preydrive - "toydrive" two different things?

[D.Schäferhund]

We got to talking lately about the preydrive and the "balldrive"
though balldrive a/or toydrive aren't "official" drives, but it made us think.
this term is often used.
And so there is a special word for it, are these two differnt things?

so we compared dogs, starting with my Kessy and other high drive dogs they have a "lack" of wanting to posess a toy(sleeve) they get it but they don't "guard it" like other dogs that just want the toy.
As long as it is "wanted" by me it is wanted by the dog.

a ball for example looses attention, when i loose interest in it, if i keep my interest up, the intrest from the dog stays up, too.
and not because it is a "dead" object.
A turtle on the other hand, wich does not move, even an empty shell is carried miles, and i don't have to show interst in it at all.
and of course rabbits have a great deal of interest to the dog. or mice, wich get killed and then carried arround, and it is watched over them, like other dogs do with balls or toys.
i am not talking about the search of the prey (wich would involve the huntdrive) i am talking about, the interest of keeping prey.
where some dogs lack the so much wanted "preydrive" in play with a towel or ball, they may act different to a "live" prey.

so is there a preydrive that has a subdevition "toy or balldrive?"

i know this is a little hairsplitting, but i hope you get to understand what i am trying to say and get me your input on it.
does it come with a more rewarding experience with a live prey eventhough it is not difficult to find, or is there a lain preference issue....?!?!?

[TribalRats]

I think it is one in the same personally.
Lexie is the one here with the high prey drive, well now Goose as well. She is the only one of my Rats to catch a Rat and she caught her first one at only 5 months old.

She is also the Rat that will chase any ball, any toy, any water that comes out of a hose, anything.Emma could care less, Paige could care less and I think it is there in Mia as well. We have not had the opportunity to have her hunt yet however she tracks toys like crazy.
Goose is the same way, no real experience YET but he is very protective of his toys and will chase anything you throw.

[sammy]

I think it's basically the same drive. But toys require someone to throw it to make it move so the dog can chase and there's not much point stalking it. Real prey can be stalked, chased and killed without any human needing to be involved. Some dogs seem to only like real prey- toys don't cut it. Maybe those dogs lack imagination j/k. Toys aren't as much fun to kill although some dogs seem to love to shake them and rip them to shreds if the're allowed

[GSD]

Some people swear its the same, others swear its different. I think they use the same stuff a dog has, there are just varying intensities in different dogs and for different items by the same dog. Some dogs will perform different "prey" sequences depending on the object some only alert and stalk, when it comes to bite, nothing, some will bite out of curiousity, some will bite and hold, some bite and thrash. I try not to get too caught up in defining stuff like this, i say find what your dog has and work with it, whether its toy or play or prey drive to a certain person.

[moxiegrl]

Katie shows little to no interest in our leapord gecko...however the cats are a different story She also loves her toys, and will play with them, toss them around, and rip them up w/out any persuation from me.

[Spiritus]

You can have prey drive without toy drive, but you can't have toy drive without prey drive.

So, some dogs with good prey drive may not be toy driven, but likely would be. And then there are the other dogs that don't have higher prey drive, or prey drive, period.... In my experience, they do not have a toy drive either....

[D.Schäferhund]

Originally Posted by GSD

I try not to get too caught up in defining stuff like this, i say find what your dog has and work with it, whether its toy or play or prey drive to a certain person.

True!
but that is what i intendet making a defining discussion out of it.
for the work of course it does not matter, you always have to find a way.
i want to know if there are more observations like this are out there, and how other people see it
If they agree and saw the same or if they disagree and why.

If there is such thing as a "toydrive " or is it plain preydrive.

[GSD]

I guess I'd say its the same, just different things are prey to dogs. When I first started retrieve work with my dog, the dumbell was not prey, or a toy, she didn't like to bite it, would chase it cause it moved, but nothing after that. that didn't last long, now she see's it, and she's nuts, jumping shaking, she' jumps into a heel, and off we go. Now I throw it and she sits shaking and staring until I release and she's gone and back in no time. I play tug with itnow and its great, but at first it wasn't a prey item to her. Same reason some dogs like tugs, some like balls, some like only frisbees and some like each to varying degrees. So yeah, i htink they're the same, its just what a dog considers "prey" will dictate its intensity and such.

[Spiritus]

I think that this is a good discussion

I have had dogs that had great prey drive, but didn't care about the toy. The nice thing with a dog with prey drive is that toy drive can be taught. It's harder to do if the dog lacks the prey drive. We talk about dogs that are food motivated, toy motivated, whatever, but we never seem to talk about why they are the way they are. I have one bitch who doesn't really care if you have food in your hand, if she doesn't want to work, she doesn't. This is a dog with decent prey drive - IF she feels like it. I've been told that this is a "selfish" temperament. I haven't done any real training with her because why? I have such biddible dogs that LOVE to work for me, for food, for toys, it's hard for ME to get motivated enough to motivate the selfish one. She has been bred, but when I select her boys, I select them for their drive and biddibility.

So here's another thing to throw into the conversation.... biddibility. A dog with good prey drive and toy drive, who often-times says "nah, I don't think I feel like it". I now select puppies that have good toy drive. I encourage my litter to chase that ball or play tug with me and each other, because I have learned that toy drive is very important in training. If they don't want what you have to offer them, it's hard to motivate them.

[D.Schäferhund]

Jup that is what i am thinking.
but well these dogs that have low preydrive or toydrive and work just when they like, are a challenge.for me anyways.
with a little work you can get them to do things and finally they have to work because they want to.
Kessy didn't care for balls, ytoys nor treats, but i got her, beeing persistent,I started work that had the pkeasur in itself, all kinds of obstacles, combined with running nd jumping, was just fun for her, that was excersice and she loved that, it may just take some time to find the motivator...
I do not agre with the selfish thing, thoug...
It to me is more independence and you have to work for their dependence, but once you got them, oh boy they work.... and then just for the pleasure of doing it for you.

judging by my aika, she has little to no preydrive, if i just would look at the way she wants and plays with toys, but heck she sees certain prey and she wants it 9eventhough 0 it is prey that is not supposed to be prey)
Kessy would have failed almost all testings for a good workingdog, if i would have gotten of the preydrive examined by the way they chase toys, true she works in bitework mostly over defense but also over a little preydrive.
but boy does she goes after real prey! now she even plays ball or tugs.

Spirit , or anybody else-you need to help me out with vocabulaty, can you explain biddability, to me, i just can't find it in my dictionaries....
thanks kat

[Spiritus]

Biddibility would be wanting to please, wanting to do everything asked of them just cause we asked it

I do like how you say to just work harder to find that thing, to help teach them to be more dependent, rather than independent. That would be my girl - very independent. You've given me something to think about, and maybe, just maybe I will get a CD on this girl yet.

Thank you.

[ebony923]

What about food drive :P... My lab doesnt really have any toy drive... like if she's in the mood she might kinda joog over to where I just threw the ball but not anyhting enthusicastic... but then if she see's a squirrel or bird or something... theres no stopping her almost... so yeah... *shrugs* I guess its just what the dog likes or what not...

[PinkSheep24]

Holly doesnt have much toy drive, only a wee bit if we show lots of interest in the toy and we're playing with it and her also. She prefers to play with us.
Holly does show alot of interest in our rabbits though, she'd sit and watch them for hours. I dont know if she'd kill them though. She'd also chase birds, etc when we're out on a walk and she's off the lead.

[Camz]

Huh...

I like this thread. Very interesting. Keeshonden on the whole are not supposed to have high prey or toy drives.

My pup, however, has both and they both strong. She will snatch bugs out of the air (hasn't had a chance to go after anything else) and is totally crazy about her toys.

She's got this one toy (her lamb) that she'll grab by the throat and then twist her head around and slam the lamb down on the ground. It's almost scary to watch, because I know it's gotta be instinct. Obviously, my bf and I didn't teach her that.

My bf said that if that were a real animal, that would be how a wolf would break the neck of its smaller prey.

(on a side note, she also herds us if we're running and playing with her!)

At any rate, I truly enjoy this discussion. I find it odd that a dog could be drivey, and not be interested in toys. Maybe those dogs are are so used to using their drive for "business" that they don't find using it for play pleasurable.

I do not know if this is the case. It is only an idea from someone who knows nothing (or very little) about working or herding dogs.

I also loved that picture of the rat terrier having killed that vermin! How great to see them accomplish EXACTLY what they are bred to do. Very exciting, imo.

As a matter of curiousity, when a dog is involved in lure coursing, do you belive that is more prey or toy driven...OR...is this one of those combinations of the two?

[anaconda]

Finn has a very strong prey drive. He chases flies, birds and rabbits, and he never catches anything. He's also got a very strong toy drive and usually runs after anything. I think the reason he never catches anything is that for him rabbits, birds and (lol) flies are just different sorts of toys. That's probably why he never catches anything. So for Finn, toy drive and prey drive are the same thing.