Social animals, leadership, and communication

[Raised By Wolves]

I just watched yet another great special on Shirley Strum and her nearly 30 years of study with a family group of baboons known as "The Pumphouse Gang".

A lot of her studies have been quite controversial amoungst her peers in the scientific community. Mainly the outdated belief that male baboons exert their place within the group through force. The same outdated conclusions reached about the pack interactions between wolves, many years ago.

Shirley mentions that although there is a lot of display, actual violence is rare as it would not benifit the individual in the long run, or the group as a whole. She also has discovered that baboons are social strategists rather than brutes, in order to win favor within the group and in relationships with the females.

The more I study the lives and interactions between social animals, the more I see social structure with a clear hierarchy, leadership, and constant communication between the members of the group as the primary influence in what makes for a stable and fulfilled social being.

I also look around me and see how quickly a dog can fall apart or become aggressive when not provided with leadership and a clear understanding of where they fit within their social group, pack, or "family".

After a dog's basic needs for survival are met, leadership and fulfilling the dog as they were designed by nature should come next with training as an aid in this process, not a substitute for it.

[DaisySunshine]

So how do you fulfill a dog?

[mrsgrubby]

ARe there any good book about dog signs and language? Like what a yawn means, and what looking away means, and such?

I just heard something about how humans are so vocal and the majority of our communication is vocal/verbal. But dogs are more smell, sight, then sound communicators.

This means our number one way of communication is their 3rd level of communication. So most of us are missing #1 and #2 when it comes to our dogs. We try to communicate vocally, but they are reading our smells and actions and body posture.

Then when they try to communicate with us, we miss it because we don't know what the posture or movement they are doing means.

That would be like me moving to china and not able to understand a word each other are saying.

Without help, many of us will never be albe to project leadership or fulfill our dogs.

One good book on leadership IMO is Cesar's Way, by Cesar Millan. Keep in mind this is not a dog training book, it is a book on how to act to become a leader.....but I have yet to find one on how to read the signs my dog is trying so hard to send me back.

[Raised By Wolves]

Originally Posted by DaisySunshine

So how do you fulfill a dog?

Fulfillment to me, is paying attention to how an animal is designed by nature, and doing our best to see to it the animal gets what they need from us in order to be both physically and psychologically healthy.

An example that really hits home with me, is what I observed in racehorses at a local track many years ago. The horses at this track exibited a lot of behavior problems from confinement. Horses were designed by nature to move together in social groups and graze over a wide area of land to get their nurishment.

When confined to a stall, given rich feed which was quickly eaten, and denied contact with others of their own kind, a lot of "unnatural" behaviors began to crop up. Wood chewing, weaving, pawing, and stall kicking were some of the behaviors I observed in these horses.

Many horses I've observed which were not isolated and confined in such a manner, did not seem to have a lot of these problems. Two of my horses came from the track, and were both horrific wood chewers. My third horse was pasture raised, and did not have any of these "behavioral" problems.

[DaisySunshine]

Originally Posted by Raised By Wolves

Fulfillment to me, is paying attention to how an animal is designed by nature, and doing our best to see to it the animal gets what they need from us in order to be both physically and psychologically healthy.

An example that really hits home with me, is what I observed in racehorses at a local track many years ago. The horses at this track exibited a lot of behavior problems from confinement. Horses were designed by nature to move together in social groups and graze over a wide area of land to get their nurishment.

When confined to a stall, given rich feed which was quickly eaten, and denied contact with others of their own kind, a lot of "unnatural" behaviors began to crop up. Wood chewing, weaving, pawing, and stall kicking were some of the behaviors I observed in these horses.

Many horses I've observed which were not isolated and confined in such a manner, did not seem to have a lot of these problems. Two of my horses came from the track, and were both horrific wood chewers. My third horse was pasture raised, and did not have any of these "behavioral" problems.

Eeee don't even get me started on racehorses. Mine was an x-racer too. She was horribly, horribly abused. She hated men til the day she was PTS. And she was PTS because she went so lame she couldn't move! and she was only 14!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No doubt from the very common practice of racing horses before they are fully devoloped. Don't EVEN get me started on that topic.

[Ritz459]

Quick question on dogs' signals...when they offer you a paw (like as to shake but you didn't tell them too) they are feeling insecure?? Because Rose does that sometimes when we are out in public and I know she is a timid dog...

[Raised By Wolves]

Originally Posted by Ritz459

Quick question on dogs' signals...when they offer you a paw (like as to shake but you didn't tell them too) they are feeling insecure?? Because Rose does that sometimes when we are out in public and I know she is a timid dog...

I don't think offering a paw means only one thing. In Rose's case it could be to connect with you, get your attention, maybe nudge you into going home. I have noticed some dogs use their paws quite gently, perhaps mimickng how we use our hands the same way some dogs learn to smile. Although my dog smiles in her more "submissive" moments as when she is greeting me, or if I catch her being "naughty".

I caught her getting into something one time, and all I did was come up behind her and say "hey" - she was all teeth! Can you imagine if I had taken this as a bared teeth threat gesture?! I knew what it was, and just picked up the mess she had made, while trying not to laugh at her big toothy grin.

For me it's not just about the gesture, it's what's going on when a dog initiates the gesture, and if you are in the leadership position. The "action/reaction" sequence is a "biggie" with me and one of the primary ways I establish leadership.

Some dogs are very pushy when they "paw" you, as if they are demanding something from you. Others are quite gentle, as if they are asking something of you. I teach my dogs to be gentle with their "toes", and I swear my lab used to just like to "hold hands". I think there is a lot more going on between us and our dogs than most people realise!

We are beings of verbal language, as Mrsgrubby mentioned. I think we rely too much on verbal communication and do better with animals when we shift into body language, eye contact, verbal tone, body posture, and body positioning.

I found Cesar's book to be great in understanding how dogs think and interpret us "in dog". I hope his next book covers HIS view on dog body language and signals. Most of what's out there right now seems to contain way too much human emotion and projected feelings, in how we are reading "dogese".

[D.Schäferhund]

pawing is wantimg contact, giving the paw does not have to be taught they do it it is building contact, the resons can be diffeent ones... a loving pat or a play starter.
depends on the situation and all over picture....

RBW:
I don't know where you want to go with this, or what you expect from that thread.
but I totally agree with you.
But on the other hand that is responsible animal ownership.
they have needs and you have to fullfill them.
neurotic behaviour come from frustration. they have to fullfill what they are living for and if they can't do it like in the wild they have to find other forms to release that.
a horse that is stuck in a small stall will get frustrated and "will find" a thing to do and that will get a neurotic behaviour pattern.
many horses start to "crib"(swallow air) weave from one leg to the other, start headshaking.

wich brings me back to dogs, because if they aren't excerzised enough they will be dangreous.
a dominat horse, unbalanced can be like a weapon!
plus if there is a energie overflow they get extremly skiddish and that alone is a dangerous thing.
dogs as well as horses need excercise and soila companions to stay healthy.

i don't dare to box up my horse longer than 12 hours. he plows his stall, because he gets frustrated.
well when i have to leave him in longer i have to find ways to make it easy for him, give him the chance to work harder for his food.

I don't need no studies and iu don't need no behaviourists telling me that beeing frustrated in wich way ever brings up behaviour problems...
Well i had the honor to grow up with animals, and with 13 years i got my horse a colt 10 month old.
i learned quikly when he was getting frustrated.
It is comon sense...

wich would bring that discussion to the point, how much comon sense do people have left- because they need behaviourists and scientists tell them :" Go excersize your dog" -"let your horse graze on a pasture" .

How wierd are we, we should do some studies on humans, and how they get detached to the basic thing of live, and comon sense!!!!

[Raised By Wolves]

Originally Posted by D.Schäferhund

How wierd are we, we should do some studies on humans, and how they get detached to the basic thing of live, and comon sense!!!!

Kat,

You just hit the nail on the head!

Animals are sooo easy, so pure. No personal agendas, no living in the past or projecting themselves into the future...they simply exist as designed by nature. Why are we so differently motivated? We may never know. Yet, I still try to understand because we are the ones in control of these "beings", we are drawn to.

I think maybe we have lost something...which an observation and a connection to animals can give back to us.

I welcome any thoughts on this topic, as we are social animals, too.

[Ritz459]

Hm, I was reading Black Beauty last night and this thread just reminds me of the book!
How all of the animals start out perfectly fine, but it is the humans that mess them up. How the animals have more common sense then we do, even though we have more "intellegence". How fashion is one of the biggest corrupeters of all. (And isn't it though? That is what is causing all of these designer breeds to flood the market...fashion!) And how anyone who mistreats animals most definitally belongs to the devil.

wich would bring that discussion to the point, how much comon sense do people have left- because they need behaviourists and scientists tell them :" Go excersize your dog" -"let your horse graze on a pasture" .

But isn't it amazing how much people follow science religously? Some people are so caught up in it that if science hasn't proved it, then it can't be true. And if you tell them something like "Go exercise your dog, it will help solve behavior issues" they'll scoff at you, but then as soon as it is "proven" they listen without a 2nd thought.
And it is that way with a Celeb too...if an ordinary person tries to tell them something, they'll cast it aside, but if Paris Hilton *gags* or Reggie Miller says something, then it must be cast into steel and followed!

I think that if people did start following common sense and stopped listening what the crowd is telling us, we'd be much better off.

[calgal]

Maybe this site will fit in with dogs and how they are and their roll.

http://www.ostf.org/celebratedogs.htm

[polly_pop]

ARe there any good book about dog signs and language? Like what a yawn means, and what looking away means, and such?

Brenda Aloff has a very good book called Canine Body Language: A Photographic Guide, which might be what you're looking for. It's a little pricey, but I think it's definitely worth it.

[Raised By Wolves]

Originally Posted by Ritz459

I think that if people did start following common sense and stopped listening what the crowd is telling us, we'd be much better off.

Very true.

From what I've observed, there would be no point for social animals to all be born leaders, so there are simply more followers born. Followers tend to do what they were born to do...follow along with whoever leads them. As humans, we have the benefit of independent thought and free will. We can choose who to follow and who to believe once we grow up and become adults.

Unfortunately, common sense seems to be lacking in much of the human "herd", even when it bites them in the leg.