Kit, I need you asap.

[Carrie]

Kit, my friend with a 10 month old, female, spayed Lab, who is so sweet and unworried about anything, and I want to be able to take our dogs for a walk together....NOW! Today. LOL. I would like that, but.....as you know, Lyric has become rather dog aggressive lately. When I drove into his driveway with Lyric in the car, and Lyric saw his Lab, Lyric went balistic, as usual. One time, I had Lyric on a leash and went near his dog and again, Lyric lunged, barking ferociously. I know I should try desensatizing him, which I've worked on somewhat when we see other dogs. But this friend would like us to be able to go for a hike together. He suggested that I put the muzzle on Lyric, (Lyric has worn it once and of course hates it, paws at it and it makes me feel sorry for him.) I need to practice him with it on for short periods and try to get him more use to it. BUT....my question is, do you think that if we go for a hike, start out with a leash and keep the muzzle on him.... and just go along, will Lyric settle down and get use to the other dog and maybe decide this isn't so bad, after all? Or is that too harsh, dumping him into it without a more gradual approach?

Thanks for your expertise in advance.

[Carrie]

Actually, this is for Kit or anyone else who might have some insight for me. Thanks!

[flyndog]

No, I didn't know Lyric was becoming dog aggressive. If you are having trouble with him, you really should get Brenda Aloff's book. Without knowing more details, I personally wouldn't handle it with a muzzle right off the bat, or expect to go hiking together with dogs right away.

I'd suggest meeting at a neutral place, like a park of something. (come at different times. Lab should be there first) Keep Lyric at whatever distance from the Lab he is comfortable with around other dogs (30 feet, 40 feet, 50 feet, whatever), and just work him while the Lab *sits still*. When you've got him looking to you for info, the Lab owner can walk his dog back and forth laterally, but not moving any closer, while you continue to work with Lyric. If Lyric starts to alert to the Lab, ask him to look at you and reward for that. Watch Lyric's body language and keep him busy and focused on you. He'll know the other dog is there.

This is all assuming the Lab is well behaved and won't jump and bark and act silly. She should not call any attention to herself. If she can't do that, then you should work on desensitizing with a well-behaved dog. The owner should gradually move his dog closer to Lyric while still walking back and forth. At no time should the other dog be close enough to set Lyric off. This is a gradual process. When the Lab can come closer without Lyric getting all snarky about it, and focusing on you, not what's going on around him, then I'd put the muzzle on (which he by then is accustomed to because you've been working on that at other times) and try introducing them at the hiking spot instead of your or your friend's house. Keep it neutral territory. If you want more detailed suggestions, PM me.
Kit


Besides being harsh on Lyric who isn't used to the muzzle under non-stressed conditions, the sweet and unworried Lab might think there is something to be worried about if there is an angry, growling Doberman glaring at her the whole time.

[elegy]

i think it would be very unfair and counterproductive to put a muzzle on lyric just so you can take him on a walk with another dog. muzzles make dogs unable to defend themselves and they know that and it can make them even more defensive and aggressive.

the brenda aloff book is fantastic. jean donaldson's book Fight! is also a good book about dog-dog aggression and much cheaper.

i've done a lot of desensitization work with luce and it's time consuming, sometimes boring as anything, and sometimes frustrating but it's the only way i've gotten anywhere with my very dog-reactive somewhat dog-aggressive dog.

[Carrie]

Thanks Kit...I guess I'll have to put off hiking together for a while. The Lab is well behaved and when Lyric was acting like an uncivilized lunatic, she couldn't have cared less. She just looked like....."What gives? You got a problem?" She was very unconcerned and unafraid. LOL. I'll ask my friend to work with me on this.

I thought I had mentioned this, but it must have been on the Doberman board, I'm thinking. Yes, Lyric, as a pup was in a few classes and was liking every dog he met. He was in puppy agility where he was off leash a lot and jumping low jumps, learning all the obstacles and he was very obedient and focused on the job and on me, in spite of all the other dogs running and jumping etc. But few months ago, I'd say he was about 18-20 months old, he started this lunging at the end of the leash when I was walking him past other dogs, also on leashes when visiting in Seattle. He acted awful. I then started working on trying to get his attention on me prior to his acting out. And he did improve. Last visit, he only lunged/barked viciously at one dog out of a whole bunch. Most of them, he managed to keep on walking and just looking. But there aren't a lot of dogs to see around here. But I will work on this with this Lab. There are a few dogs...ones he grew up with that he loves still, even one, my son's whom he doesn't see often at all....always loves to play with her and my niece's dog, a neutered male whom he's known since day one. And of course, my other dogs.

Thanks again for your help and taking so much time to go over that. I kind of suspected that's what I should do...was just looking for a quick fix. LOL. Are there any details that I've left out that would help more?

[Carrie]

Thanks Elegy,

I know you're right....it would be unfair and wouldn't really help solve the problem. And it would make him feel more vulnerable. I'll get one of those books.

Thanks for your input!

[Raised By Wolves]

Hi to Kit, Carrie, and the rest of you dog lovers,

There seems to be a transitional period between the playful romping of young dogs, and the more serious, "Hey, I'm an adult now!" time most dogs enter from 18 months to 3 years of age.

I've seen a lot of behavior problems during this time period. This is the time a lot of dog owners hit a snag, and come to me for help.

Unfortunately, this is the age a dog is likely to be surrendered to a shelter for "behavior" problems.

I get through this time with my own dogs, by imagining them as older, mellow dogs. Closer to me, because we survived this bump in the road, together.

Kind of reminds me of teenagers!

[Carrie]

Lyric would NEVER EVER, NEVER EVER IN A MILLION YEARS, FOR A MILLION DOLLARS, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER BE GIVEN UP TO A SHELTER OR ANYONE ELSE. LOL.

He's my angel and I love him way to stinking much!

And I never have had a problem that I couldn't fix with the many, dogs I've had or worked with for almost 40 years. And if I can't fix this one, then I'll go around it or manage it. I think I can make it better, at any rate.

This dog is so willing to learn and comply, it is unusual. His recall is very good and even when he's in the middle of chasing another animal...deer, squirells, you name it. He slams on his breaks and comes roaring back to me. He doesn't go more than 60 -100 feet ahead of me on our hikes without turning and coming back to make sure I'm coming or that I'm OK. (not having a heart attack or something. LOL) If he's around a corner and can't see me and I call his name, he's hurling himself around that corner to get to me. He's the most affectionate dog I've ever had, the most intelligent, quick to learn and the most devoted, protective dog I've ever had. His main problem is that he's young and very, very distractable still and this dog aggression which just started recently.

So, don't worry about me throwing away my child. That would never happen in my lifetime. LOL.

[Carrie]

I get through this time with my own dogs, by imagining them as older, mellow dogs. Closer to me, because we survived this bump in the road, together.

Kind of reminds me of teenagers!

LOL. I like that! It does remind me of teenagers too. Yes, and the puppy stage with this Doberman was unbelievable. If someone can get through that, they should be able to get through this. He's so good in every other way....such a good boy and responds so very well to positive training methods as opposed to harshness. He is just so dang into learning new stuff. Now, if I can just get him into learning to be civilized....lol....we'll be in business.

[Raised By Wolves]

Of course you wouldn't give up your Lyric!

I puppy-raised a female doberman named Cassie many years ago. She went on to excell in both obedience and protection. She was such a wonderful dog. If she hadn't had such a strong drive to work, and I hadn't had a job that kept me away from home for 14 hours a day, (and a promise to her breeder!), nothing would have let anyone take her from me. Gordon and I always kept in touch after Cass went to work. She lived to be 17 years old!

I'm happy to say that my life is now structured around my own dogs and the dogs I work with. No more 9 to 5 for me! It's taken a long time to do this, and I'm very thrilled to finally be doing what I've always loved!

[Carrie]

No, I didn't really think you meant me. I just had to throw that in anyhow, just in case... as you were talking about this difficult stage and how people get rid of them and I thought it was possible that you thought I might give up on Lyric. LOL. It's hard for me to picture how people have a little trouble and then think it's so abnormal of their dog and then toss them out like an old piece of clothing.

She lived to be 17 years old!

I'm happy to say that my life is now structured around my own dogs and the dogs I work with. No more 9 to 5 for me! It's taken a long time to do this, and I'm very thrilled to finally be doing what I've always loved!

Wow! That IS old for a Doberman. So, you got to know a Doberman too. And that is wonderful that you can do what you always loved and not have to be gone all day. That must be hard for people with young dogs especially....I'm also at home and it is nice for the dogs. They get pretty "spoiled" I suppose.

[Raised By Wolves]

After writing about Cassie yesterday. I tried to think of anything that might be of help to you guys during this time in your lives together. Cassie definately hit a point just before she went back to her breeder, where she was ready to do more than just hanging out with me and learning obedience. She wanted a job! No, I think she actually needed one. Since she got into protection training in her adult life, I think that fulfilled that need in her.

Maybe you could structure a daily activity for you and Lyric, which involved something with a specific purpose. It could be finding a specific object or carrying something in a backpack for you on a long walk, (even carrying a picnic for you to share once you reach your destination). Anything that has some sort of goal at the end of the activity...and , of course, lots of praise for a job well done!

A change of equipment, a slightly more serious attitude, and a phrase like, "It's time to go to work!", will indicate to him it's time to do some grown-up stuff. The change of equipment doesn't have to be drastic, just a different collar and leash will do. Think of it as putting on a uniform or work clothes. It's just a cue for the dog that you're going to do something special.

Well, I hope this helps. Good luck!

[Carrie]

Bless your heart Wolf for brainstorming with me. Oh yes...Lyric definitely loves to have a job and he has quite a structured day, as I'm retired, at home and my dogs are the main focal point of my life. You're right ! He loves to feel like he has something important to do. These dogs thrive off of the idea of working. I try to make his training time fun, but at the same time, he needs to concentrate on what we're doing. Then he gets a break for some romping and then back to "work" again.

Even on our hikes...it's not purely a free for all. We work on his recall along the way, fronts, (trying to get those tidier) heel, sit/stay, leave it, trail. (that means, get back onto the trail, instead of going sideways off too far into the woods.) All the dogs know that one quite well. I practice hiding behind a tree when he's gone up around a corner and can't see me. Then I holler his name as if I'm in distress and he just naturally roars back and finds me. He gets lots of praise and affection and treats.

We took a break from agility and obedience classes where he did well and had a great time. But, we practice those skills at home. We go to different locations on my acreage. Yesterday we went down in the lower pasture where he loves to jump over the creek. I say, "go jump!" And off he goes to the edge of the creek and BIG jump over....over kill, actually. LOL. Then we practiced a long down/stay while I hid behind a tree for 5 minutes. He was perfect. We worked on the watch me command because that's something he really needs work on. Then we walked down the road with the leash and practiced heel and loose leash walking.

I thought about that....getting a little back pack. In fact I have a small saddle bag that has two parts and it fits over the saddle horn...not too big, just enough for a sandwich on one side and a couple of cans of pop on the other....carrots or dog treats. (whatever the case may be.) I might be able to rig something up for him. I am a little worried about taking food out into these woods, as there are bears out there.....and this is the season for babies...dangerous. So, that might have to be done right close to home. But it's a good idea. When I think about it, maybe carrying the dog treats isn't such a great idea either. Those bears have a sense of smell like a dog or better. A-h-h-h.

Anyhow, his entire day isn't structured. He's just now sacked out on the couch, chillin' after eating a full bowl of food. And after his exercise, hike, training time, he's tuckered and will sleep quite a bit in the afternoon. I usually take all the dogs together on our walks, but take Lyric by himself when we're doing a more specific training session.

I am looking into some more classes....called a new trainer yesterday and left a message. I think more obedience and another agility class again would be good. But I have to discuss this dog aggression thing with this trainer. So, hopefully she'll call me back soon. Then I'm also interested in Freestyle dance and possible Schutzhund training....if he has the proper drive. He's not extremely intense....rather a mellow Dobe. He has some drive and exuberance, but I don't know how it should be for Schutzhund.

Thanks for your ideas. If you think of anything else, that would be neat. Yes, perhaps he needs more to do and more of that feeling that he needs to look to me more automatically...That would help with his little problem, I'm sure. He still sucks at giving me his attention when I ask. Sometimes he does and he gets a treat and praise. And sometimes he's positively in La La land. I think I need some better treats. So, I'll be working on some culinary delight today. LOL.

[dollface]

Junior gets dog aggressive towards other dogs, he pulls on the lead barking and whining. Iam not sure if he would actually bite the other dog but not something I want to chance...

I have had Junior in obedience, Novice, agility 1, 2 and koas fun and he did great, some off leash and when he went to another dog I told him to stop and he just looked at the dog, think because he wasn't leashed...

What I did with him I taught him the watch me command and treated, this was to keep all eye's on me. I also found that I would tense up on his leash which would cause unwanted behaviour from him, so I have learned to keep a slack leash and relax.... When people would walk by with their dogs I have put him into either a sit or a down and just stood by him but not to close, I found the down worked the best... I find when he is in a down they don't bark as much and can't jump up as fast as they can in a sit. The down is not where their back legs are crunched behind them but out to the side (I call it all the way) and he lays with his back legs out (hope that made sense).... This way he realizes that nothing bad is going to happen to him and he is safe and I don't have to be standing right beside him but a foot away and all with a slack leash, once they pass I come and praise/treat him and love him up... This is what I was told to practice when I was in obedience class and it has payed off. It does take time but he is getting alot better.... We had our first walk yesterday and able to walk by other dogs with out him freaking out.... Even in dog class I would stand by someone with a dog that he really didn't like and put him in a down and talk to that person, I even had them offer Junior a treat but I never petted their dog or offered treats to them not at first till Junior was comfortable... The whole point was just for him to realize nothing bad was going to happen to him even tho this dog is right there and to build his confidence, I was told they feel alot more vulnerable when they are in a down.....

I would maybe meet with the other dog in a park and maybe have them walk by you a couple times or so and all the while you working with Lyric, in time they move closer and closer as they walk by ect working on having them standing beside you. Don't push it or move to fast or that will just put you back to the beginning. Correct him on his bad behaviour and praise/treat/toy whatever works for the behaviour you want... Don't tell him its ok and all when he is freakin or you are just rewarding his behavior, just give him a correction and give him something else to focus on being a drill of obedience sit, down, up down ect then reward...

I hope some of this maybe of some help and it works for you as it is working for me....Best of luck