Kit, I need your help/advice (or anyone else's really.)

[Ritz459]

Ok, well, Blackie has been doing really, really well with his obedience, he has pretty much got heeling down pat and he finally learned that when I say "side" (You are supposed to say "by heel" but I found "side" to be less confusing) that he is to go to my left side and sit. But, I'm having some trouble "fine tuning" him, and I have no idea how to go about doing it. I'm also having trouble teaching him "stand", so I want your help/advice/opinion on these things. (Watch out...I need help on a lot of stuff. lol )

1. When we are doing our heel, he stays by my side, sometimes looking at me, sometimes looking ahead, but he always stays by my side. When we do the slow and the fast walk, he also adapts to my change of pace really well (doesn't miss a beat), and he always sits (or, mostly always. He has his days when he acts like he forgot everything he knows... ) when we stop.
But I'm having trouble keeping him in a heel posistion when we do our about turns. He'll always keep going strait, then seeing I'm turning, do a wide arch turn, and then get back in heel posistion. And since he has trouble with turns, the figure eight is killing us. lol
How can I get him to know when I'm going to turn so he'll turn with me and not arch out like that?

2. He is also having trouble "sitting strait". When I tell him to sit, he'll sit, but he'll be lopsided, and I know that a dog sitting crooked gets points docked, so I want to know how to fix that. Sometimes he sits in the right posistion, but other times he'll try to sit facing me, or he'll just sit crooked.
How can I get him to sit strait?

3. I'm having trouble getting him to watch me. I'll say his name and he'll look at me, but after about 10-20 seconds of looking at me, he'll realize/think he isn't getting a treat, so he'll look away again. Also, sometimes when I say his name to get him to look at me, he'll break his stay or whatever and come to me, so now I'm scared to say his name when he is in a stay.
How can I get him to look at me "24/7" and to not come when I say his name? (That last part sounds odd....lol)

4. And now last but not least, the stand command. As you know, Blackie is an old dog (10yrs) and would rather sit than stand and would rather lay down than sit. I've taught him that when I'm not moving, he is to remain in the sit position (kinda wish I hadn't taught him that now, lol), so I'm having trouble getting him to stand. He also has a habit that when somebody comes up to "examine him" (like a Vet would, not just a friendly pat on the head) he lays down.
So, how can I teach him to stand and stay standing, even if I'm not moving and even if somebody is petting him?

Thanks in advance.

[GSD]

For straight sits, I walk a straight line, taking one step, sit two steps sit, 5 steps sit depending on the level of the dog and for each straight sit, a treat and praise, then off again. Crooked sit, not treat, ahhh from me and one we go again. mix up the number of steps. doing this along a long wall or fence so he can't swing his butt out to the side might help too, unless he's forging in which you'll have to work on the positioning again.

Instead of using a name, i use "watch" easy enough, If he's 10 and been coming to his name for 10 years, it will probably be easier to change the watch command that it will be to not come when you say his name, and if its a reliable recall why mess with it. And to get him to look at you is a build up like anything else. They aren't going to look for 2 minutes right after they learn it. You have to start to notice when the dog is about to look away and reward. That keeps the dogs interest and will keep is attention. If you notcie your dog always looking away at 15-20 seconds you know that at about 12-14 seconds you're going to have to mark the behavior and reward. Gradually increase the time and always vary times with the watch being held and then rewarded.. If you're going to retrain the watch command, keep the times between rewards very short.

The stand comes after the heeling for me anyway. I walk a straight line and slow down until the dog is motionless mark the behavior and reward. I keep my feet moving so the dog doesn't assume i'm stopping and go to a sit. That's one idea anyway, then as the dog associates standing still with rewards and the command, the distance i move from the dog will increase before the reward is given.

[elegy]

1. turn the top part of your body before you make the actual turn. make it pretty obvious at first so that he catches on, but you'll eventually be able to fade the obvious movement down to just a slight head turn once he gets the idea. obviously, he'll have to be watching you to make it work.

2. this is a great great place for a clicker and a no reward marker. click and treat when he sits straight. when he doesn't, use your nrm (i use "oops!"), reset the exercise (in this case take a few steps forward) and then ask again. this is not a BAD WRONG punishing kind of response, it's a "not what i wanted, try again" response.

3. when you use a watch command, do you ever formally release him from it? if not, you need to start. i'd go back to asking for short durations, and then release him and reward him. start building back up from there and if he's looking away before you release him, you're waiting too long. alternate short and longer times so that he's never sure when the cookie's coming.

4. again, i'd go slow and reward him just for stand/stays with you right next to him. if he's breaking them and laying down, you're going to fast for him. what happens if you stand right next to him for a stand for exam and reward him for not breaking?

my two cents

[flyndog]

Ritz, do you mean a right about turn? It's hard to tell you what you should do when I can't see you! But here are some suggestions in addition to the excellent ones given by GSD. I'm sure there will be even more forthcoming.

Be sure that you keep moving, but don't turn so sharply that your old dog is left out front. Try asking him to heel before you make your turn. Or, you could (subtly) put your left hand behind your back as you start the about turn. That will shorten the lead and get his attention.

Have you been booting your dog in the butt with your right foot to get him to hurry up in the about turns or to straighten his sits? If so, that could be why he swings wide. Try transfering most of your lead to your right hand before the sit. That shortens the lead and you'll get a straighter sit.

Like GSD said, you need to have a specific command to get the dog to look at you. I use the dog's name before I ask for his attention. I use the dog's name every command except Stay and Stand. A rule of thumb is if you want the dog to move, use his name before the command. So stay and stand for exam, no name first.

Kit

P.S. Elegy beat me back to the computer so her post was there before mine. I agree with her suggestion, but I know you are in traditional training class so tried to give suggestions that your own instructor might agree with - minus any jerking or slapping.

[Ritz459]

Yes, I mean a right about turn, and then even when we do the figure eight he keeps going strait when I turn. lol *shakes head*
Here is a visual:
Ok, pretend your computer screen is an above view of us. We would be walking strait up the screen, and then when the trainer says "About turn" I turn right and go down the screen. When I turn right, Blackie keeps going strait, then realizing I'm turning, arch out (he takes a wide turn) and catch up. When we do a left turn he is ok because my body is there stopping him from going strait. It is just the right turns that he has trouble with.

Originally Posted by flyndog

Have you been booting your dog in the butt with your right foot to get him to hurry up in the about turns or to straighten his sits? If so, that could be why he swings wide. Try transfering most of your lead to your right hand before the sit. That shortens the lead and you'll get a straighter sit.

No I don't boot him in the butt! I normally say, "Blackie!" when we turn to get his attention, and kinda "reel him in" and then telling him "heel" again so he'll get back in position. I haven't been correcting him when he does crooked sits either because like Elegy said, that isn't a "No, Bad." but an "Oops!" He's doing what I asked him to do, just not perfectly. When we stop, he'll swing his butt out to the left side a little bit, so he'll be by my side, but crooked.

I know you are in a traditional training class so tried to give suggestions that your own instructer might agree with - minus any jerking or slapping.

Well, just to clear things up, we don't slap the dogs, nor do we jerk them. When you give them a proper correction, the dog shouldn't move. But don't fret about what kind of instructions you're giving me; I take treats to class to reward Blackie with and I don't get yelled at. lol
They pretty much don't care what you are doing to get your dog to do what you want, as long as it doesn't scare/hurt the dog, or is violent. I taught Blackie to heel a different way than what they told us to do (I would hold a treat at my side instead of pulling him back every couple of steps) and they didn't care because Blackie was heeling and I wasn't hurting him.
They let us train the dogs, they just step in whever the dog just isn't getting it or when somebody can't control their dog.
How they told us to get them to stand was hold the Choke Chain so it won't tighten and then put your hand under their belly and make them stand up (because they will be in a sit before you do this).
They were coming around and showing us how to do it individually and when she did it to Blackie, he stood up, but was huntched down like he still wanted to sit. Maybe I could do that but also hold a treat in front of him as a lure to get him to come up all of the way? I'd need three hands, but I'm sure I could find a way to do it...


Anyways, thanks for all of the tips!

[flyndog]

Just to further clear things up, "jerk" means, jerk the leash. A leash correction. Some people say "pop".
Interestingly, both of those words have alternate meanings.

I confess to using the right-foot-behind-the-leg-boot-in-the-butt when needed with my own dogs. I always say "boooot" in a funny voice when I do it so the dog isn't offended, just a little embarrassed. I can't help it. It doesn't hurt and I secretly enjoy doing it. NO! Bad trainer!
It can make a dog swing wide to the left, though. That's why I asked, not because I thought you were slapping or kicking your dog.
Slapping a dog on the outside flank to correct a crooked sit is not all that unusual in traditional OB training. Glad to hear your class is flexible about how you train.

[Ritz459]

Well, I kinda taught Blackie how to stand yesterday. lol It will probably take a while for him to get it, but he'll get it. Once he was standing though, if I didn't say "stay" right away, he'd sit down. But when I told him to say, I'd take a step away from him, then walk around him and go back to heel posistion and he stayed standing. So hopefully we'll get that up to stratch.

[poodlesmom]

When you are heeling and slowly coming to a stop are you looking down at Blackie to make sure he is going to sit? If you are sometimes this will cause the dogs to sit crooked as they are trying to look up to see your eyes and it can cause them to slightly turn and/or go a little ahead of you and end up crooked. Try doing it keeping your eyes straight ahead and running your left hand down low on the leash to keep him right at your side.

On the figure 8's try it a few times talking to him, encouraging him & telling him he is a good boy all the way through. Start out by going to the left and as you come around the first turn, halfway thru the straight way really talk it up to him, telling him good boy, hurry up. This will help keep his attention on where you are.

Another exercise you can do to get him used to keeping an eye on you and where you are going is do some regular heeling and take a large step to the right and continue on. During a forward heel take 3 steps back telling him to heel and then continue forward in the original direction. Make lots of turns, right & left, small circles to the left and to the right. You can heel around and kind of weave into the center and weave back out to the perimeter. All of these little exercises help teach the dog that he needs to keep an eye on you because he never knows where you are going to head to next.

On the stand if you find he is sitting when someone else comes up to examine him try it a few times staying at his side with your hand lightly held at the top of his back "armpit" (can't think of the right word) and at the first sign that he is trying to sit give slight pressure and repeat the "stand" command. You can also loosely drape his leash under him and hold him up in the stand repeating the stand command if you feel pressure of him trying to sit. Your trainer has probably told you also that on the return when the exercise is over always release him from the stand by heeling forward.

[D.Schäferhund]

hi you got lots of help allready
Here's how i do it.

Turns: try to get his attention, he obviously does not have the conzentration to look at you all the times, make high pitch noises to get him to attention and then turn, you may even clap your hands, you know best what he reacts too...
Figure eight, try to do the turns seperat, first right then left or vice versa, i usually start with left, takes mor conzentration of the dog, and keep going circles till he is slightly behind you and pays attention, never forget to prais when he is in the position you want and then get out of the turn, play do something he likes. the right turns are like the turns described.

2. sit straight: it may help when you practice sits on a wall or anything that is fliped over (e.g table),always praise, when it is right, if not ignore and do it again

Watch: like most of them recommended use a different kommand, and build up, i do not know waht you use for treat, but a toy and a play might be more worth then meat. try to increase the speed you are walking if you are not"marching" allready, watch you bodylanguage, are you walking proud or are you bending over to see what you dog does, if you do not know, ask someone to watch you...

stand: like GSD described it or try to do it in other occations, like get him from sit to stand with lightly touching the belly to get him in a stand, some tie the dogs and get them from a sit into a stand andprais them(the tieing is to prevent the dog comes to you)
lots of good tipps allready so i can't put much to it...
LG Kat

[D.Schäferhund]

Well i forgot to ask:
does your trainer give the command in andvance , before you actually have to do it? so you have time ti get prepared?
We give the comand first , then count loud 21,22 and at 23 (not said loud) we execute the command. each said in a seconds distance, that gives you a fair chance to get preped
LG Kat

[Ritz459]

Well, here is an update:
Strait sits- Blackie is doing better. He has his moments, but for the most part he is doing a really good job.

Stands- I think he is finally getting the command "stand". I normally get him to stand with a lure (hoping to fade that out soon) and then I"ll put my hand/arm under his belly to keep him standing. The trainer said we can physically place the dogs if need be, so that is ok. (The people with little dogs have it lucky...they can just pick the dog up and then put it down in a standing posistion! lol ) Once I get him up, I tell him stay, and he'll stay. We did that at our lesson and the trainer came up and was "examining" him and he stayed standing the whole time. I was so proud of him.

Figure eights- not much better, but then I've been working on his stands and stuff more than the figure eights. He has gotten better with heels and about turns (I use the command "turn!" when I turn around so he knows what is going on...I'm hoping to faze out of that though.

Watch me - Isn't the best, but it isn't the worst either. I haven't really been focusing on this either a whole bunch, because when his attention does wander, if I move a little bit or clear my throat or something he'll look at me again. I'm more concerned about his figure eight than with this so....

I'm going to start taking Blackie (and probably Rose too so she doesn't get lonsome. lol) to my brother's baseball games so he'll learn to pay attention to me and listen to me even with a lot of distractions and strange smells and noises and stuff. So thanks for the advice!