My dog seesm to loathe me

[OldNick]

I have a complex one. I am feeling very sad.

Staffy/BCollie cross, by official word. Now 4.5 years. We have had her for over two of those, now. History before that largely unknown.

She is my 7th dog during my life. I am 50, and sometimes have had 2 at once.I had one previous "failure" that kept escaping while I was at work, until I simply did not bring him back. Otherwise a lovely dog.

This one is increasingly showing signs of passive/aggressive behaviour, and basically loathing me. There is no _sign_ of outright aggression. But we have days on end where she will refuse to eat food when I lay it out, lie there watching me balefully, refuse to enjoy my patting her (displaying this by cowering away from my touch, eyes squinted, tail between her legs.), not want to go for her favourite walks etc.

Just this morning we went for a walk, which she did happily. It was a wonderful walk and we both enjoyed it. I know a happy dog when I see one. It was raining. When we got back I grabbed her towel to dry her. This is an occasion for much joy, and she will stare at me as if I were God's Gift. But today...cringe....piddle. I left her outside. I tried again. Cringe. I left her. I went out with cheese bits (a favourite) this worked a bit. I was "allowed" to pat her. but aftger the third piece of cheese, she simply would not take it. This has happened on other attempts to use food as a bribe. She will often take the food, sit there with it hanging out of her nouth, then spit it out. Even when she is hungry, if I refuse to feed her except at a "price" or she won't eat.

When we got her she was a mess. We did a lot for her. But now it almost seems as if she wants to have a problem somewhere, and I am it.

We rescued her from the dog refuge. She was described as energetic, not recommended for small children, good in cars, tends to show submissive behaviour to humans, sometimes shows dominant behaviour to other dogs.

Ok. We checked her out at the place, which had a park to walk dogs etc. Of the ones we checked out, she was the one that attracted us most. She was a bit "flighty", jumping at sounds, and such. We put this down to gaol fever, which is quite understandable. She was very lively, but obedient and controllable. A nice fun dog.

We put her in the car, and she started to dribble...._really_ dribble. She was a _mess_ in the car. Not good. We went ot my father's place, which was closer than ours. When we tried to get her in tot house she cowered and cringed. She ran away from the light fitting on the ceiling.

Ooookaaay...we have a problem.

Oh yes. I forgot to mention that she had been taken home by another family who brought her back two days later because of her behaviour....cringeing and cowering away from everything, and hiding in corners.

I brought her home. She behaved most peculiarly about coming into the house. In the end I started to feel a bit frustrated and had to have a pee, anyway. Before any of my irritation or discomfort showed, I left the door open and went to have a pee.

She ran away. We have 150 acres of bush on our property. I could not get her back or find her. We had retained her name, but calling did not help.

Some hours later she returned.

That night I sat up with her until 3am, as she was such a mess. We realised we had a project.

Since then we have done enormous amounts of work with her, and mostly she has repaid this with enormous amounts of pleasure, amusement and love.

She is extremely intelligent. She is by far the most proactive and bright dog I have ever owned. She is also _extremely_ athletic and agile.

We have all this area. So we go for long walks , where she is allowed to go pretty much where she pleases, let off steam. We call her back and "touch base" every now and again. There is no problem with obedience or straying.

She is at all times a very obedient dog. I have very rarely raised my voice to her. She does not need it, and I have had practice with dogs. I have been very angry with her for this behaviour. I know that tactically I should not. But in the end I crack on some occasions.

She has had two dogfights in town parks. She started neither, and was cowardly attacked and bitten deeply in one of them. This has not made her aggressive. She does display dominant behaviour to dogs, and plays rough. We control this with "gentle" and "enough". Never a problem.

So even when she is cowering at the very thought of my touching her, she will always do as she is told, like sit etc.

I try ignoring her. Sometimes she will "pretend" to approach me, then turn away as if rebuffed. Sometimes she will come to me, but if I show any signs of response, she cringes again.

I cannot see a pattern for this behaviour. We at first thought it was empathy for me, if I was frustrated or angry, and there is some of that. But it's simply getting worse, until I can be completely happy, and have my day ruined by her.

I feel as her behaviour, by withdrawing any pleasure, is punishing me, but I do not knwo what for.

[Crossfire Bulldogs]

Hello and welcome to GP

There are several trainers here on our forum that I'm sure can help you better than I but there were a few things that I noticed in your post that I have questions on.

It sounds like she came to you physically abused and with no much spirit left if any at all. Many dogs after going through abuse have a difficult time adjusting ( if they ever do ) and do not do well at all with someone raising their voice to them. It brings back, at least in my opinion, many memories of past abusive behavior and pain.

You mentioned her cowering away from your touch, cringing and her tail between her legs....all signs of a dog who is fearful and untrusting. You also stated the following:

She is at all times a very obedient dog. I have very rarely raised my voice to her. She does not need it, and I have had practice with dogs. I have been very angry with her for this behaviour. I know that tactically I should not. But in the end I crack on some occasions.

What do you mean by "crack?" Raising your voice to her, becoming physical with her by handling her in such a way as to make her do what it is your asking of her or reprimanding her by physically hitting or pushing her? Please do not assume that I'm in any way hinting that you've beaten this dog but it is a question that needs to be asked and many people do use certain types of physical training methods rather than 100% positive enforcement.

Three things came to mind when reading through your post, one being that she has a severe lack of trust, two that she seems to be showing the typical signs of a frightened dog who fears being hit and three that there may be be an undiagnosed medical issue here coupled with her trust issues if you haven't been physical with her. These things are all just my own opinion on the dog from what you've posted but without being there or without the help of a certified trainer I can only go by what I read and know.

I'm sure there are other members that would be more than happy to make suggestions that are more qualified to do so and will be along shortly.

[mulroony]

My pup Shebly comes from a bit of the same background, and had some of the same problems, but not quite like what you are experiencing. I know the first time I went to give he a little smack on the nose for nipping at me, she went right back to where we started and it took her a while to learn that the little smacks on the nose just mean stop nipping and not that I am going to beat her. I once accidently raised a newspaper up, which she thought I was going to hit her with (I was just talking and did not realize what I was doing with my hands), and she went and cowered for some time. I think the best advice I can give is to not start returning any of her negative "energy." Dogs feed off our emotions and actions and you being upset with her will only make things worse.

A dog that was a victim of abuse needs to know its owners will love it no matter what behavior they are displaying. If you have a hard time getting her in the house, I used to leave a trail of treats and stand back at some distance so she could enter on her own. This almost always worked, and it helped if right after she came in I went and gave her tons of positive reinforcement. I found finding a particualr activity that only you can give them really helps. I would guess your dog would really like fetch or swimming.

I find the method that is working best with Shelby is always having her at my side from the time I get home from work till the time I leave for work the next day. Her behavior as increased greatly, and because she knows I expect her at my side she has learned the proper dominance chain.

Hope this helps some.

[OldNick]

>>>Dogs feed off our emotions and actions and you being upset with her will only make things worse.<<

Thanks for the reply. I agree with what you say, but I have tried all sorts of responses.

Another long response. This is a complex and most terrible issue for me.

Funny thing is, she responds to mild taps on the nose and a "no" with almost complete uncaring. No negative reaction at all. Almost thinks it's a game! She looks a bit quiet for a second or two then waits for me to ease up so she can run around again.....but she heard, and will very rarely repeat the behaviour.

She is the best-behaved, fastest-learning dog I have ever had, except when it comes to these moods. Even when in the very pits, she will do everything she is told like sit, come, lie down etc. She just will not be happy about having anything to do with me that is nice for us.

Walks, nornally such fun turn into a mockery if she so chooses. We walk, and she either runs about in a way that is plainly "pretend", empty capering, or follows along behind me at about 10 yards, looking miserable. Sometimes, she will simply sit down and make me call her before she comes again. I have walked all the way home ignoring this, and she has simply sat there.

It's really terrible, because she seems to be doing things to placate me, or please me, or cower away from me, as dogs will when you have punished them somtimes. But I have done nothing. I cannot see the trigger.

I know anger is the worst. Mostlly I try to ignore it, and act as if nothing is happening, but of course she knows I am not happy. I have tried cajolling her out of it, but she either simply does not want to, or hears the falseness in my voice, or, I am beginning to fear, _ actually feeds on the attention she is getting_.

I have also tried actually lying down and cuddling and patting her. This has worked sometimes, for a while, until the next episode....which could be 5 minutes away. Again I am scared that she will simply take that attention and start sulking for more.

I am not sure if we are partly to blame. We gave her everything she wanted because we felt so sorry for her when we got her. In return we saw a wreck turn into a mostly happy, energetic, very clever dog. Until this started to get worse. It's always been there a bit, but the other bizarre behaviour was so bad we took it as part of the package.

Maybe we are starting to back off a bit, because we do have our own lives <G>. Also if my wife and I argue, either about "stuff" or even about politics etc, she will start capering and placating. This is not screaming matches I am talking here. This is simply argy bargy or earnest discussion.

I have to make noise when I work. I seem to get "blamed" for this as well. Often when I come in, she will not even bother to greet me. Or she will come to greet me then cringe again when I try to respond.

shrug.

I am wondering if this is _not_ a fear thing (she has had very little to fear from me, seriously). I wonder if she wants to "do something else", or get more attention, and cringeing is her way of showing displeasure or "dumb submission".

This is how complex it is. When she is in one of these "moods", I have been told that playing with her and building up her confidence will help. Play tug o war etc. She refuses. She will take the other end of a piece of cloth, and just stand there. Playing with the hose jet is another one. Loves it....until she is in a mood. Then she sort of lollops about as much trying to dodge the hose water as trying to chase it.

She again "obeys" but takes all of the fun out of it.

Basically she is withdrawing joy.

[Cassiepeia]

You said you kept her name? I'm no trainer but I know that many people will use the dogs name when angry with them. Perhaps the previous (abusive) owners did this and calling her by the same name could be something else that reminds her of her past.
It's a little thing and won't solve all your problems, but I thought I'd mention it.

Dogs adjust really well to name changes.

Cass.

[flyndog]

Frankly, I'm confused. If the dog is so obedient, I don't understand why you are so angry with her! You've had this dog for 2 years. If I understand you correctly, things were fine after the initial problems. Then, the dog started "loathing" you. When did things go from being fine to being so complex? You will both feel a lot better if you can stop trying to anthropomorphize this dog's behavior. The dog is not *trying* to punish you, look for a problem, make you feel unhappy, make you angry, hate you, remove joy from your life,

"run about in a way that is clearly pretend, with empty capering"

, or all the other reasons you have assigned. I understand that you can't see a reason for your dog's behavior (cringing, avoidance), but I'll bet your body language says a lot. This sounds like a very unhappy, confused, and depressed dog. I suggest you find a positive, motivational trainer or behaviorist in your area to help you reestablish communication and repair the relationship with your dog. It sounds like you are allowing some very small things to be blown our of proportion. I have a lot of questions.
Kit

[OldNick]

You see no problem?

The dog turns pleasurable interaction off and on for no apparent reason, even though she is still obedient. She will obey without resentment, apparently. But she does not want to be patted or approached. She approaches me, but if I so much as show any response, she cowers or squints.

We took a gibbering wreck and made it into a mostly happy dog. We seem to have got an awful lot right.

She now travels in the car mostly OK. She deals with people without fear. She walks into houses without cowering. etc etc

But every now and then, with NO negative action from me, and certainly none toward the dog, she turns into a cringeing, rejecting dog. I may grumble about a TV show, or at the computer. I may make noise working. If I can't do this without the dog collapsing then it's not all my fault.

Suddenly a toweldown after a wonderful walk will be a cringe and piddle session. Like within 10 seconds. The dog wants to go inside. I need to towel her down. This started with her, not me. I love towelling her down. I have found with every dog, including often this one, that it's a great way to bond. try having a dog that reckons going inside is worth piddling for...sometimes.

Remember, we got a dog that two other families had given up on and who had been in "gaol" fro many months. She _still_ reverts sometimes. She will get frightened if I start frying food and there is a fan or aircondtioner on. She suddenly starts staring at the car roof, or looking with apprehension at the roof light in the car. This has nothing to do with my body language. I just feel that whatever stress she feels about life is sometimes directed toward me.

I am not "anthropomorphising". Dogs have cringeing behaviour as a token of submission. But often it involves a way to cover other feelings, up to and including unwarranted aggression or fear.

If you cannot see a problem, than obviously we differ. You appear to think that as long as a dog behaves to order, nothing is wrong!?

I am upset about this. I do not need exclamatory judgment. When I see that I will simply back off, thanks very much. It can go in only one direction.

[OldNick]

BTW. If you read my messages, you would see I get angry _sometimes_. Mostly I am upset and puzzled.

[Angelina2005]

I have been training dogs from all kinds of backgrounds since I was four years old. I have had many experiences of this kind. The dog is quiet obedient, which I knew when I saw he had BCollie in him. Very intelligent dogs.

The best way to handle the timid behaviour is to baby him. It will be very tough, as most dogs can take discipline, however in a situation like this where the background is not completely known. When he does something wrong instead of raising your voice, use a quiet stern voice with "no". Don't use the dogs name, that way he will associate his name with positive words. Place him in a crate for a set amount of time, usually an hour or so. That way the dog realizes he made a mistake without horrid flashbacks.

Also you should never hit a dog. If he goes to snap at you, gently place your hand around his muzzle and say "no" Whether the dog takes the hitting instride it should never be done. You don't know if that dog was hit or just hollered at as a pup.

As time goes on the dog will settle in, definitely continue taking him for walks, socialization and the knowledge that people care will help improve him. No matter the age the dog can change. With TLC on our part, I know the babying thing maybe hard, I had to baby a Great Dane, and the Dane still requires babying today. If you holler at him once, he will never adjust to you. So treat the dog like a baby, and he should settle in.

Best of luck, hopefully I have been some help.

[Carrie]

Well, it does seem that this dog must have had an abusive and or neglected past. I would advise NO sterness what so ever. I wouldn't say, "NO" to this dog or any other word that she seems to be associating with some past punishment, including possibly her name. If you're not liking something she's doing, gently remove her from the situation and then tell her "gooood dog" when she's out of the situation, ie: like if she steps in your flower garden. I would not tell this dog "no" or "tap" it on the nose or hover over her. Don't bend over her....that sort of thing. You can use treats and quietly coax her over to visit with you and have a treat. I wouldn't push it if she's not comfortable with it. Walks around the yard or where ever it's not too "scary" or overwhelming should be fun, with treats and a cheery voice. Some dogs are just very submissive and you have to tread lightly, but I wouldn't completely baby her or make a fuss when she's acting particularily submissive. She may be getting into a "learned helplessness." That's something that becomes habit if she's fussed over when she's exhibiting that cringing behavior. So, I'd say.....ignore her when she's piddling or cowering. Let her get through that episode on her own. When she's semi-OK, then give her some gentle attention or words.

All in all, if you do need to tell her something that she's doing that you don't like, instead of telling her "no," distract her, show her something else, ask for something else, and reward for the replacement behavior. Use only motivation and reward. Keep your voice and hands quiet, like when I'd work with a nervous horse.

If you're consistant in your gentle ways, not too obtrusive when she needs her "space," but there when she looks like she'd like a friend, she should come around to trusting and loving you later on. Use an attitude like it's not big deal, happy go lucky, nothing to worry about. Don't make a fuss over her when she's cowering. Use a light, happy, lilting voice with her only. Never be stern. Show her what you DO want instead of what you don't. Go on walks if she can get to enjoy them....start short and in familiar territory...her yard.

That's all I think of for now. It will be gradual process to get this dog to trust you, but once she does, she'll be velcroed to you. You could also seek some advise from a reputable, certified behaviorist to come an observe her at home. It's hard over the Internet to know or see exactly what you mean. I wish you and your furpal the best.

[flyndog]

Oldnick, if you are addressing me, I certainly did not say I did not see a problem. I see a huge problem and that is why I suggested you contact a trainer or behaviorist. Good luck.

[OldNick]

OK. I reacted angrily.

I was told that the dog was reacting to my negative vibes. I was asked why I was angry. I was told not to anthropomorphise. Sounds like all of this is my doing, what?

As I said, exclamatory judgment was not what I needed. I thought I had put a better case than that. For a start, I have had 7 dogs, all but onje of which were quite OK. In fact I am nore mature and experienced with dogginess with this dog than ever. But something is wrong.

I need techniques. _I_ could have worked out that a dog handler might help. I have spoken to people that had experiences where a dog handler did NOT help. OK. Wrog person. But I just thought I might try here first.....

I am not sure that fear is the motive here. Grovelling does not always signify fear.

I have had advice that dogs that "submit" can often be simply sulking, or showing their disapproval of a situation. Itr's not anthropomorphising. It's just

not as simple as a beaten down dog.

Dog wants to go indoors? A normally wonderful rubdown becomes a piddle session. Dog wants to get on the bed? If not allowed (not arbitrarliy, but

because I have to work outside, and the dog has not been out for 4 hours anyway) _anything_ else becomes a miserable, sulky, resentful session. This

did not start with me. It is not exclusively human. It's simply manipulative.

Let's say she is NOT punishing me. How about, on the common parlance, she wants to please me, but what she has to do to please me is contrary to

what she wants to do? So she sulks, while submitting to the minimum of what she has been trained for.

When the situation is "normal" I can lean over the dog, pat her, grab her, play with her, get her to play, speak angrily to her (and I repeat this has been

VERY rare and VERY mild. I have been a lot rougher on other dogs, and have had dogs who were a LOT more disobedient. ) and none of the above

produces a bad result. I do all of the "bad" things that causes submission and there is no effect! In fact it's genuinely enjoyed by both sides!

However.....suddenly...

This evening my wife went out to dinner. Even my wife, not a dog person, noticed that the dog was watching her and knew something was up, while my

wife was getting ready..... perfume, special clothes etc. Dogs pick these things.

I was watching TV, and patting and foindling ghe dog. We had had a wondferful day, all of us. Suddenly the dog got up, walked away from me and tried

to get on m,y wife's chair. This is not allowed. She has tried this maybe twice. We have not screamed at her for it. We just said "no" in the advised

normal, even voice. Serious. No problem. Never happens. Dog rarely walks away form a good pat either.

I simply said "no mate" and it was over. But it was most unusual. No problem. But wait.

When my wife left, the dog walked away. Normally, she will be with us. On a work day she will be with us, and see my wife off, and come with me

happily (until later when I do "something wrong").

She did eat her dinner. No apparent problem. Still no negative vibes from me.

Let me say this. If I had noticed the two pieces of aberrant (and they were) behaviour by the dog, neither of which were caused by my negative vibes, but

by circumstance, and my behaviour was from then on cautious or negative enough to cause the rest of the problem....then I am beat. It gets like running

or walking to stay dry in the rain.

To this evening.

When things are "right" she will come out with me if I maybe hang the washing, or fetch water (we are semi-camped) and this evening I was cooking

tuna and wanted a lime from our tree. I went out to get the lime and got a baleful glare from the dog. I said "Come on matey" and she came out

semi-willingly. I cajoled her and she ran about and appeared hapy. I got the lime, and came back in, with her accompanying me. She shot inside and

went to her bed.

She had already had tea, and also a nice marrow bone. But she _never_ refuses_ food...except....she would not take any interest in my eating tea, as

she usually would. She always gets some of our meal, and really enjoys, expects and demands this. All of my dogs have, as did those of my family. I gave her some tuna in her bowl and she refused. I tried offering it to her (sometimes she will eat more happily nif the servants offer it up). Glare. Sulk.

After a few minutes I threw out the bit of tuna. No anger. No shouting. Removal. I am by now not happy. But the negative vibes from me started right there.

When I went to the bedroom, which has my PC in it, she tried to follow me. She wanted nothing to do with me, but wanted to get on the bed, as she is normally allowed to do.

Now here I "got it wrong". I said "go away".

I have tried NOT "getting it wrong" All that happens is that in end I _have_ get her off the bed, and then I "get it worng"...get it?

I have tried cossetting and cuddling her when these sessions start. It has worked a couple of times, but usually results in piddling. The times it has worked do not seem to have alleviated the situation.

The simplest and most obvious thing so far.

There seems to be a correlation between my wife's not being here and this behaviour. This has to happen. I don't sit around and mourn my wife's absence.

But I do have to pay for it.

Bear in mind that I feed the dog and by far make the most fuss of her. Often, my wife's absence does not cause trouble. But unusual absences do (her work makes this not an option), and sometimes "normal" ones do. It is unpredicatable, but frequent enough to be a PITA.

AFAICS, unless my wife ignores the dog, and I make the dog MINE, the dog resents my wife's absence, and I pay.

[Raised By Wolves]

I have to agree with you needing a trainer to work with you. I would also recommend getting a book which will help you understand some basic principles of canine body language. I'm sure if one of our trainers in this forum reads this, they may be able to give you a recommendation on an up-to-date book which could be helpful.

Sometimes what looks like "loathing", is a dog displaying extreme submissive signals to keep themself from being harmed. I can't say more about this, unless I observed how you and your dog are interacting during these momments.

Please, don't take your dog's behavior "personally". My rescue dog will still occasionally be "triggered" by something and act like she's having some sort of "flashback" from a bad experience in her past. I know it's not about me, but I'm here for her, and she seems to know she is safe with me. She will sometimes have a cringing or even shaking momment, and then look at me and wag her tail as if to say,"Heck, I don't know why I'm doing this!". It's strange to see her so happy, and then have this come out of nowhere! I know I didn't cause this, but it's now my responsibility to make sure she knows she is safe in my presence, no matter what.

I hope things get better for both you and your dog.

[doberkim]

yes, i agree - stop anthropromorphizing her.

she sounds terrified of something - if she was so abused and neglected and has come so far, then there are some things you probably may NEVEr overcome, and when they strike her, you may not be able to help it. it may never be ok, and it has nothign to do with you. she isnt doing this to punish you.

if she doesnt like towel drying sessions, then dont do them. they may have been something your last dog liked, but she clearly doesnt, so dont be angry or upset with her if she doesnt.