English Bulldogs: Inhumane/Cruel breeding experiment or lovably flawed?

mr c · 10-04-2006, 09:32 AM

If you look at the old pictures of bulldogs throughout history you'll see an animal very different from today's English Bulldog. The original dog was athletic, hardy, and of stable but imposing demeanor. This was a utility dog for the bullbait as well as a guardian for the home. After bullbaiting was banned the original bulldog began to die out but was "saved" by fanciers of breed. Once it began to enter the show ring man's selfish desire for exagerated characteristics tookover.

Today's bulldog has an abnormally large head that makes regular birth almost always impossible. Bulldogs cannot always mate either as they can overheat. They have hip problems, breathing problems, longevity problems.. here's a list of issues common to bulldogs:

Over heating, heat exhaustion, heat stroke, excessive panting or barking Bulldogs can actually cause edema (swelling) to their throats and larynx causing severe respiratory distress, Brachiocephalic Syndrome, the hypoplastic trachea is excessively narrowed even to the point of collapsing (usually as wide as a pencil in adult dogs), cherry eye, Keratitis Sicca, Entropion/ Ectropion, Ectopic cilia/Dystichia, what would be considered "awful" hips on almost any other breed will be acceptable on a bulldog, Luxating patellas, Ingrown or corkscrew tails can become a serious problem, seasonal flank alopecia, yeast growing in the excessively wrinkled skin, and heart murmurs.

Its a wonder this dog exists. When it does exist it has a very limited lifespan, some dogs never reaching 6 but they usually live between 6-10 years old.

Is what we did to the noble bulldog fair and humane? Was breeding for exageration a cruel thing to do to the English Bulldog? No doubt they're lovable animals but its hard not to pity them and be angered by man's breeding science experiment. Thoughts?

Crib and Rosa, old english bulldogs.

calgal · 10-04-2006, 10:15 AM

This is a great time to post our dogs backgrounds. I dearly love reading about the dogs as they were when they first started out! Your Bull dogs history is so complex and interesting. I'm certainly glad they did not go extinct, as they have enriched millions of lives and bring smiles to everyone who gazes upon those wonderful faces and beautiful eyes.

Now for my babies! My two Yorkies first... http://www.yorkshire-terrier-journal...h/erasse22.htm

And my two tiny Chihuahua's who came for the little fox.

http://www.thedogplace.com/Reference...ua/history.htm

calgal · 10-04-2006, 10:16 AM

Came "from" the little fox. Didn't want to sound like they are after the fox.

Crossfire Bulldogs · 10-04-2006, 10:31 AM

I could only echo the words of judge Elizabeth Hugo so I'll simply repost her original article titled "What have we done to our breed?" Originally published in the Bulldogger June 2003 edition - Number 104.

How many times have we heard this? Anywhere from breeders of other breeds who don't quite understand some of the issues we go through, to the media who question our "true motives" for perpetuating the suffering inflicted by our stubborn adherence to the Standard, to a few enterprising breeders here and abroad who have strived to "make this breed better" or to bring it "back to its former glory" by crossing existing bulldogs with breeds such as Mastiffs, bullmastiff, American Bulldogs, Olde English, you name it.

Scariest of all is the Weiss Kennel Club's backing of a scheme of a former Bulldog breeder to make the breed "as it was meant to be" by cross breeding pure Bulldogs with Old English and/or American Bulldogs (not sure which one, either way, it is appalling to me and should be to everyone who loves this breed as it is now). Strangely enough, these people are not at all recreating the Rose and Crib style dog of old, but have merely created nothing more than a generic bull-breed mix. (If they read their history, they would know that in order to get back to the Bulldogs of the pre-1860's they would have to downsize quite a bit, but that probably wouldn't appeal to those interested as much as the dogs advertised as weighing well over 100 pounds.)

In these days of "cock-apoos, peke-a-poos, "Labradoodles" and even Miniature Bulldogs, what's another man made breed? That's really all these new bull-breeds are. It's another way to profit off a public hungry for something "new," or to benefit from our breed's wild popularity. Many of these breeders advertise their dogs as "healthier versions of the broken down modern English Bulldog."

So, back to the above question. The answer is quite simple. "What have we done to our breed?" Not much. Oh, we have improved it quite a bit, but we certainly have done nothing to this breed maintenance of a breed that has remained virtually unchanged since the type we see today was "stamped" in the late 1800's.

Certainly, we can look at things such as modern nutrition and techniques for better conditioning and 100 more years of breeding selection to make up for the subtle difference in style and substance between then and now, but when we look back over the last century, we see dogs that were first visualized and then realized by a very dedicated group of fanciers.

The bottom line: The dogs we all love today are pretty much what the early club members had in mind. (I'm sure those fanciers would have something to say about the over all lack of some absolute necessitates for type such as true top line, front ends, tail set and the troubling lack of any massive jaw size, length and sweep which is rampant these days in America and the general over all lack of truly grand head type, but they dealt with these issue back then, too, and I am referencing show dogs. Pet quality has and always will run the gambit between truly poor to very good.)

The biggest complaint of the "anti-bulldog" movement is that we (modern breeders) have created a breed of dog which is on the edge of extinction, either by the breeding/whelping difficulties, the exaggerated conformation, the breathing difficulties, the aggravating immune-related disorders, and so on and so on....

A brief history of our breed is that it was once a fierce little fighting dog that almost went extinct after the 1835 "Act" which banned the dog-baiting sports until a group of men gathered together to save it. The Bulldog Club was formed in good part to preserve the type as they knew it, to maintain purity from that point forward. The Pug crosses of a decade or so prior had been quietly swept under the rug and some early ardent fanciers denied it all together. While some strains remained pure, the strains with the cross ultimately influenced the final product, the "Missing Link" as it were between the Crib/Rosa types and the modern type. Likely the most important goal was to prevent the importation and cross-breeding of Spanish-breed bulldogs that weighed well over 100 pounds. This was a breed that was totally English and they were bound and determined to keep the breed pure.

From Farman's "Monograph" of 1899: "It was in the fitness of things, therefore, that The Bulldog Club should have come into existence in a public house, the Blue Post, Newman Street, Oxford Street, London. At this place, it was that one night in 1874 a few very hardened admirers of the breed met together, earnest in their intention to save the "pot-house dog" from gradual extinction, as well as the threatened invasion of the Spanish Bulldog under the generalship of Mr. Frank Adcock. It is interesting to note that the very fact of the dog's association saved the breed from becoming a basatard race and preserved it from the impending introduction into its veins of blood of the Spanish Milk-cart dogs.

"The present club was started on the 13th of April, 1975, at a time when a determined attempt was being made by the gentleman already named (Adcock) and Mr. Dawes to "enlarge" the Bulldog from its average size to one of a weight of 100-120 lbs. Although the dog was mainly in the hands of certain class, still its patrons were true fanciers and as jealous of the preservation of the purity of its blood as the patrons of any more fashionable breed. As to the suggested crossbreeding, they would have none of it, it was a case of English for England, and sheer self-defiance the few ardent fanciers banded themselves together and reconstituted the old Bulldog Club, which existed some years earlier, but for a very short time only.

And from an earlier book, the Cynographia Britannia of 1800: "The Bulldog is in height about 18 inches and weighs about thirty-six pounds...."
The old Bulldog of England was not a large dog an it is important to remember that in discussing the purity of "our" Bulldogs compared to the newer created bull breeds, or even the older American Bulldog whose breeders claim it to be purely descended from the old English Bulldogs.

The Standards were written, with Philo Kuon's coming in 1865, Jacob Lamphier's "Properties and Points" coming out in Vero show's Book of the Dog in 1879 and The Bulldog Club's (England) official version in 1875.

That is a condensed history, but it is important to know it as a Bulldog lover of any type.

So, back to the old questions at the beginning of this article. Well, what is interesting to me and is the point of this article in the first place, is that the health woes we experience today were just as common 100+ years ago.
It really flies in the face of those who claim we are going to destroy the breed if we don't crossbreed them and fast!
I found the following passages in some of my favorite old books and thought them to be of interest.

From A.G. Sturgeon's Bulldoggdom 1919, under the heading "Whelping Troubles":
"....Recently (for the last 2 or 3 years) in the Manchester District, fanciers have collectively found that a practical and skillful Veterinary Surgeon has amazingly reduced the mortality in whelping by the Caesarian operation. the percentage of loss, both of puppies and their dams, is exceedingly small, and I feel, that in the interests of the breed, I should put it on record."

Same book has another passage under "Blister on Feet":

"Those red bulging between the toes of many Bulldogs are extremely painful to the dog and very often the cause of bitter disappointment to the owner."

From Bulldogs and ALL About Them by Henry St. John Cooper (around 1910):
"For follicular mange I can offer no suggestions for treatment, except the foregoing, which may or may not be effective, but at any rate is well worth the trial" (he had previously described treatment for sarcoptic mange). "Eczema if often mistaken by the novice for mange."

From the rewrite of Bulldogs and ALL About Them by F. Barrett Fowler (1925):
"I remember at a certain show, a lady gave a special prize to the Bulldog with clean ears. The prize was not awarded, for out of the twelve dogs exhibited not one had clean ears. Canker is very often caused in the first place by neglect. The wax and dirt are apt to stop the hearing and make the dog appear deaf."

There are many more excepts in the old dog books to the Bulldog health concerns. Even the tail issue was a hot topic at the turn of the century. Funny how the breed had the same conditions it has now and is surprisingly still around and thriving in numbers (which in reality is not at all a good thing).

For the anti-Bulldog movement, this should be food for thought. The breed is still around after all this time. And we didn't have to crossbreed them to do it. Our breed (like so many others) has its own particular health issues. Some are quite unique to them alone, some are common among similar bracecephalic breeds and some are just going to happen, regardless of the type of dog it is. And, most important, not every Bulldog suffers these issues. That should always be remembered.

We should be on guard, however. There already seems to be one Kennel Club in the world out to change the breed. And the sponsor claims to be making the breed healthier by crossbreeding it. We need to be aware of the health problems in our breed and we really need to correct them. It's very possible.

And thanks to the efforts of the BCA and others involved in the breed, ignorance is no longer an excuse (not that is ever should have been). There are many Bulldogs that enjoy healthy, normal and lengthy lives, by any breed's standards, and many of them are the finest show dogs.

It must be the goal of every breeder to add health to their overall breeding goals. After all, the mix bull-breed breeders are catering to those who want a Bulldog, but don't want the health problems. It has been going on for too long that people accept the preventable problems as "normal for the breed." There is nothing NORMAL about a dog that struggles to breath through tight nostrils and narrow trachea.

In this day of anti-dog legislation and anti-dog breeder in general, it would behoove us all, not to mention the dogs themselves, to make a very aggressive stand against the Bulldog health issues that seem shadow our breed at every turn. Elizabeth Hugo

By the way, Crib and Rosa are described very well here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English_Bulldog Notice their height and weight? I find it interesting that some breeders of the "new" breeds stemming from the Bulldog believe and scream from the rooftops that their breeding back to the days of Crib and Rosa with their overly large dogs.

rmci · 10-04-2006, 10:45 AM

Because they were no longer needed for bull baiting, they were changed to fit what the public would want to save the dog.
Hmmm, doesn't that make them a "designer" dog from long ago?

CalGal- Interesting facts about the Chihuahua & Yorkshire. Thank you for sharing

Crossfire Bulldogs · 10-04-2006, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmci

Because they were no longer needed for bull baiting, they were changed to fit what the public would want to save the dog.
Hmmm, doesn't that make them a "designer" dog from long ago?

I don't believe anyone, at least as of yet has stated that today's Bulldog isn't a man made breed since a few things have been changed over the years however, I believe about the only things that have changed compared to those of the early 1800s is that today's Bulldog has maintained nothing of the tenacity, speed, and agility that were the definitive characteristics of the Old English Bulldog as well as that those of the Rosa & Crib days were more deficient in wrinkles about the head and neck as well as in substance of bone in the limbs.

mr c · 10-04-2006, 12:20 PM

I had trouble recognizing if that article was tongue-in-cheek or not. Its almost like the author could scarcely convince herself of what she was trying to say. The modern English Bulldog or "sourmug" as he should more appropriately be called has been extensively bred for looks with health as an afterthought. Even a dog representing a perfect model of the standard will have health issues from his head type alone. The big "duh" of the article is in its closing sentences...

After all, the mix bull-breed breeders are catering to those who want a Bulldog, but don't want the health problems.

I think the re-creation of the old bulldog is a great idea so long as they don't get trapped in the same pitfalls the early fanciers of the English bulldog did. They should be breeding for health and athleticism, a stable temperament but one of unwaivering courage; type should definately be secondary. They should NOT be breeding giant 100 lb+ monsters with overly massive heads and smashed muzzles, big versions of the English Bulldog. There's some good breeders trying to do just this, God bless 'em. The author snubs the thought of mixing in outside blood but a few generations ago the bulldog was mixed with pugs.

I think anyone with a shred of decency can put politics aside and admit that man has caused great suffering to the bulldog. Whether you believe that the bulldog should be crossed out for health reasons, as I do, or think that by some miracle solid dogs can come from within, the future health of the bulldog should be top priority. Not a dog that "looks cool."

mr c · 10-04-2006, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calgal

This is a great time to post our dogs backgrounds. I dearly love reading about the dogs as they were when they first started out! Your Bull dogs history is so complex and interesting. I'm certainly glad they did not go extinct, as they have enriched millions of lives and bring smiles to everyone who gazes upon those wonderful faces and beautiful eyes.

Now for my babies! My two Yorkies first... http://www.yorkshire-terrier-journal...h/erasse22.htm

And my two tiny Chihuahua's who came for the little fox.

http://www.thedogplace.com/Reference...ua/history.htm

I think you kind of missed the point of the posting.

calgal · 10-04-2006, 01:45 PM

I think "all" dogs these days are man made, and are of some mixes.

Leon · 10-04-2006, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr c

Is what we did to the noble bulldog fair and humane? Was breeding for exageration a cruel thing to do to the English Bulldog? No doubt they're lovable animals but its hard not to pity them and be angered by man's breeding science experiment. Thoughts?

Breeding for exageration is a cruel thing and a betrayal to the breed's authentic type, however are all modern bulldogs really bred for exageration? Do they all suffer from structural problems?

fireworksinjuly · 10-04-2006, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Inhumane/Cruel breeding experiment or lovably flawed

First you must show me there is a flaw!

I have had my Bulldog for a little over a year. He has no breathing/overheating problems what so ever. Actually my "normal" dog has gotten worn out sooner then my Bulldog has.
The one medical problem he did have was environmentally based, not genetics or "breed problem".
His hips and legs are just fine, neither vet he has been to has found any signs of Luxating patellas or hip problems. His tail is corkscrewed, but just lose enough that nothing grows or collects in there.
He has the most wonderful personality. He most certainly is athletic, hardy, he loves to cuddle and be with you, but would protect the home in a heartbeat!
All these "problems" you talk about were thought about when my dog was breed. With no crossbreeding or mixing other breeds.

The "bad" bulldogs you talk about come from poor breeders.

Quote:

Whether you believe that the bulldog should be crossed out for health reasons, as I do, or think that by some miracle solid dogs can come from within, the future health of the bulldog should be top priority. Not a dog that "looks cool."

If you could prove to me that EVERY SINGLE BULLDOG EVER BORN would 100% have EVERY SINGLE problem you listed, then maybe. However, you cant. My dog alone (plus most of his family) has proven this.
And no I don't think my dog "looks cool", in fact there are times I think he's rather ugly and disgusting but he is a great dog.

Quote:

its hard not to pity them and be angered by man's breeding science experiment

Never once have I pitied a Bulldog based purely on the fact it is a Bulldog. The only dogs I have ever felt sorry for were ones who had irresponsible owners and allowed them to suffer.

Quote:

Breeding for exageration is a cruel thing and a betrayal to the breed's authentic type, however are all modern bulldogs really bred for exageration? Do they all suffer from structural problems?

In a word- No. Not EVERY SINGLE DOG suffers from it.

Glitzie · 10-04-2006, 06:30 PM

Crossfire, Still I love the stuff you put on here! I may not have a Bully, but I love learning about them & passing knowledgeable stuff to my sister. I love her Fury!

I believe all dogs were crossbred somewhere down the line.
It was done to fufill some type of purpose. Whether it be for bull baiting, herd sheep, tracking, lap warmers, etc.
As for diseases? Before my friend got her Yorkie, she asked what breed is least likely to have any type disabilties? Like dysplasia, breathing problems, etc. I told her to research. Every breed has theur problems. You have to research & find the right breeder that breeds for health. Even mixes can have some type of health issues.
I got DaKota & Glitzie(My GSD & my Pug) for free adoption. They are both free of common disabilities for their breeds. I know owners of both breeds who paid top dollar for their dogs & they have serious problems.
Just my thoughts & opinions.

Novel · 10-04-2006, 07:58 PM

Interesting discussion.

Mr C, I haven't said it yet, but welcome to the forum. I welcome your energy, but, our forum is a tad different is that we pride ourselves on the lack of confrontational posts. Perhaps in your newness you had not noticed this, so I'll point it out to you. We are all for discussion and debate, and I hope you enjoy your time here, just spend an extra few seconds typing and be a tad less abrupt.

Now, taking the mod hat off, and stepping off the soap box, I think it is fair to say that all breeds have been changed here and there by man, many changes resulting in prevelance of disease and structural problems.

The companion dog's ancestor, however, was not perfect either. It also suffered here and there from genetic environmental disease. Although I don't have any research to cite, I think we can agree the dog's ancestor was not some sort of super animal.

So, we have bred and manipulated dogs. We've done the same to every domestic animal. IMO, owning or breeding a bulldog ethically and responsibly is the best thing you can do for a breed that has issues. If all the responsible breeders stopped, who would be left to maintain the breed?

With all debate I assume we're working towards not just discussion, but also solution. What is a viable solution? I'd love to hear opinions, but, breeding towards improved health is the only one I see as a real possibility.

Crossfire Bulldogs · 10-05-2006, 04:40 PM

I’ll ignore the attempt at witticism and move on. Speaking of head type I wonder how well the cross breeds would actually do with not only their lack of head but lack of wrinkle and upturn of jaw when taking on a bull? Not that I would ever want to see it occur with any dog as I find the “sport” of old barbaric in nature but, would it not be almost impossible for the dog to keep grip as well as being unable to see since it would have very little wrinkle to prevent blood from flowing away from the face?.

It’s been mentioned that the Bulldog crosses are healthier than the Bulldog and that cross breeding makes for a more solid dog yet I wonder how true this could possibly be when adding so many variations, breeds known for their own health concerns.

Lets look at just two of the breeds most commonly used when creating these “ healthier” Bulldogs.

The Mastiff – Known for several of the health issues listed for the Bulldog but along with those it is a breed also known for Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA), detached or geographic retinal dysplasia, inherited or suspicious cataracts except punctate, Persistent Pupillary Membranes (PPM), lens luxation and subluxation, glaucoma, persistent hyperplastic primary vitreous, and optic nerve colomba. That’s just the eyes, I could go on to others known for the breed but will stop there for now. How does the potential addition of these fairly common health concerns within the Mastiff aid in the production of a healthier Bulldog? By bringing PRA into a breed not known for it? By bringing in the countless other health concerns that the Bulldog isn’t known for?

The American Bulldog - The most prevalent and devastating being Canine Hip Dysplasia (CHD) which can result in Degenerative Joint Disease (DJD). Other issues can include elbow dysplasia, eye disease

10-04-2006, 09:32 AM	#1 (permalink)
mr c Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 12 Rep Power: 0	English Bulldogs: Inhumane/Cruel breeding experiment or lovably flawed? If you look at the old pictures of bulldogs throughout history you'll see an animal very different from today's English Bulldog. The original dog was athletic, hardy, and of stable but imposing demeanor. This was a utility dog for the bullbait as well as a guardian for the home. After bullbaiting was banned the original bulldog began to die out but was "saved" by fanciers of breed. Once it began to enter the show ring man's selfish desire for exagerated characteristics tookover. Today's bulldog has an abnormally large head that makes regular birth almost always impossible. Bulldogs cannot always mate either as they can overheat. They have hip problems, breathing problems, longevity problems.. here's a list of issues common to bulldogs: Over heating, heat exhaustion, heat stroke, excessive panting or barking Bulldogs can actually cause edema (swelling) to their throats and larynx causing severe respiratory distress, Brachiocephalic Syndrome, the hypoplastic trachea is excessively narrowed even to the point of collapsing (usually as wide as a pencil in adult dogs), cherry eye, Keratitis Sicca, Entropion/ Ectropion, Ectopic cilia/Dystichia, what would be considered "awful" hips on almost any other breed will be acceptable on a bulldog, Luxating patellas, Ingrown or corkscrew tails can become a serious problem, seasonal flank alopecia, yeast growing in the excessively wrinkled skin, and heart murmurs. Its a wonder this dog exists. When it does exist it has a very limited lifespan, some dogs never reaching 6 but they usually live between 6-10 years old. Is what we did to the noble bulldog fair and humane? Was breeding for exageration a cruel thing to do to the English Bulldog? No doubt they're lovable animals but its hard not to pity them and be angered by man's breeding science experiment. Thoughts? Crib and Rosa, old english bulldogs.
mr c Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 12 Rep Power: 0

10-04-2006, 10:31 AM	#4 (permalink)
Crossfire Bulldogs Sourmug Mom Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Snuggled Between The Snorts & Snores. Posts: 7,844 Blog Entries: 3 Rep Power: 282	I could only echo the words of judge Elizabeth Hugo so I'll simply repost her original article titled "What have we done to our breed?" Originally published in the Bulldogger June 2003 edition - Number 104. How many times have we heard this? Anywhere from breeders of other breeds who don't quite understand some of the issues we go through, to the media who question our "true motives" for perpetuating the suffering inflicted by our stubborn adherence to the Standard, to a few enterprising breeders here and abroad who have strived to "make this breed better" or to bring it "back to its former glory" by crossing existing bulldogs with breeds such as Mastiffs, bullmastiff, American Bulldogs, Olde English, you name it. Scariest of all is the Weiss Kennel Club's backing of a scheme of a former Bulldog breeder to make the breed "as it was meant to be" by cross breeding pure Bulldogs with Old English and/or American Bulldogs (not sure which one, either way, it is appalling to me and should be to everyone who loves this breed as it is now). Strangely enough, these people are not at all recreating the Rose and Crib style dog of old, but have merely created nothing more than a generic bull-breed mix. (If they read their history, they would know that in order to get back to the Bulldogs of the pre-1860's they would have to downsize quite a bit, but that probably wouldn't appeal to those interested as much as the dogs advertised as weighing well over 100 pounds.) In these days of "cock-apoos, peke-a-poos, "Labradoodles" and even Miniature Bulldogs, what's another man made breed? That's really all these new bull-breeds are. It's another way to profit off a public hungry for something "new," or to benefit from our breed's wild popularity. Many of these breeders advertise their dogs as "healthier versions of the broken down modern English Bulldog." So, back to the above question. The answer is quite simple. "What have we done to our breed?" Not much. Oh, we have improved it quite a bit, but we certainly have done nothing to this breed maintenance of a breed that has remained virtually unchanged since the type we see today was "stamped" in the late 1800's. Certainly, we can look at things such as modern nutrition and techniques for better conditioning and 100 more years of breeding selection to make up for the subtle difference in style and substance between then and now, but when we look back over the last century, we see dogs that were first visualized and then realized by a very dedicated group of fanciers. The bottom line: The dogs we all love today are pretty much what the early club members had in mind. (I'm sure those fanciers would have something to say about the over all lack of some absolute necessitates for type such as true top line, front ends, tail set and the troubling lack of any massive jaw size, length and sweep which is rampant these days in America and the general over all lack of truly grand head type, but they dealt with these issue back then, too, and I am referencing show dogs. Pet quality has and always will run the gambit between truly poor to very good.) The biggest complaint of the "anti-bulldog" movement is that we (modern breeders) have created a breed of dog which is on the edge of extinction, either by the breeding/whelping difficulties, the exaggerated conformation, the breathing difficulties, the aggravating immune-related disorders, and so on and so on.... A brief history of our breed is that it was once a fierce little fighting dog that almost went extinct after the 1835 "Act" which banned the dog-baiting sports until a group of men gathered together to save it. The Bulldog Club was formed in good part to preserve the type as they knew it, to maintain purity from that point forward. The Pug crosses of a decade or so prior had been quietly swept under the rug and some early ardent fanciers denied it all together. While some strains remained pure, the strains with the cross ultimately influenced the final product, the "Missing Link" as it were between the Crib/Rosa types and the modern type. Likely the most important goal was to prevent the importation and cross-breeding of Spanish-breed bulldogs that weighed well over 100 pounds. This was a breed that was totally English and they were bound and determined to keep the breed pure. From Farman's "Monograph" of 1899: "It was in the fitness of things, therefore, that The Bulldog Club should have come into existence in a public house, the Blue Post, Newman Street, Oxford Street, London. At this place, it was that one night in 1874 a few very hardened admirers of the breed met together, earnest in their intention to save the "pot-house dog" from gradual extinction, as well as the threatened invasion of the Spanish Bulldog under the generalship of Mr. Frank Adcock. It is interesting to note that the very fact of the dog's association saved the breed from becoming a basatard race and preserved it from the impending introduction into its veins of blood of the Spanish Milk-cart dogs. "The present club was started on the 13th of April, 1975, at a time when a determined attempt was being made by the gentleman already named (Adcock) and Mr. Dawes to "enlarge" the Bulldog from its average size to one of a weight of 100-120 lbs. Although the dog was mainly in the hands of certain class, still its patrons were true fanciers and as jealous of the preservation of the purity of its blood as the patrons of any more fashionable breed. As to the suggested crossbreeding, they would have none of it, it was a case of English for England, and sheer self-defiance the few ardent fanciers banded themselves together and reconstituted the old Bulldog Club, which existed some years earlier, but for a very short time only. And from an earlier book, the Cynographia Britannia of 1800: "The Bulldog is in height about 18 inches and weighs about thirty-six pounds...." The old Bulldog of England was not a large dog an it is important to remember that in discussing the purity of "our" Bulldogs compared to the newer created bull breeds, or even the older American Bulldog whose breeders claim it to be purely descended from the old English Bulldogs. The Standards were written, with Philo Kuon's coming in 1865, Jacob Lamphier's "Properties and Points" coming out in Vero show's Book of the Dog in 1879 and The Bulldog Club's (England) official version in 1875. That is a condensed history, but it is important to know it as a Bulldog lover of any type. So, back to the old questions at the beginning of this article. Well, what is interesting to me and is the point of this article in the first place, is that the health woes we experience today were just as common 100+ years ago. It really flies in the face of those who claim we are going to destroy the breed if we don't crossbreed them and fast! I found the following passages in some of my favorite old books and thought them to be of interest. From A.G. Sturgeon's Bulldoggdom 1919, under the heading "Whelping Troubles": "....Recently (for the last 2 or 3 years) in the Manchester District, fanciers have collectively found that a practical and skillful Veterinary Surgeon has amazingly reduced the mortality in whelping by the Caesarian operation. the percentage of loss, both of puppies and their dams, is exceedingly small, and I feel, that in the interests of the breed, I should put it on record." Same book has another passage under "Blister on Feet": "Those red bulging between the toes of many Bulldogs are extremely painful to the dog and very often the cause of bitter disappointment to the owner." From Bulldogs and ALL About Them by Henry St. John Cooper (around 1910): "For follicular mange I can offer no suggestions for treatment, except the foregoing, which may or may not be effective, but at any rate is well worth the trial" (he had previously described treatment for sarcoptic mange). "Eczema if often mistaken by the novice for mange." From the rewrite of Bulldogs and ALL About Them by F. Barrett Fowler (1925): "I remember at a certain show, a lady gave a special prize to the Bulldog with clean ears. The prize was not awarded, for out of the twelve dogs exhibited not one had clean ears. Canker is very often caused in the first place by neglect. The wax and dirt are apt to stop the hearing and make the dog appear deaf." There are many more excepts in the old dog books to the Bulldog health concerns. Even the tail issue was a hot topic at the turn of the century. Funny how the breed had the same conditions it has now and is surprisingly still around and thriving in numbers (which in reality is not at all a good thing). For the anti-Bulldog movement, this should be food for thought. The breed is still around after all this time. And we didn't have to crossbreed them to do it. Our breed (like so many others) has its own particular health issues. Some are quite unique to them alone, some are common among similar bracecephalic breeds and some are just going to happen, regardless of the type of dog it is. And, most important, not every Bulldog suffers these issues. That should always be remembered. We should be on guard, however. There already seems to be one Kennel Club in the world out to change the breed. And the sponsor claims to be making the breed healthier by crossbreeding it. We need to be aware of the health problems in our breed and we really need to correct them. It's very possible. And thanks to the efforts of the BCA and others involved in the breed, ignorance is no longer an excuse (not that is ever should have been). There are many Bulldogs that enjoy healthy, normal and lengthy lives, by any breed's standards, and many of them are the finest show dogs. It must be the goal of every breeder to add health to their overall breeding goals. After all, the mix bull-breed breeders are catering to those who want a Bulldog, but don't want the health problems. It has been going on for too long that people accept the preventable problems as "normal for the breed." There is nothing NORMAL about a dog that struggles to breath through tight nostrils and narrow trachea. In this day of anti-dog legislation and anti-dog breeder in general, it would behoove us all, not to mention the dogs themselves, to make a very aggressive stand against the Bulldog health issues that seem shadow our breed at every turn. Elizabeth Hugo By the way, Crib and Rosa are described very well here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English_Bulldog Notice their height and weight? I find it interesting that some breeders of the "new" breeds stemming from the Bulldog believe and scream from the rooftops that their breeding back to the days of Crib and Rosa with their overly large dogs.
	__________________ Get more out of Global Paw. Check out these great features. Global Paw Book Club -- Art Classes -- Woof Review I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~ Gerry Spence As a member of Global paw staff my opinions are not necessarily those of the website or the owner. Last edited by Crossfire Bulldogs : 10-04-2006 at 10:39 AM.

10-04-2006, 10:45 AM	#5 (permalink)
rmci aka Red Dogs Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: CA Posts: 1,221 Rep Power: 86	Because they were no longer needed for bull baiting, they were changed to fit what the public would want to save the dog. Hmmm, doesn't that make them a "designer" dog from long ago? CalGal- Interesting facts about the Chihuahua & Yorkshire. Thank you for sharing
	__________________ The reason a dog has so many friends; he wags his tail instead of his tongue

10-04-2006, 12:20 PM	#7 (permalink)
mr c Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 12 Rep Power: 0	I had trouble recognizing if that article was tongue-in-cheek or not. Its almost like the author could scarcely convince herself of what she was trying to say. The modern English Bulldog or "sourmug" as he should more appropriately be called has been extensively bred for looks with health as an afterthought. Even a dog representing a perfect model of the standard will have health issues from his head type alone. The big "duh" of the article is in its closing sentences... After all, the mix bull-breed breeders are catering to those who want a Bulldog, but don't want the health problems. I think the re-creation of the old bulldog is a great idea so long as they don't get trapped in the same pitfalls the early fanciers of the English bulldog did. They should be breeding for health and athleticism, a stable temperament but one of unwaivering courage; type should definately be secondary. They should NOT be breeding giant 100 lb+ monsters with overly massive heads and smashed muzzles, big versions of the English Bulldog. There's some good breeders trying to do just this, God bless 'em. The author snubs the thought of mixing in outside blood but a few generations ago the bulldog was mixed with pugs. I think anyone with a shred of decency can put politics aside and admit that man has caused great suffering to the bulldog. Whether you believe that the bulldog should be crossed out for health reasons, as I do, or think that by some miracle solid dogs can come from within, the future health of the bulldog should be top priority. Not a dog that "looks cool."
mr c Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 12 Rep Power: 0

10-04-2006, 06:30 PM	#12 (permalink)
Glitzie Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Rutland, MA. Posts: 279 Rep Power: 55	Crossfire, Still I love the stuff you put on here! I may not have a Bully, but I love learning about them & passing knowledgeable stuff to my sister. I love her Fury! I believe all dogs were crossbred somewhere down the line. It was done to fufill some type of purpose. Whether it be for bull baiting, herd sheep, tracking, lap warmers, etc. As for diseases? Before my friend got her Yorkie, she asked what breed is least likely to have any type disabilties? Like dysplasia, breathing problems, etc. I told her to research. Every breed has theur problems. You have to research & find the right breeder that breeds for health. Even mixes can have some type of health issues. I got DaKota & Glitzie(My GSD & my Pug) for free adoption. They are both free of common disabilities for their breeds. I know owners of both breeds who paid top dollar for their dogs & they have serious problems. Just my thoughts & opinions.
	__________________ ~Saving just one will not change the world, but surely will change the world for that dog~ http://www.germanshepherds.com/ubbth...ubbthreads.php

10-04-2006, 10:15 AM	#2 (permalink)
calgal My Yorkster kids! Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: central ca. coast Posts: 6,692 Rep Power: 225	This is a great time to post our dogs backgrounds. I dearly love reading about the dogs as they were when they first started out! Your Bull dogs history is so complex and interesting. I'm certainly glad they did not go extinct, as they have enriched millions of lives and bring smiles to everyone who gazes upon those wonderful faces and beautiful eyes. Now for my babies! My two Yorkies first... http://www.yorkshire-terrier-journal...h/erasse22.htm And my two tiny Chihuahua's who came for the little fox. http://www.thedogplace.com/Reference...ua/history.htm

10-04-2006, 10:16 AM	#3 (permalink)
calgal My Yorkster kids! Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: central ca. coast Posts: 6,692 Rep Power: 225	Came "from" the little fox. Didn't want to sound like they are after the fox.

10-04-2006, 01:45 PM	#9 (permalink)
calgal My Yorkster kids! Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: central ca. coast Posts: 6,692 Rep Power: 225	I think "all" dogs these days are man made, and are of some mixes.

10-04-2006, 07:58 PM	#13 (permalink)
Novel Boxer Mom Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 4,884 Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 216	Interesting discussion. Mr C, I haven't said it yet, but welcome to the forum. I welcome your energy, but, our forum is a tad different is that we pride ourselves on the lack of confrontational posts. Perhaps in your newness you had not noticed this, so I'll point it out to you. We are all for discussion and debate, and I hope you enjoy your time here, just spend an extra few seconds typing and be a tad less abrupt. Now, taking the mod hat off, and stepping off the soap box, I think it is fair to say that all breeds have been changed here and there by man, many changes resulting in prevelance of disease and structural problems. The companion dog's ancestor, however, was not perfect either. It also suffered here and there from genetic environmental disease. Although I don't have any research to cite, I think we can agree the dog's ancestor was not some sort of super animal. So, we have bred and manipulated dogs. We've done the same to every domestic animal. IMO, owning or breeding a bulldog ethically and responsibly is the best thing you can do for a breed that has issues. If all the responsible breeders stopped, who would be left to maintain the breed? With all debate I assume we're working towards not just discussion, but also solution. What is a viable solution? I'd love to hear opinions, but, breeding towards improved health is the only one I see as a real possibility.