Why Positive Training?

[Carrie]

I thought this was so good that a trainer wrote, that I asked her if I could put it here. I hope everyone takes it all in. Happy reading.

Okay, this is going to get long and preachy. I probably don't need to add that Doberluv has my complete backing in this case. I also get extremely frustrated (although I do my very best to take it out in my evening exercises) with people taking the "easy way out" with punishment-based training.

Animal behavior is hard to understand; it's simpler to just use aversive consequences to punish behaviors than it is to learn and comprehend the reasons behind behaviors and treat them with an effective positive solution. It was years before the "DogMind" finally clicked with me. Training effectively takes time, effort, empathy, and a lot of brain twisting to see things from the subject's point of view. That's why people ask trainers to help them. We spend 24 hours a day trying to think like our subjects, and to see through their eyes. But then of course we're competing with people who call themselves "trainers" and are really just abusers. They'll beat your dog into submission and charge you for it. They've had us all fooled for years; people who trained without punishment 50 years ago were either magicians or whack-jobs. Now that there's solid ethological evidence to support positive training, why are folks still so stuck on using aversive consequences? Probably because we don't want to acknowledge that it's easier to let our frustration and irritation out on a dog who won't fight back than it is to use that towering intellect we're so convinced we've got. Smacking a dog with a newspaper makes us feel big and in control. Stopping to think about whether we'd like to be smacked with a newspaper never enters into it. Dogs are a socially acceptable outlet for our emotions, good and bad.

But why would a compassionate person, claiming to love their dog, claiming that, "he's like family", do things that cause a dog to be afraid, uncomfortable, or in pain when we know there's a better way? We've developed an entire science to understand animal behavior and learning. We've shown conclusively that animals that learn through positive reinforcement are quicker and more receptive to learning than animals that learn through punishment and aversive consequences. We've developed concrete methods and rules that govern the principles of positive reinforcement in behavior modification. We've applied these methods successfully and praise the people who use them as brilliant teachers of animals.

There is no longer any excuse, short of ignorance, laziness, and disinterest, to use punishment on an animal. We know better now. And those of us who don't know better are obliged to educate themselves. Punishment is cruel, because it has been rendered obsolete in training. If it was our only choice, if it was the only way, it would be an unfortunate necessity. But there is a choice.

Think about this: You've got a whip in your hand and popsicles in the freezer, and your child is in front of the TV wiping boogers on your new carpet. You can use the whip now to punish the undesirable behavior, or you can get off the couch and go to the freezer and get a popsicle, and come allllll the way back to the couch and use the popsicle to reward a desirable behavior (i.e. wiping boogers on a kleenex instead). Do you whip the kid? It'll stop him from putting boogers on your carpet, right? Then why not? Because the freezer isn't actually that far away; because you don't want to cause someone you love unnecessary pain for something as silly as boogers on the carpet; because you feel empathy for the kid; because the kid is just doing what kids do; because you can get the same result with the popsicle. The difference is in how much you actually care about the person you love, and how much effort you're willing to put into teaching them in a humane manner. You can whip, but your relationship will suffer. Positive reinforcement strengthens relationships, and enhances mutual respect and understanding.

I've trained with several different methods. I was taught what most of us grew up with; leash corrections, push on his butt to teach him to sit, rub his nose in it, squeeze his toes or knee his chest when he jumps on you. I began training professionally out of a sincere love of all things canine and because I was absolutely intrigued by behavior. I started out with what I knew. Then I learned about positive reinforcement, and mixed it with punishment training. To my delight, my subjects' learning sped up. As I worked with dogs and learned to really listen to them, I realized that the punishment was only holding us back, tangibly in training but also emotionally. I'd read about the "trainer's dance", people working so well with animals that they can feel the connection in their heads. I badly wanted the dance to come to me. So I just took that last little step and left all the bitter apple, choke chains, and muzzles behind. And again, learning sped up. Suddenly my subjects were geniuses and prodigies, every one.

Positive training is faster, more effective, more humane, and much more fun than punishment-based training. It does wonders for relationships and never fails to amaze those who try it. It's really a modern scientific miracle. It baffles me that some people consider it stupid or ineffective, and it worries me that they aren't willing to learn why it works and how to use it. If we're going to call ourselves compassionate and enlightened, we're going to have to start walking the walk. The way we treat our animals, those who rely on us completely and trust us wholeheartedly, tells more about ourselves than the way we treat each other.
__________________
Emma Lee
Instructor, Relationship Coach
Canine Communications
PM me or send questions to: dogtalk@animail.com
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or post your behavior questions in the Paw Prints section!

[GSD]

There are a few things I agree with and a few others that I don't. Motivational training I feel is above the yank and crank methods of old. I think it does get a little preachy though. I think if you base your training on punishment, more often than not you will not have a good working relationship with your dog. I have never defended this position, nor will I ever. I will however defend using corrections and making some things unpleasant for a dog, depending on the dog. If these unpleasant experiences were so worthless in learning and training and dog behavior, they wouldn't learn from them, nor would they be wired to do so. I do agree with his statement about owners taking out frustrations on their dogs, and i'm sorry, but rubbing their nose in it, and hitting with a newspaper were never a part of any training that I would hear too many people defending. I've learned more about controlling my emotions from my dog than from interacting with people. I NEVER correct my dog when my emotions aren't in check and i'm not thinking clearly. If i'm not clear, the correction won't be clear, and the dog won't be clear with what she did wrong. Again it depends on your dog, how sensitive they are to you and how soft or hard a dog is, these all will influence what type of correction and the level that is appropriate for your dog.

"There is no longer any excuse, short of ignorance, laziness, and disinterest, to use punishment on an animal. We know better now. And those of us who don't know better are obliged to educate themselves. Punishment is cruel, because it has been rendered obsolete in training. If it was our only choice, if it was the only way, it would be an unfortunate necessity. But there is a choice"

I have more than a few problems with this statement.. I am not ignorant, i am most certainly not lazy, not disintersted, and punishment is not cruel and most definatly not rendered obsolete in training. That is an opinion only. I've read more than a few animal behavior books that make claims and show research to support the exact opposite. His example of the popsicle and whip is kind of silly. Most people can realize that a whipping isn't an appropriate punishment for flicking buggars on the carpet. Now if I had a child that smacked another child in the face with a baseball bat, you can believe that I wouldn't be going to get a popsicle, i wouldn't be getting a whip either, but the whole popsicle scenerio sounds just as rediculous when you put it in that context. So you have a dog that snaps at a someone walking by, are you telling me a leash corretion isn't in order?? I can show research that shows it is in order and is better at extinguishing that behavior and they will learn it for much longer, i'm not just making a claim.

"I realized that the punishment was only holding us back, tangibly in training but also emotionally. I'd read about the "trainer's dance", people working so well with animals that they can feel the connection in their heads. I badly wanted the dance to come to me. So I just took that last little step and left all the bitter apple, choke chains, and muzzles behind. And again, learning sped up. Suddenly my subjects were geniuses and prodigies, every one."

This is simply playing on people's emotions and sounds great, but seriously, every subject, a genius and prodigy??? sorry for being skeptical, i've seen a more than few people training dogs in classes and on their own, using all sorts of methods, and very few even qualified as adequate let alone talented,l and certainly very few geniuses or prodigies. and since when was a muzzle a pshycological damaging training tool??? I always thought it was to keep your dog safe and other people safe from uneccessary dog bites. To me it appears at another attempt to just find something associated with "bad" and use it for people's emotions. How many of you felt all warm and gushy after reading that line??? I know I did, i bet barely anyone noticed that the muzzle didn't even belong in that list.

As I said before, i can see why people that work with pet owners push people away from correcting their pets. Most don't spend 5 minutes a day training the dog let alone all the time it takes observing, reading, and learning about how and why an animal reacts to something. Most owners corrections are so mistimed and unfair for the temperment of their dog they are useless anyway.

[Carrie]

Now if I had a child that smacked another child in the face with a baseball bat, you can believe that I wouldn't be going to get a popsicle, i wouldn't be getting a whip either, but the whole popsicle scenerio sounds just as rediculous when you put it in that context.

She's not saying to give the popsicle as a reward for doing that or giving it when the child is doing that. She's saying to give the popsicle when the child using a kleenex instead. That example isn't really good, granted. I don't think I'd bother with a popsicle either for something like that. I'd just hand the child a kleenex and ask them to use that PLEASE! And THANK YOU VERY MUCH. LOL. I'm pretty sure that most children would be fine with using a kleenex.

So you have a dog that snaps at a someone walking by, are you telling me a leash corretion isn't in order?? I can show research that shows it is in order and is better at extinguishing that behavior and they will learn it for much longer, i'm not just making a claim.

I'd like to see that research because most of what I've read and observed/experienced (1st hand with dog to dog aggression) is that associating the thing that the dog is snapping at with another rotten time....ie: yanking the leash or scolding can backfire and cause the dog to react negatively time and time again when it comes close to that object of it's "disdain." A level of fear or concern about what will happen to it contributes to it's reaction. And if it's worried and scared, it views that which it associated with the punishment as the cause of it's pain or scolding. And it "hates" it even more. (of course, if the dog was well socialized and of decent temperament, that scenario probably wouldn't come up)

What seems to work better is to desensatize & habituate the dog to this thing which he is being aggressive to and also to re-direct it's attention away from that person it may snap at or dog it might act aggressively to. What has been shown to work (my experience too,) is to catch it before the dog goes off... and redirect his attention, then give a payoff for giving that attention to me. To begin this process, you need to approach the stimulus from a distance and work from that point, gradually getting closer as the dog learns that there will be a payoff for it's calm behavior AND that there's no need to snap at someone, human or dog. (finding that there's no need comes from gradually getting the dog use to being around what's bothering him, but from a distance, not throwing him right in the midst. After all, you're trying to work on this desensatizing.) Then by redirecting his attention onto you, you are lessening his level of stimulation, his blood pressure lowers, his heart rate slows, his hormones regulate, his blood sugar levels. It's not only psychological, but physiological. And by assisting in creating this state in your dog, you are better able to help him learn, because he's moving out of the fight or flight drive. He needs help to get out of that and then he can learn. He can't be reached while he's in the throws of it.

As I said before, i can see why people that work with pet owners push people away from correcting their pets. Most don't spend 5 minutes a day training the dog let alone all the time it takes observing, reading, and learning about how and why an animal reacts to something. Most owners corrections are so mistimed and unfair for the temperment of their dog they are useless anyway.

How true!

[flyndog]

"They've had us all fooled for years; people who trained without punishment 50 years ago were either magicians or whack-jobs."

I'm not sure what is meant by that, but there were plenty of people 50 years ago who trained using gentle, positive methods. But few were writing books so it wasn't the method du joir. *Everybody* wasn't hanging their dog with a strangle collar or slapping it with a newspaper or something worse, pinching toes, shoving noses into stuff and things, using spike (not prong) collars, or dragging their dog around with a choke chain.

And the reason you don't whip the kid for wiping boogers on the carpet is not

"Because the freezer isn't actually that far away; because you don't want to cause someone you love unnecessary pain for something as silly as boogers on the carpet; because you feel empathy for the kid; because the kid is just doing what kids do; because you can get the same result with the popsicle."

It's because punishment may only supresses behavior (and may actually be a positive reinforcement for a lonely, booger-picking child). Booger wiping on the carpet may decrease after the punishment, the kid will happily continue to wipe boogers in inapproprate places throughout his life as long as that parent (or parent figure) isn't around. For punishment to be effective it has to be appropriate, immediate and harsher than most people can administer it. And the kid will call an abuse hotline.

Because I work with difficult dogs, I very much disagree with the idea that a muzzle is an inapproprate tool. In fact, there's nobody I know that would suggest that a muzzle is inappropriate. I commend owners who are responsible enough to muzzle their aggressive dog when needed so that they can enjoy going places with their dog, the dog can experience a more full life, and keep others safe at the same time. There are dogs I won't work with without a muzzle at first. I need all of my limbs and digits and I've grown accustomed to my face. I don't want to lose any of them.

I don't usually toot my own horn, but since Emma's is pasted all over that post:

Kathie Compton
Pet Dog Trainer
mARFa Dog Training
www.texasdogtrainer.com
(you can PM or email me, too)

[elegy]

Originally Posted by Carrie

I'd like to see that research because most of what I've read and observed/experienced (1st hand with dog to dog aggression) is that associating the thing that the dog is snapping at with another rotten time....ie: yanking the leash or scolding can backfire and cause the dog to react negatively time and time again when it comes close to that object of it's "disdain." A level of fear or concern about what will happen to it contributes to it's reaction. And if it's worried and scared, it views that which it associated with the punishment as the cause of it's pain or scolding. And it "hates" it even more. (of course, if the dog was well socialized and of decent temperament, that scenario probably wouldn't come up)

i'm not a touchy-feely-pure-positive trainer. in fact, there are a number of sections in the original post that offend the crap out of me, but we'll put that aside right now.

my personal experience with aggression has only with my own dog-aggressive dogs, but i have been all over the map in trying to find something that is effective in dealing with it. i have used punishment, leash corrections, etc. while i still use leash corrections in other scenarios, i am to the point where i feel very strongly that physical corrections for aggression are the wrong way to go.

with my dogs i don't think leash corrections caused either of them to get "worried or scared", but i think it egged on their aggression and caused them to get whipped into even more of a frenzy. these are not fearful dogs. they are aggressive by nature because of their breed.

a lot of aggressive dogs are aggressive out of fear. punishing a fearful dog for fear is just going to make the fear and therefore the aggression worse- again, it's not going to work!

there is a fantastic fantastic book by a trainer named brenda aloff about aggression in dogs, how to manage it, how to work with it, and how to prevent it. for anyone interested in aggression or who works with an aggressive dog, i highly recommend it. it's $35 on amazon but it's well worth the money.

[Carrie]

there is a fantastic fantastic book by a trainer named brenda aloff about aggression in dogs, how to manage it, how to work with it, and how to prevent it. for anyone interested in aggression or who works with an aggressive dog, i highly recommend it. it's $35 on amazon but it's well worth the money.

Thanks Elegy! I think I'll get that. I'm having a bit of trouble with dog aggression with Lyric. He has improved quite remarkably recently. I have done that thing where I don't punish him, but try to distract and get his attention and reward. Even when I was in Seattle visiting and walking my dog past a lot of dogs that people walk along Alki Beach, he only barked viciously at one and all the rest of them, he managed to just look at and keep walking.

Oh, and speaking of muzzles, I've been aquainting Lyric with a muzzle, letting him try it on for just a few minutes. He hates it and paws at his face....poor baby. I give him treats and so little by little, I'll get him use to it somewhat. Summer is coming and we do go on off leash hikes. In a few months the odds of running into someone with a dog increase, so, I'm not taking any chances. Right now I'm going places where there is NO ONE around...way the heck out there in no man's land. LOL. I don't think there's anything wrong with a muzzle, as long as it fits right. You have to do what you have to do.

I definitely believe that punishment squashes the behavior, but the underlying catalyst or cause for the behavior is still there....just buried. So, to try and work through it is best. It's like untying a big knot. You have to get all the way through it, not simply smooth out the outside edges.

For punishment to be effective it has to be appropriate, immediate and harsher than most people can administer it.

I don't think that IS effective. Again, it may stop the behavior for the time being, but it doesn't undo the knot inside. If someone is so harsh and they think their dog is behaving, just wait until either the time bomb goes off at some later time, or watch that dog become a shivering mass of nerves...ruined spirit and no personality showing through.

Why do it when good behavior can be brought about with positive, happy, rewarding methods and bad behavior can be extinguished by not giving a payoff, not letting the dog self reward and by offering other replacement behaviors?

[flyndog]

Man, I paid over $35! Brenda has 2 books. The one I think Elegy is referring to is "Aggression in Dogs, Practical Management, Prevention & Behavior Modification". She lays out the protocols. "Fight!" by Jean Donaldson is also good.

[flyndog]

Originally Posted by Carrie

I don't think that IS effective. Again, it may stop the behavior for the time being, but it doesn't undo the knot inside. If someone is so harsh and they think their dog is behaving, just wait until either the time bomb goes off at some later time, or watch that dog become a shivering mass of nerves...ruined spirit and no personality showing through.

Oh, under those conditions it's effective all right. It's just not nice and I don't think ethical. And I would never recommend it for treating aggression.

[elegy]

Originally Posted by flyndog

Man, I paid over $35! Brenda has 2 books. The one I think Elegy is referring to is "Aggression in Dogs, Practical Management, Prevention & Behavior Modification". She lays out the protocols. "Fight!" by Jean Donaldson is also good.

yep, that's the one. i have fight! too but i liked the aloff one better.

pam dennison is supposed to have a book out on treating dog aggression in the very near future which i am looking forward to. i have her bringing light to shadow book and have exchanged some emails with her and i like her very much.

[flyndog]

I've heard only good things about Bringing Light To Shadow. I've got one of Pamela's seminars on video...Camp R.E.W.A.R.D. for Aggressive Dogs. Brenda Aloff was in Dallas this weekend for a seminar and I couldn't go. Grrr.

[Carrie]

Oh, under those conditions it's effective all right. It's just not nice and I don't think ethical. And I would never recommend it for treating aggression

LOL! I guess it must depend on what one's definition of effective is. If simply stopping the aggressive acting out is one's goal, without regard to what may happen later, then it must be effective. If creating a cowering dog who's holding the feelings that are causing the aggression inside... and not dealing with those feelings by only using severe or abusive correction, then to me, that's not effective. For me, effective means stopping the acting out while managing those feelings inside and maintaing the dog's healthy psyche and spirit.

[flyndog]

This is being taken out of context. The context was punishment for booger wiping, not aggression.
Kit