Question about when Blackie listens...

[Ritz459]

Ok, well, I've come to discover that when I tell Blackie to do something (sit, lay down, touch [he targest my hand], etc.) he will take his grand ol' time doing them when he isn't hyped up about something.
But when we are walking by another dog, or when he wants to go chase a rabbit or a mouse and he is on leash and I tell him to do soemthing, he does it ASAP.
I just don't get it. Cause you'd think that he'd listen less when he wants to go after something.
Like yesterday for example. I was walking the dogs and somebody was biking with their Lab/Chow mix. Now, this mix is the dog that hates Rose and Rose hates her, so I wasn't sure how they'd act together, since I've never incountered this dog out with her owner before. So I pulled both of the dogs over to the side of the road and I told them to sit. Blackie sit as soon as I asked him, and then Rose, of course, didn't do anything. (BTW, the dogs didn't do anything, and Sweetie [the mix] ran right past us without a problem.)
And then when Blackie wanted to dig for a mouse in the field, he started pulling really really hard on the leash. So I told him to sit, which he did without delay, and then I told him to laydown. He did, after a split second hesitation.
He'll also listen to me perfectly when we are being barked at by neighbors' dogs.
But lets just say I was walking the dogs and I just wanted Blackie to sit because we stopped or something. He'd normally just look at me, and then after I tell him a couple of times (or re-enforce him), he'd finally slowly sit.
The same thing kinda applies when we are in other lax situations, but then when we are in "active" situations, he listens perfectly.
I still tell him in the same tone of voice and I still use the same hand motions and stuff and I train him in a lax enviroment. So why does he not listen as well when we are in a lax enviroment?

(Rose is just the oppisite. She'll listen to me when we are in a lax enviroment, but if you ad a distraction...she becomes deaf dog.)

[Carrie]

I'm not sure, but Blackie may have a really good sense of "working" mode and non-working mode. Maybe when things are serious, Blackie decides he better get serious too and listen.

Lyric is better when we're specifically "working" than not. He still obeys at other times, but is a little slower and not quite as attentive as when he's been doing some specific skills, as in a training session or at school. Most times when we're out on a walk, if he sees something interesting and starts to run toward it, he listens well when I call him back...like when he chases deer or something. (exception was the other night when he ran a bear off of my property) He wasn't about to listen to me. He was dead set on getting rid of that bear.

I think all it takes is some extra, beefing up with the motivation and reward at random times...just as if we're in the midst of a "working" session. Or in Blackie's case....at those times when he isn't apt to listen too well. I find that it's probably my fault when Lyric is lax because I'm not as conscious of his perfection on things when I'm not thinking about it so much... as when I'm thinking about it when really working at something.

It's like they start to think they have a job but when they're taking a coffee break, they don't really have to do anything. I mean, heck....it's a break. They think they've clocked out. LOL.

[rutylr]

sure sounds like the Rottweiler side of Blackie.I only have to listen when you can touch me.
The targeting the hand thing is something I hate.I now train all my dogs with treats from my mouth.That way they are always looking at you since they never know when a hot dog will come out.It is a much better way to train then giving treats from the hand.You get faster sits and better fronts this way.
Donna

[Ritz459]

Well, I'm glad to hear it is the "Rottie" side of him and that I don't have a weird dog. lol Now that I think about it, the working side of him coming out does make sense. (I tell ya, it is very weird to have a "working" dog and a dog that acts like a sighthound in the same house...almost totally opposite of each other.)

Rutylr - I use the hand targeting thing as a alternative to "come". Like, if telling him to come doesn't work, I have a backup. lol It also makes Blackie think if I move my hand where it is hard for him to touch it, but he still has to get to it and "target" it.

Ya, with Blackie, I sometimes carry some treats with me so when we are in a "lax" mode and he obeys right on the spot, he gets a treat, but then he knows I have treats, so he is no longer in "lax" mode. lol I do the "random reward" thing (different amount of treats, different type of praise, etc.) so he doesn't get a treat all of the time, but that just makes him think, "If I do one more thing, maybe I'll get a treat!"
So I find it hard to get him more pumped up about "lax" time, since when I treat him, he moves to "working mode".

But, to tell you the truth, I'd rather have a dog that listens to me when we are in an "active" mode, and then doesn't listen to me as well when we are in a "lax" mode, than a dog that will listen to me when things are quiet, but is a pain in the butt when it comes to situations where I really need them to listen. *coughs*Rose!*coughs*

[Carrie]

One way to get more consistant behavior is to give a treat, a really good reward every single time he obeys a command until it gets to be an extreme habit to obey you then he is more apt to become more reliable on that command.

[flyndog]

Originally Posted by Ritz459

I do the "random reward" thing (different amount of treats, different type of praise, etc.) so he doesn't get a treat all of the time, but that just makes him think, "If I do one more thing, maybe I'll get a treat!"

What do you mean by "different type of praise, etc."?

When you put the dog on a schedule of variable or random reinforcement, you vary the primary reinforcer. If you are using praise (instead of food) as a primary reinforcer, then you would vary that. I think that randomly giving a treat and randomly praising can melt your dog's brain.

After a dog can associate a behavior with a reward, but before I put him any schedule of random reinforcement, I reinforce every time, but instead of the usual favorite treat, I use a treat mixture. So sometimes he gets a bit of liver, sometimes it's a wienie, sometime it's cheerio or a piece of kibble. He never knows. It's kind of random reinforcement, but not technically.

To fine tune a response, I use what's called "differential reinforcement of excellent behavior". The dog gets a piece of liver only for examples of the best behavior that I am looking for. If the criteria is a quick response, only the quickest responses are reinforced. When I consistently get the quickest response, then I work on getting the "prettiest" response (the straightest sit, for example).

WHAT SCHEDULES TO USE WHEN:

Teaching new behaviors - Continuous reinforcement

Once dog has learned association between response and reward – intermittent (variable or random reinforcement)

Responses that can vary is quality – reinformcement for excellence

Eliminating certain problem behaviors – reinforcement of other behavior or behavior incompatible with problem behavior

(Classical conditioning – always continous reinforcement)

How boring is that?!

Kit

[Ritz459]

I have no idea what I mean when I say, "different types of praise"...probably a typo. lol I think what I ment was sometimes it is a belly rub (with "baby" talk), other times it is a ear scratch (with "baby" talk), other times it is me being all excited and hopping around and telling him what a good boy he is (because when I act "happy", he'll look at me and wag his tail. lol), etc., etc.
I think the reason I switch between praise and food, is for two reasons. One, is that I'm not always carrying food around, and two, I don't want him to think that every single time he does something, he gets a treat, because what happens when I'm in a situation that I can't give him a treat?

When I'm teaching a command, I always give a treat (or tons of treats), along with acting happy/excited/crazy. That works very well, because when I was teaching Blackie to roll over I did that, and so now when he thinks that when I tell him lay down and he wants extra treats, he can roll over too.
But I also did that with his "by-heel" command, because he was having troubles learning that, and now one of his most favorite things to do is his "by-heel"! lol

[flyndog]

Originally Posted by Ritz459

...But when we are walking by another dog, or when he wants to go chase a rabbit or a mouse and he is on leash and I tell him to do soemthing, he does it ASAP. I just don't get it. Cause you'd think that he'd listen less when he wants to go after something.

How is he rewarded for that? Does he get to chase the mouse or visit the dog? If so, that is a valuable life reward and great reinforcement.

Originally Posted by Ritz459

...But lets just say I was walking the dogs and I just wanted Blackie to sit because we stopped or something. He'd normally just look at me, and then after I tell him a couple of times (or re-enforce him), he'd finally slowly sit.

What are you reinforcing here? It sounds like you are reinforcing a slow response.

Originally Posted by Ritz459

...So why does he not listen as well when we are in a lax enviroment?...

Because he is being highly reinforced for the behavior in a distractive environment and reinforced for slow behavior in a less distractive situation?

[Ritz459]

How is he rewarded for that? Does he get to chase the mouse or visit the dog? If so, that is a valuable life reward and great reinforcement.

With the dog thing...heck no. Blackie doesn't like to vist with doggies. lol And I'll only occasionally let him chase a mouse. We normally just walk away from the situation, while being praised to high heaven or being treated.

What are you reinforcing here? It sounds like you are reinforcing a slow response.

I normally make him sit when we wants to go over to the side of the road to sniff or go to the bathroom, because he has a problem of just going over whenever he feels like it, and I want to teach him that when I tell him he can "go over" that is when he goes over. When he does a slow sit, I'll normally take another step and make him sit again, and then when he sits when I tell him to, that is when he can go over. (And he has gotten much better about doing that too.)

Because he is being highly reinforced for the behavior in a distractive environment and reinforced for slow behavior in a less distractive situation?

Actually, I normally reward them about the same. I think maybe my problem is I reward him more for paying attention to me in a distracing enviroment than in a lax enviroment. I mean, if we were walking by other dogs or by a mouse or whatever, I wouldn't want him to stop and sniff, or do something other than keep walking. I'm trying to get that mentality in him when we are just on a walk or whatever, but I don't think it is really sinking in as much as I want it to, because when my mom walks him, she lets him sniff or go over to pee anytime he wants.

(And this has nothing to do with the subject, but I think it is so cute because when Blackie thinks he is doing soemthing I like, he'll look up at me and grin while wagging his tail. And of course, she he does that, I praise him. Like when we were walking by this Cocker Spaniel that was barking at us. Blackie looked at him, then looked away really quick and kept walking without paying attention to the Cocker. And then after about 2 seconds of doing that, he looked up at me and grinned. It was so cute. )