Why Positive Training?

[elegy]

Originally Posted by Carrie

Where did the idea come from that my dog was of poor temperament? He's exceedingly well socialized and quite well trained with the exception of having this dog aggression. He was soicalized to dogs and went to several group classes. He's from a world renoun breeder who earned breeder of the year award for Dobermans and all breed....and Lyric's grandsire won top dog and top doberman in the country more than once. This is not a dog with a poor temperament. He's wonderful with people, discerning, steady, gentlemanly and stable. I could turn him loose in crowd of people and not worry one bit about him....(unless there's a dog, and that is a recent development)

I did not want my dog to be harmed or damaged in any way by trying a walk along side my friend's dog and seeing if he'd get Ok with it. THAT'S WHY I ASKED. THAT'S WHY I MADE THAT OTHER THREAD TO KIT ASKING FOR HELP. I'm appauled at the insults I received in the implication that I'm a selfish person who doesn't care about the well being of my dogs and puts my own wants ahead of my dogs. That's insulting and very stupid.

you were not the person who said you could not take your dog out for a walk without muzzling. wingedfoal did. the comment was directed at her.

if you only wanted kit's input and not any input from the peanut gallery, perhaps you'd be better of PMing her.

[flyndog]

This has become *way* off topic. It has been confused with another thread which happens to have my name in the topic. Carrie did *not* ask my opinion specific to this thread. The topic of *this* post is Positive Reinforcement training. Thanks.
Kit

[doberkim]

Originally Posted by Carrie

I practice their training with positive, happy methods every day. I don't shock them with electric collars or yell at them harsly.

i had a post here, but deleted it. im sick of jabs being taken every single time something happens and my decision to train this way. few people have ever asked me to explain how i use it, why i use it -- i dont need condescending "oh well you tried".

if you think you can do more for my dog, come and get him. hes miserable here anyway, not being able to go off lead and all.

[Carrie]

I never told you that your dog was miserable being off lead. Your dog has skeletal problems, doesn't he? So, of course, he can't and probably wouldn't feel like rip roaring and running around. I wasn't the one who said that you were selfish and putting your needs ahead of your dog's.

I simply wanted to point out that I was not selfish and always put my dogs' needs before my own, that I was asking how to go about getting him OK with walking with another dog at some time in the future...if it was possible. I wanted to correct the way I was being misconstrued, in that I would never cause my dog to be extremely stressed out, that I love my dog. (s) I did not like (naturally) being accused of being some monster to my dogs. That is completely inaccurate.

The thing about the shock collar is that it is also a stress vs. having a dog work for reward only. It may not be a huge stress, but it's not pleasant. I am quite against the use of them because I've seen problem dogs made better without them.

I'm taking Lyric in June to a trainer to get help with his problem. I feel that I need help with that. She won't be using an electric shock collar on him. We'll just have to wait and see if he will become manageable or not.

[Carrie]

Elegy,

Sorry....

No, my dog is great with people. It is dog aggression which is his problem. He can go for walks with a leash on and does not need to be muzzled, as I'm strong enough to keep him from other dogs. He can go off leash where there is practically no chance of seeing another dog, such as the enviornment I described.

Poor Winged Foal had a dog who was biting people, if I've got that correct. I would have done the same thing she felt she needed to do. There would be far too much room for error. I feel she did the right thing. It's a sad, hard thing to have to choose.

I feel for her. If I had a dog who was aggressive to people, I couldn't have people come to my house and you just can't always control who comes to your house. Periodically, I have delivery people and sales people come. They get out of their vehicles and if we're outside, here comes Lyric running. He only watches. He's always discerning. When I come along and speak to the person, Lyric is quite friendly in a reserved sort of way.

I'm sorry if I couldn't tell who your were referring to.

As far as PMing Kit, that is for personal, private conversation that you don't want anyone to read. This, on the other hand is about behavior and training and it is preferred by the forum administrators to put questions like this, (if possible) out there for everyone to read and learn from. So, if someone has a question for Kit or anyone else, where by others may benefit, it is always preferrable to post it publicly.

We have gotten off topic. Kit, you're right. This got intermeshed with that other thread. So, back to the topic of.....(what was it?) Positive training?

No, I won't be putting a muzzle on Lyric because at this point, he wouldn't feel too positive about that. I think it would be neat, if possible, to someday be able to go for a hike with a friend with a dog. It is not necessary, but would be nice. I'm not, contrary to some opinions here, going to make my dog miserable and stressed in order to walk with someone else's dog. I'm not into making my dogs anxious, afraid, stressed or in physical pain...That's why I promote positive training methods.....happy, fun, games, treats, praise...ONLY!

[WingedFoal]

Originally Posted by doberkim

carrie, you are not the only person in this thread that has responded - winged foal has stated repeatedly that her dog was not controllable, which was why she euthanized him.

Just to clarify: My dog was put to sleep because he had a mental condition that caused him to be aggressive, NOT because he wasn't controllable. He was VERY controllable while he was "sane," and even after he got aggressive, I still controlled him easily while on a leash. I would NOT, under ANY circumstances, put a dog to sleep simply because he's "not controllable." If that was the impression I gave, I'm very sorry. But that's just not the case at all.

It wasn't MY dog I was worried about controlling when I went out. It was the other people and animals I couldn't control. I knew not to let him around others, but they didn't know not to get around him. Sometimes, they'd still get around him even after I told them not to. So, it was more of a matter of controlling other people and animals than it was a matter of controlling my dog.

Edit: Sorry for getting off-topic too, but I had to clarify WHY my dog was put to sleep.

[Carrie]

Yup, you had no choice. You can't control other peoples' dogs or other people. And your dog has to have a life and get out. Or, he may as well not have a life. And that is what you decided....that his quality of life was not even close to what it should be, that he was suffering with this disorder. You did the right thing for him and for all. I'm so sorry you had to go through all that. Once in a while there is a dog with something inherently wrong or with a physical malady which causes something like this. Not every situation can be remedied by training. Sometimes, we have to face the facts, (which you did) and do the right thing, (which you also did).

[WingedFoal]

Thank you, Carrie, for understanding. I did give him positive training, and worked very hard with him. He was the best dog I could have ever asked for before he got aggressive - loved both humans and animals, even little guinea pigs, who he'd cuddle happily with. I certainly didn't train him to be aggressive. It was just his illness, or disorder, that treated him badly, and he was miserable from it. It definitely wasn't about what I wanted - Lord knows I would've kept him until old age if it was for my own self! So far, Bitty has been a dream to have, like Tasmo was, and I'm hoping it continues. She's shown NO signs of whatever Tasmo had (they were from two completely different lines anyway). Tomorrow we start our training classes too!!

[Carrie]

Yippeee!!! What kind of class are you taking? That is sooo good for the dogs and fun too! We'll have to compare notes.

Well, hopefully you'll never have to experience that again with your other dogs. It's probably not that common, is it.

You're doing great!

[WingedFoal]

The classes are just the basic "sit, stay" Petsmart classes. I wasn't too interested in them until the trainer (unknown to me) saw me reading about them at the stand, and he came running over to me. He was really nice, and used the lure method (lure the dog into what you want them to do, and I think he lured me into the classes too, lol), and Bitty responded well to him. He could actually hold her attention for more than five seconds!! That's a record for Bitty. If he could simply teach me to do that, I'd be grateful. Also, it's a small class, no more than four or five other dogs, and I was happy about that too. What kind of class is Lyric going to be in?

My doctor said that he's seen and heard about problems like Tasmo's more and more, and that he felt it was the right thing to put him down since he was a hopeless case. He said that Bostons (specifically) are having these kinds of mental issues due to breeders not worrying so much about temperament. I wasn't happy to hear that it's becoming more common, but it is a relief to know that it wasn't exactly my fault either (I do claim fault for supporting whatever it was I was supporting - faulty breeding or what - when I bought him), and that I wasn't the only one who had a Boston with this problem. But Bitty seems to be wonderfully stable, and Tasmo was always just a tiny bit off, so I feel safe now.

[Carrie]

He was really nice, and used the lure method (lure the dog into what you want them to do, and I think he lured me into the classes too, lol),

LOL!!!! That's good!

Say...I've heard good things about Petsmart training classes. That sounds like a lot of one on one attention..such a small group.

Lyric's will have a max of 10 in the class, but she said it may be 5-7...can't be sure yet.

Of course it wasn't your fault for Taz's temperament problems. You sound like you know what you're doing and that you did the best you could. Some dogs are just messed up from genetics. I think the more you work with Bitty, the better.

[WingedFoal]

I've heard both good and bad things about Petsmart classes. But when I saw him work with Bitty, and then I found out that there would be probably no more than five dogs in the entire class, PLUS it would be an eight week class, I was kinda hooked. They've got a whole other room for the classes at this Petsmart too. At the one in Augusta, they just had a little fenced off area and A LOT of dogs (or so it seemed) in each class. I didn't like that at all. But I'm really excited about this class, can you tell???

[Carrie]

Well, hey! As long as the trainer is nice and pretty good, it will still benefit your dog as far as socializing and picking up some tips. You can always change later, if it's not to your liking. The main thing is that the trainer knows something (lol) and uses positive methods and communicates well with you and your dog. IMO.

So, good luck!

[Carrie]

There are some things (many things) we do to our dogs which are not pleasant for them. They are forced into having to go along with it. One example of mine is that Lyric, especially, out of my 3 dogs HATES getting his nails Dremelled. He complies, but he is quite unhappy about it. He's been doing this since he was 9 weeks old and still doesn't like the feeling of those vibrations and the length of time it takes. He gets extra special treats, (cut up steak, chicken, cheese) This has been to try to associate it with something good. He gets only reward, no rough stuff...a little bit of insistance, but not harsh. Sure, I could use clippers and get it over with in a few seconds. But I like the smooth, blunt, non-sharp way the nails turn out with the Dremel. That is for my liking, not his. He couldn't care less.

They all have to have baths and really, only Chuli likes that. They could probably have healthy enough skin if they were only brushed thoroughly every day, (I don't know) but for my enjoyment of them, they need an occasional bath or they'd get smelly....again something they wouldn't care about.

How many dogs love getting their shots or other procedures at the vet's?

Yes, some of these things they have to have done and walking with another dog, they don't.

But, the point is that our dogs must do things that they don't like. We do things that we don't like, as children and as adults. It's part of life. It makes us better able to cope with life and tolerate things. And it's the same with dogs. If you don't have your dog do anything it doesn't like and don't put it into situations, it will be a wuss forever. It won't be very confident. Now, that doesn't mean that you force and don't give the dog some time and gradual conditioning to things. It does not mean that you're mean and brutal about having it do things he doesn't like. But it also doesn't mean avoiding every situation that it doesn't like. The dog has a chance of overcoming, at least to some degree it's stress over things. But it won't if you avoid completely everything it finds a little difficult. There are ways to condition a dog and ways to make it OK with a dog. That's what I am trying to discover with my dog's situation.

[Ritz459]

Well, I agree with postitive training. I don't like the force based meathods. They can be very dangerous. (For instance...this gal had an Aridale Terrier. Now, Terriers are very scrappy dogs and if they get jerked around to much they will retaliate. She was popping that poor thing every single time he steped one toe out of line and I didn't hear her praise the thing once. Well, maybe a flat "Good dog" but I say if the dog doesn't wag his tail while you are praising him, it isn't working. Anyways, that Ariale had had enough and was starting to growl and snap at the girl. I'm 100% sure she would have gotten bitten if one of the trainers hadn't taken the dog away from her.)
The 4H class I'm in uses the forced based meathods, and I do not like the way the train, but since I can do my own thing with Blackie, I don't care much. They show/tell me what they want him to do, and then I improvise so I'm not "forcing" him to do it, I'm showing and then rewarding him. I'm mainly doing these classes to get him socialized.
When we are doing our heels or whatever and he (Blackie) gives a dog the "evil eye" I'll either pop him with the leash or say his name to get him to stop looking at the dog. When he does, I praise the heck out of him.
At the beggining of class when everybody is coming in or whatever, I'll have Blackie in a sit and I'm be running through "sits" and "downs" and "heels" and "stays" and when a dog walks by us, I'll let Blackie chew on a treat until the dog is past and then he gets the t