. Lyric does like some dogs and he just might change his mind about this sweet, girl Lab. I've seen him change his mind about a dog before....a Weim that he started out being nasty to and then decided to play with her along with the dog he already DID love.

I am not a selfish person, especially when it comes to my dogs. No one that knows me ever called me selfish. They, in fact have said that I'm quite unselfish and very honest and fair. So, you're wrong about that. I would not take the hikes with another dog if it meant that my dog would be miserable and upset the whole time. I was hoping, perhaps unrealistically, that he would get habituated to the other dog and, in fact in a while, determine that it was a good time and a dog he liked after all. That was my hope.

Furthermore, I am not going to prevent him from running full speed off leash and keep him on a tight leash for his entire life, every time he goes outside. I happen to live, as mentioned, in an area many of you probably can't imagine. There are thousands upon thousands of acres of wilderness where no people live. There are over 400 miles of groomed trails and a population of 600. Out of those 600, there are a very few, a tip off the iceberg who have dogs. Out of those, there are still fewer who take their dogs for walks. Out of those few, there are still fewer who take their dogs way out in the middle of nowhere. I carry a gun because the only danger is running into a Grizzly or Black bear or possibly a cougar. There are only a few trails, closer in, where there are extreme low odds of running into someone with a dog.... a chance, yes. A chance I will have to take because that is pure ridiculousness to take a dog out there on a leash. If that's the kind of life you think is great for a dog, then who's more miserable?

A Doberman Pinscher need exercise, and a lot of it. It is absolutely necessary for good conditioning of his body as well as his mind. He loves racing along a trail or old logging road. His joy is joy to me. The communion we share together with nature is unbeatable. I would never take that away for the sake of being "safe" on a leash. If one wants to be safe, why go out of the house? I believe in taking reasonable risks but living. I'm not talking about foolish, high risks, but this dog might not live to be 7, for all I know. I'm going to give him a life now, while I can.

[flyndog]

*Who* suggested that a dog should be muzzled and allowed to play with other dog?! I missed that one, Kim.
Kit

[Carrie]

No, I guess a dog can't pick up large items in his teeth with a muzzle on....my mistake there. I did not think a dog who doesn't like dogs would want to play with another dog. I do think every dog would like to run and play without being attached to a 6 ft. leash. If someone lives in the city and there isn't anyplace to let their dog run but a park, and it needs to wear a muzzle, then so be it. A larger dog like a Doberman should probably not live in the heart of a city if there's no place for it to run. They are such active, atheletic dogs and they need exercise every day.

And where did the notion come from that my dog was uncontrolable on a leash? I'm still very much stronger than he is. I'm in good physical condition. My dog is in complete control while on a leash. In fact, he's in darn good control for just being under two yrs. old off leash. (and I don't need a shock collar to get his compliance) It's only other dogs where he isn't. He'll obey me when he's chasing deer, squirrles and other wild life. Every time, so far. I say, "leave it" and "come." And he sees deer and things often while on our walks. He could as easily get his collar stuck on something as his muzzle. He doesn't go more than about 100 feet away from me and stays along the trail. I carry a gun and I know how to use it. He won't be needing to defend himself against a bear or cougar or anything else. He's not some city boy that walks around the block a few times on a 6 ft leash. He's a hard workin' country boy in terrific physical shape, but he'd be hard pressed to take on one of those with or without a muzzle. Bwahahahahaha.

[Carrie]

Boy! do I resent anyone implying that I'm selfish and don't care about my dog! Anyone who knows me around here thinks I'm neurotic and obsessed with my dogs. And maybe I am.

I don't work. I don't go to school. I revolve my life and schedule around my dog's comfort. I can't go when someone asks me to go shopping in the city (1-1/2 hr. drive one way) if it's going to be more than 4 or 5 hours away from my dogs. I don't go out at night until it's their bedtime anyway....7:30 -8 or later. I take them for fun hikes almost every single day, whether I'm sick, hung over, tired or have a lot of yard work or errands to do.

I don't travel anywhere unless I can bring my dogs because I won't leave them in some kennel. I've given up opportunities to travel, all expenses paid to some very desireable, exotic places by boyfriends. I gave up traveling east to visit my dying brother because I couldn't leave my dogs at a kennel and there was no one to care for them to my satisfaction. So, I said "good-bye" to him by mail and phone. I've given up getting to go to concerts or dressy dinners and late night dancing which are too far away that I'd have to stay all night. I have explained that I can do short day trips, but my dogs have always come first and I do not resent it one bit. Those dogs I chose and those dogs I love.

I practice their training with positive, happy methods every day. I don't shock them with electric collars or yell at them harsly. I'm sweet and gentle to them always. I play games and do tricks with them. I take naps with them all cuddled next to me. They are talked to and loved, given affection and attention throughout the day.

They get tidbits of meat and stuff when I'm cooking. I stop what I'm doing when I'm busy to lean over and take a few minutes to love on them. When I push the vacuum, I'll step aside while it's still going and pat my dogs. I can hardly go more than 15 minutes without attending to them.

They are spoiled in that they are use to having me around, but they don't have seperation anxiety when I leave. They are obedient and well behaved as they don't get their own way about everything and they're taught what I DO want from them and rewarded lavishly. They're groomed nicely, they get the best food and vet care. They have free furniture priveleges for their joints and bones and warmth. I spare no expense for my dogs. They are my life.

How dare anyone suggest that I'm selfish because I have a desire to have fun walking with someone else once in a while and have an optomistic hope that my dog may come to enjoy it also? To imply that I would allow my dog to be miserable for more than a short time, in hopes that he might ge