Why Positive Training?

[flyndog]

Originally Posted by Ritz459

...You don't correct a dog while he is lunging at another dog, you correct him when he starts to think about lunging at the dog...

Oh gosh I'm all giddy! Ritz, you make me proud! Good girl!

[Carrie]

I don't get it....

Well, I am not sure, but I think that if you correct or punish the dog in any way prior to his lunging at the other dog, he hasn't actually done anything yet, hasn't done the aggressive thing....so what are you punishing him for? Thinking about it? Also, I'm thinking....pondering here.....(lol) that if he gets a leash pop and a "no!" or whatever just when he is starting to worry about the other dog, is he going to think, "gee....everytime I see another dog, something uncomfortable happens, my person/owner jerks me or scolds me...hmmm.....that other dog causes all this rotten stuff to happen." So, my understanding is, (and I'll find out more when I go to this trainer) that it's best to teach the dog to divert his attention when asked and to focus on you, not the other dog so much. Then it gets rewarded for watching you and staying calm. The reward comes at these times when there's another dog around....so other dog = special treats, but only when he stays calm. translation to dog: "Oh hmmm....nice....everytime we see another dog, I get something good. I like that dog. He must be a good thing because my master gives me steak and lots of affection whenever we see it. I'm going to stay calm every time because this is really cool."

So, there's 100% "positive" training. There is only something given and that something is good. There is no unpleasantness caused by you. The trick is.....teaching the dog to pay attention to you very, very reliably and well focused. That's where Lyric and I need work....and a lot of it. LOL.

[flyndog]

I applauded Ritz for doing what many (most) dog owners don't do...that is, accurately "read" their dog, be one step ahead of their dog, be able to see a trend developing, and be able to intervene before their dog goes on "auto-pilot". This is what needs to be done to effectively interupt a behavior and counter-condition another in its place. Since this is a thread about Positive training, interuption is the correction that came to my mind. Correction doesn't mean punishment.
Kit

[Carrie]

Ah-ha-a-a-a...Well, yes indeed...it is good to interupt or intercept the dog before it launches. And to give it another replacement behavior to do instead helps further divert it's attention....right? But, my question, I guess would be, to give it a leash pop or jerk in order to interupt the dog before it launches into that out of control behavior is a form of positive punishment...right? And are we not suppose to associate the other dog with only good stuff, like the treat that Ritz showed her dog while another dog was walking by and then gave to her dog? So, I guess I'm a little confused here because I see the 100% positive (as in reward giving) in the association with the treat. But, I see adding a punishment with giving a collar yank when the dog first sees the other dog, but before it's done anything wrong, as in lunging at the dog. This is where I see a potential problem. I would think that diverting the dog's attention ahead of time, just when it first sees the other dog by means of enticement, distraction, giving it another "job" to do to occupy the dog and then rewarding for that AND for being enough distracted to let the other dog walk by without having a tizzy fit. That's what I've been doing with Lyric, more or less. So, that's where my confusion lies....reward or punishment?

So I guess what I'm trying to say is...I agree 100% with postitive training meathods, but I can see how a firm and fair punishment can be ok. And just like when you reward a dog, you have to "punsih" the dog (by way of popping him with the leash, saying "No." or whatever) exactly when he starts to show the behavior. You don't correct a dog while he is lunging at another dog, you correct him when he starts to think about lunging at the dog, because if you correct to late, it isn't teaching him anything. (And like somebody stated earlier, you don't correct a fearful dog. That acomplishes nothing.)

[flyndog]

I stand corrected for not reading the whole post.

[Carrie]

I thought I might have missed something or mixed up something. LOL. Yeah...I think it would be a real mistake to jerk or say no before the dog has even done anything but alert or look at the other dog. What if he weren't going to lunge? Then you're punishing him for just looking. At any rate, I don't think it's a good idea to use a jerk or a "no" in association with another dog. It would indeed be better, as Kit has said in the past, to make that other dog (the bad thing) into a good thing. And only using distraction, another job or skill or "watch me" and then reward for chillin'. LOL.

That's just what I've been doing with Lyric and he's getting a bit better. We don't see other dogs every day so he hasn't had much opportunity to practice. I'll even stand a little in front of him if I am having trouble getting his attention. That's my problem...getting his attention on me and away from the other dog. He can have a one track mind. Grrrr.

[flyndog]

If he's alerted to the other dog, he's a candidate for correction and I don't mean leash pops. If he's dog aggressive or leash aggressive and he's alerted to another dog and not the handler, he's going to lunge or do whatever it is he normally does. There's a difference between "just looking" and alerting. And that's why I commended Ritz. She's learning to read her reactive dog. Unfortunately, she's in a 4H club that uses force-based training. But I have confidence that she'll come around when no longer under the influence.

[Carrie]

If he's alerted to the other dog, he's a candidate for correction and I don't mean leash pops.

What would you do?

If he's dog aggressive or leash aggressive and he's alerted to another dog and not the handler, he's going to lunge or do whatever it is he normally does. There's a difference between "just looking" and alerting.

Oh yes....I know what you mean about the difference. Looking is just looking or watching, but calm enough. And alerting is (in Lyric's case) stiff, kind of tense, ears pricked up, neck arched and realllllly looking. But, in Lyric's case, he does not necessarily lunge and bark viciously every time he looks like that. I have been able to "talk him down." Or change his mind. Maybe I have given a verbal type, sounding warning... like, "leave it." Yeah....once he's that interested, or alerted, it's hard to get his attention on me. But he seems to be improving and getting the idea that I don't go for that crazy acting stuff.

So, do you think at that point where he's all stiff, tense and looking very intently, he should get a strong correction? What happens is, if he does lunge and disrespect the leash, I haven't, for the most part, yelled or jerked, but he ends up jerking himself when he gets to the end of the leash. And I do say, "leave it" in a rather harsh tone. Then he comes back and settles down and only looks. So, what would you say is going on here?

Yes, indeed...Ritz is making her dog improve in leaps and bounds.

[gaddylovesdogs]

If my girls are acting aggressively towards another animal while on a walk (which they don't usually do unless the other animal is threatening them), I give a little tug on the leash and say, "NO". If the dog tries to look at the other animal again, I do the same thing. If another animal is passing by us while I'm walking Tippy I will either do that or have her sit/stay and look at me, and she is not allowed to look at the other animal. It works very well for her and I'm very proud of her.

[flyndog]

Originally Posted by Carrie

So, do you think at that point where he's all stiff, tense and looking very intently, he should get a strong correction?

I don't want to argue semantics. I think he should be interupted from taking it to the next level. I would use a noise and insert the Pay Attention command. He can't do both things at once. I might say Leave It, too. When I had his attention, I'd turn him around and walk him away from whatever he's alerted to. I'd repeat that as many times as it took for the dog to get it.

Originally Posted by carrie

What happens is, if he does lunge and disrespect the leash, I haven't, for the most part, yelled or jerked, but he ends up jerking himself when he gets to the end of the leash. And I do say, "leave it" in a rather harsh tone. Then he comes back and settles down and only looks. So, what would you say is going on here?

I'd say you waited too long to say Leave It.

[Carrie]

I guess he just needs more practice because I do say, "leave it" ahead of time, as a warning (sometimes is works) before he lunges, but when and if he does go off, then I say it again. But I haven't done much in the way of walking away the other direction. That, I'll have to try. I can't wait for this class which is starting this Tues. There, he'll get more intensive practice since around here, there's not enough dogs or opportunity to make it a regular practice.

Thanks for the response!