SHOWING FIXED Dogs, Why Not?

[Crossfire Bulldogs]

I don't think that showing s/n pets would have any ill affect on any breed in the same way a movie does. I think not only would it promote spaying and neutering but that people can still show there dogs less a part without adding more pups to the world. And Crossfire, isn't showing dogs one big beauty contest whether they are fixed or not? LOL! I'm not trying to cause trouble in saying this, just being funny. LOL! *wink*

I don't think showing s/n pets would have an ill effect either, as long as it was handled in the same way as I mentioned originally like what we do here once yearly.

A beauty contest in a sense yes. lol They are all beautiful dogs no matter what breed or mix they might be.

[giantlover]

Obedience, flyball, agility are all activities you can do with any dog. 4-H has a showmanship portion of it's obedience program, it shows how you handle your dog, how the dog handles the ring, judges, etc. It has been an excellent way for my son, who handles our Saint, to educate people about his dogs history.

[Kris]

With the ability today to clone animals, why NOT let s/n dogs be shown? Then an owner who is contemplating cloning might know in advance how close to perfect conformation his/her dog is and whether cloning might actually help to advance the breed?

(yeah, this is thrown out as just a 'devil's advocate' position but matbe something for the future as cloning grows in access?)

Kris

[Kris]

well, 2 months have gone by with no reply so I figured I'd reask the question...

Why not allow s/n dogs to be shown with the current cloning advances?

Kris

[Spiritus]

Because at this time, cloning is NOT an acceptable way to produce dogs. The whole aspect of cloning makes me ill. We have enough animals of every kind out there that don't have homes (horses, dogs, cats, cattle, chickens, etc., etc., etc.). Why on earth would we clone MORE????

When people buy a "pet" pup from me, but want to try showing, then they are sold on a separate agreement stating that they can stay intact to show. The Canadian Kennel Club's non-breeding agreement/registration allows dogs registered as "non-breeding" to be shown, but any litters resulting from breeding cannot be registered. It is my understanding that the AKC does not allow "non-breeding" registered animals to show, which, IMO, is sad. Some "pet" people WANT to show, and they should be able to leave their dog intact to do so, IF they are responsible and the breeder trusts them. With the CKC, the non-breeding registration can be lifted or "upgraded" at any time with the agreement of both the breeder and the owner, so that that dog CAN produce more dogs that fall within it's standard.

As Crossfire said, conformation showing is to prove/promote breeding animals. Spayed/neutered animals are obviously not breeding animals and can't further themselves by producing. It's not to say these dogs aren't beautiful, or are "less" that their intact relatives.

[Kris]

Ok, let's see if I can provide an example that would make cloning acceptable...

Many breeds today are missing teeth in their 'show-worthy' lines and it is not considered a mark against them. Let's assume for the moment that a dog is bred, sold, raised whose teeth all come in. He was fixed before his lack of this deformity (yes, it IS a deformity regardless of what the standard says) became apparent as that was in the contract.

This dog can, then, improve the breed but never will because he will never attain 'champion' status due to the rules on conformity. If he could be shown he could still be used to improve the breed and that is what all conscientious breeders want, yes?

Kris

[Crossfire Bulldogs]

I've already stated why I don't feel that showing s/n dogs should be but, heres my take on cloning when it comes to showing dogs.....

While the intention of every reputable breeder is the betterment of the breed, there is no "perfect" specimen and while cloning may be an option for some when they feel they have something that in their opinion closely meets the standard in every way that written standard is still up for debate amongst breeders. It's far from a "black & white" book, there are huge grey areas and no two people are going to get the exact same meaning from those written words.

By cloning show dogs I believe what we would have nothing more than the "current" top winning dogs who are cloned winning time and time again. This would accomplish two things in my opinion, increase the number of people who fall into the very same trap as we see with popular sire syndrome and the very same thing could occur....huge concerns of a total lack of genetic diversity and if we began cloning where is there room for improvement? Would we then be not only kennel blind but ring blind as well?

[Kris]

I tend to believe that whether we like it or not (and for the record I'm opposed to cloning) cloning is going to be used in breeding. Now, I see the outcome two very different ways:

First, it can be embraced by the breeding community and used as a way to further differentiate lines by maintaining the breeding capability of s/n dogs that ended up being closer to the standard than had been thought looking at them as pups.

Second, it can be opposed by the community and utilized only by the puppy mill types who will see it as the cheapest (because like all new advances prices will come down) way to be sure to have the more expensive 'show quality' puppies.

Either way, as far as I know, there are no current policies about cloned dogs being shown. Or am I misinformed?

The easiest way to influence how cloning is used is to develop policies today that will encourage it's positive uses. The only way I can see to do that is to allow s/n dogs to compete with their natural peers. Thus an owner considering cloning their s/n dog because "He/she conforms better than the dog who won" can know ahead of time that the dog in question is or is not a good example of the breed.

Kris

[Spiritus]

First of all, teeth are no reason to clone. Just because one specimen in a line has all his teeth while the rest don't doesn't mean that dog should be bred (if we're using lack of teeth as a reason not to breed). Just because HE has teeth, doesn't mean his offspring will. Likely, it is still genetically there, just not apparent in that specific dog.

My mind is completely closed to cloning. It is not the answer to anything. If we have a species of animal that is about to become extinct, then we need to look at what WE are doing to cause that extinction, not clone more. It seems to me that cloning is the easy way out, the way to give up responsibility for our actions.

For example, let's use dogs. If a breeder sells that "perfect" specimen as a pet - maybe didn't see it's potential as a puppy, then that breeder will learn from his/her mistakes and look at things more closely next time. We have options as breeders to repeat a breeding to try to get similar dogs to the first breeding, just like we have options NOT to repeat a breeding, or even use the dog(s) again for breeding if a litter turns out completely bad. Cloning because we didn't keep the right puppy from a litter is a cop out, a way to put up our hands and say oh well, let's just clone him.

Crossfire is right. Only the "winning" dogs would be cloned. Bloodlines would narrow down to nothing. In fact, why breed at all when we can clone?

I sure hope I don't live to see that day.....

[Glitzie]

I thought the ILP or PENN was for people who wanted to show S/N
pets? I mean not for confirmation, but other things like OB, Agility & herding,etc.?

[linnie]

isnt this debate about whether it is ok to show spayed/neutered dogs??
I hope cloning never becomes the "NORMAL" for the world
have you ever noticed how when man interferes with nature he just ends up ruining it.
As for showing s/n dogs I think as a fun day for animal lovers that there would be nothing wrong with it but I do understand why in the breeding circles they take their shows so seriously and I applaud anyones effort who is trying to keep healthy bloodlines in our dogs

[Crossfire Bulldogs]

Originally Posted by Glitzie

I thought the ILP or PENN was for people who wanted to show S/N
pets? I mean not for confirmation, but other things like OB, Agility & herding,etc.?

ILPS and PENNs can be used in different events just not in the AKC conformation rings.

[12weimgirl]

You all have good points but i have an altered boxer and he stacks too!! LOL I do it just for fun and it would be sooooooo fun for him to be able to show for fun also, He would probably LOVE to be in a show!! LOL He is a funny dog like that....

Lauren

[Camz]

Hrmm...

My only fear with cloning is that in certain breeds, it would reduce the already small gene pool.

For ex: one champion stud used all over the world dies from natural causes...is cloaned, used for show again, and sires dogs from all over the world.

It would be harder that way to find dogs not related, who are of good quality, to breed.

Besides, the point of breeding is to constantly try to better the breed. It would be easy to clone, and take the challenege of breeding away.

Also, I think there are some serious problems with animals who have been cloned. I remember reading that they tend to die early in life and have health problems. Maybe things have changed since I read of dolly the sheep.

Now, back to topic!

I certainly don't see anything wrong with spayed and neutered dogs being shown in special classes.

Normal shows are to test breedworthiness, so there would be no point in showing them in a non s/n class.

I think it would be great for people to involve themselves in that way in the show world- it would give pet owners a great appreciation of dog conformation, and all of the work it takes to show.