citronella -vs- shock

[mrsgrubby]

I posted a thread a few weeks ago about my puppy's vocalness when playing.

Part of Novel's answer really got me thinking, and I haven't been able to decide my opinion. So I decided to post this thread.

(Novel, thanks for posting your answer...you've stumped my brain and given hubby and I something to discuss for over a week now...LOL...This post is by no means trying to discredit what you said.)

So here is my question...

There are two main types of bark collars on the market. One is a shock collar that shocks the dog after a bark or two. The one my sister uses doesn't buzz or anything first, (as far as I've heard) it just seems to shock.

The other type is a citronella collar. This collar sprays a light squirt of citronella oil up in the air if the dog barks. The collar almost makes a shhh noise as it squirts the oil. The logic is that citronella is an unusual smell that most dogs don't normally smell so it startles them into being quiet between the burst of smell and the noise.

Because I saw how unhappy my sister's dog was while wearing the shock type bark collar, we purchased a citronella one a few years back, thinking it was much more humane.

However, we alll know how sensitive a dogs nose is. Is it actually easier on them to recieve a small shock for barking, than flooding their senses with the smell of citronella?

Also, for a dog that might be a bit aggressive, and barking at dogs or people, is the shock collar going to make them more aggressive then the citronella collar which seems to startle them but nothing else?

What are your thoughts on which collar is more humane?

(I know many of you are going to say "neither....people need to teach their dogs not to bark." and I agree, but that is not my question, my question is specifically about the merits, advantages, disadvantages of the two collars.)


Edit to add....as far as the shock collar...I am not talking about an e-collar. This is not the same as a shock collar for barking. The collar I have see does not have a remote controled by the human. It is self contained and only used to teach a dog not not bark. the only thing that triggers the shock is a barking dog, and you can't vary the extend of the shock.

sorry for the confusion....

[mulroony]

I guess I would say a shock collar is more humane. (Unless you are using 3 of them at their highest setting on a chi type thing...) With a dog's nose being so sensative and the fact that effects are much longer lived w/ a spray one I do not think they are all that humane (I would rather get a small shock then something nasty in my nose). I have been shocked many times (light bulbs, bad wiring, computer stuff, a muscle stimulater,...) and it is not as bad as getting something like pepper in my nose.

I guess I have never really had citronella in my nose, but between the two I would choose a shock.

(Not the topic, but I do not see them as a good tool if you have more then one dog, what does a dog learn when it gets shocked for another dog barking??)

[GSD]

you'd think citronella was more humane since it doesn't cause "pain", but as far as im concerned it's pretty worthless. They help humans get over their morallity issues of using an e-collar but that's about it. Worthless doesn't equal humane it just equals worthlessand possibly detrimental to the dog's psyche on a different level than shock, so that collar gets no vote from me.

If using either though, the collar must be associated with correction for a certain behavior. If you just slap a collar on and let the dog start getting shocks or puffs of cit. it will probably cause more confusion because they don't know what it means, what its for, or where its coming from. So even using an ecollar, one must teach for it to be effective.

edited to add: shock is immediate and then gone where as citronella lingers and the dog is exposed to the aversive for much longer than he needs to be, meaning long after he's performing the correct behavior he's still being "corrected" so to speak, very confusing to a dog.

[bigdoglover]

I had to use a shock collar on one of my dogs a long time ago. I put it on the medium setting (3) and kept the remote at hand. The particular collar I had had 3 different buttons, one was a low level of what you had it set on, the other a high level, and the third was mid level but if you held it down, would send the shock for 8 seconds then stop. The other two were "quick" split second pulse. It worked great. After a few times, he got the hint and I dropped it down to level 1. I never had to use the full 8 seconds.

I would say, the shock collar would be best, ONLY if you read the instructions, and your timing is good. As soon as that bark starts to come out, you push the button....not after 2 or 3 barks, because she'll never get it. It will be too confusing.

Hope that helped!

[gsp4619]

I thought a shock collar is another word for the ecollar wich was designed for hunting dogs or some obidence like keeping a dpg maintained to certain feet? And a brak collar was designed for a dog who barks?

I am confused if thier ar two different collars or they are one in the same? Before I answer LOL want to get that straight

Thanks!

[gsp4619]

and holy heck I spelled some major words wrong

[mrsgrubby]

Originally Posted by gsp4619

I thought a shock collar is another word for the ecollar wich was designed for hunting dogs or some obidence like keeping a dpg maintained to certain feet? And a brak collar was designed for a dog who barks?

I am confused if thier ar two different collars or they are one in the same? Before I answer LOL want to get that straight

Thanks!

You are right, I probably confused everyone with my question...The bark collar that shocks DOES NOT have a hand held device and is NOT an e-collar. It is a bark collar that shocks a dog when he is barking. The only way the collar is triggered is by the barking dog. The human has no control over the strength, or timing of the shock.

It is just a barking shock collar with no other use intended but to cure dogs of barking.

[poodlesmom]

I have never used either but I'll share what I've heard. The citronella has a longer effect which lasts even after barking has stopped so I don't feel that is appropriate. I have heard of problems with the barking shock collars which range from defective collars which shock for too long or when they shouldn't.

My personal opinion if I were to want to use a training device it would be an actual e-collar with remote control and different settings. That way there would be actual training involved with human input. All barking should not be considered a bad thing and I wouldn't correct for all. If I gave the command to stop and my dog didn't then I'd give a correction. When the barking did stop I would praise. This is why I think using this type would be more effective than either of the other two choices.

Farley is also very vocal when playing. That I never try to stop as I feel it is the same thing as children playing who are laughing and squealing, etc. They are just having fun and I personally think if I were to try to stop it he would take that to mean that playtime is over. However, when he is barking for other reasons and if he doesn't stop when I tell him I utilize a penny bottle. All I need to do is have him see me pick it up and he stops immediately.

[sammy]

You seriously want to use an aversive collar to stop your puppy's barking during play? How about teaching him to settle? Teach you dog what he SHOULD do rather than punishing what he shouldn't and you'll have far more success. (BTW, this is part of the CGC test at least it is in Canada - get your dog all riled up playing and then get them to settle on cue)

I know you just wanted us to pick one but seriously, If you do a little research on e-collars, shock collars- you'll find that they are a quick fix and typically don't work very well in the long term. Barking is self reinforcing. Why not choose training over equipment designed to punish a self reinforcing behavior?

[mrsgrubby]

Originally Posted by sammy

You seriously want to use an aversive collar to stop your puppy's barking during play? :

Sammy, you know me better than that!!!! No I don't want to use a collar to stop my puppy barking during play. Not at all.. My original post was about my husband's horrible migraine headaches and how he doesn't like our new puppy violet because she barks non stop during play and it sometimes makes him throw up.

Novel had suggested several different ideas to help with the issue. but as a result of that thread and her posting about the two bark collars I posted this thread. LOL...

[linnie]

I dont particularly like either but would have to say the citronella one would be nastier as the smell is offensive and lasts forever
If I had to ( and I stress HAD ) I would opt for the collar that the dog was actually in control of . Not the human
Hence dog barks collar bites dog stops,..... hopefully lol

[Novel]

Mrsgrubby---
I am glad I got you to thinking... and I would never take offense to someone seeking out more ideas, more information or more opinions. I would encourage that!!

As far as the two... It's a difficult decision between the two, isn't it?! If you had to make the choice...

Jasmine rarely barks, right?? Well, IMO, that reduces the down side of the bark collar, because yes, it will shock if another dog barks. Families that have more than one barking dog need to understand that. The other down side I've seen in bark collars is that the dogs are quite smart, and know when they are wearing the collar... or when the batteries have gone dead.

The citronella.... well, I hate that smell personally. And for a dog, who has a possible million times better sense of smell, that has got to be pretty tough, and, because it can't have a set end... like the shock from the other type of collar, I would have more reservations...

My choice between the two would be the bark collar. When used responsibly, in conjunction with training, seems the best alternative.

While a dog was wearing it, and barked, and received the shock, the trainer/owner/handler, could also reinforce using a vocal command. The opposite side of the clicker, and very effective, for those times when not using the collar.

[WolfRyder]

Another thing to consider, if your dog "howls" sometimes instead of barking (some breeds do), they will just learn to howl instead of bark while wearing the citronella collar. I was told this by someone who has had this experience with her dogs.

I haven't tried it yet, as our dog doesn't bark that much, but I've read if you teach your dog to "speak", just as any trick, you can also teach it to "no speak".

[D.Schäferhund]

Hmmm I really don't like any of them. You are not supposed to have the collars on unsupervised anyways, ,because of malfunctions and other things that might happen.

The citronella, well i heard of dogs that just emptied the3 spray and kept barking anyways, I heard of dogs that just turn their head to get away from the spray and bark anyways.
Well depending on the dog the citronella spray can be worse then getting a shock.

Well i emphasize trieing to get rid of the cause of barking.
I know it is supposed to be a thread of which one is the better choice, but i can't bring myself to even think about using it.

I can follow your thinking Mrsgrubby, and i know it is not for your dog.
But I just don't see any use in these collars. If only for use supervised, why not take the time to go for a walk tire them out and reduce the barking this way or try redirecting.
So well I guess i tried to make a point wich one is the better choice, but really to be honest, there is no better choice.
the way they are used and depending on the dogs sensitivity to shock or scents it really doesn't matter.it might just have no or a great impact on the dog, and as usua;l there are dogs wich can outsmart it.
That thing is really a symptom treatmant for me, but not helping with the cause of the problem.

[reggies mom]

The brand of bark collar I got for Reggie beeps once to give her a warning on her 1st bark and if she barks again it will shock her. It does NOT go off if my other dog barks, it only works if she barks. She learned quickly that if she barked and heard the beep that she should not bark again.