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10-05-2006, 03:58 PM
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#31 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: TN
Posts: 277
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Just for a different perspective, ability to some of us trainers is the primary trait we look for. Looks, lineage, pedigree etc are unimportants as long as the dog can do the job it was selected for.
DFrost |
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Beyone Fatigue lies compensatory hypertropy DFrost |
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10-05-2006, 06:00 PM
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#33 (permalink) | |
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Mush Face Lover
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The original American Weim standard was written in 1942. It was revised in 1971. The revisions? to exclude blues and longhairs. Since that obviously does not reflect working ability, it seems that was not the reason for change. I would be interested to see how the GSD standard has changed over the years? Does that reflect ability or simple appearance preference? Or other popular dogs that have jobs, like the Border Collie, Golden Retriever, Larbador Retriever, etc. |
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10-05-2006, 07:26 PM
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#34 (permalink) |
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Rascal
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Midwest
Posts: 466
Rep Power: 53
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Maybe back on topic a little... haha, I just read the title again...
My feelings are that with the right training, any dog could attain the highest levels of any sport, ie: UDX, MX, MXJ, or MH. But not necessarily the "champion" title, ie: CH, MACH, OTCH, or FC; now that I think about what I meant. (warning… long story ahead… there is a point at the end though) I'll use my dog Buzz as an example... my story with Buzz is that he's my come back dog. I don't particularly like to talk about WHY, but it kind of explains why I have such an aversion to compulsion training... I was taught using THE worst methods possible. I was told to force my dog into doing something simply because I said so; it didn't matter if he'd been taught what I wanted previously... I was told to use force to get what I wanted. This escalated when I didn't have off leash control (nor did I have on...) and my dog was fitted with a shock collar. My dog was terrified and I thought I had ruined him for good. When my own dog ran away from me, had no trust in me, and we had no relationship... It had to stop. I stopped going to the place that taught me this, I started learning online and reading everything I could find about a better way to train, and happened upon 'clicker training' which I thought was a godsend. I found a fantastic positive only, clicker training, agility club, who properly taught the foundations necessary for a great agility dog and a wonderful companion, and joined. We started over, I took a six year old to what was formerly known as “Puppy Class” and the rest is history. Long story a little shorter, after two years I entered him for his re-debut. We didn't Q that first time out, or the second, but we had GREAT runs. I had a responsive dog that performed AMAZINGLY and was thrilled to be running. A dog I thought I had ruined was working FOR me and WITH me! I was close to tears… it was a great weekend even though we came home Q-less, I knew we could and would do it someday! A year after that (this year), we got our first Rally Q on our first try with a PERFECT score! Later that year, we got our FIRST Agility Q's (2, on the SAME day!). I was in tears... it was a trial our club hosted and so my instructor and friends were there. It was a fabulous day! A month later, we got our second Rally Q with another perfect score. So, that's the story of my wonder comeback dog. We traveled a rough road together but now there's nothing he won't do for me or I for him. I'm still trying to repay him for what I did to him. He has the heart and the training to be an OTCH dog, but I love to just train and enjoy him. We're going to enter an obedience trial (UKC) for the first time in November and we'll go from there. That said, finally, he could do it and that’s why I feel any dog could. Now maybe I’m wrong in my thinking but, if I had the time/money/effort and desire to get that OTCH, I think we could. SpringerLover- who has apparently become the rambling queen... |
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10-06-2006, 12:52 AM
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#35 (permalink) | |
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Proud mama of 3 weimies!
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Waukesha, WI
Posts: 405
Rep Power: 61
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Quote:
I don't under stand why it was necessary to exclude the blues and longhairs. Unless there were obviouse health issues associated with either type I could understand their reasons better. From what I've read about the Weim is that back in "the day" they used the long coats to retrieve the water fowel and the short coats for the field fowel. As for breed standard I am a firm believer that what is written as the breed standard should reflect the structure the breed should have to complete the tasks it was designed to do. In the genetics world when you would breed a field dog to a show dog you would think that you would have a chance to get a dog that should be able both field and show and excell in both. Logicly you would think yes but geneticly it doesn't quite work that way this is how you get the Nani's of the world that breed and breed and breed until you get the desired result. Don't get me wrong I like Streak BUT she had to do a lot of breeding to get him and IMO he handsome but not perfect and his owner has the $$ to show him every weekend. With that said.... If our standard (or anyone else's for that matter) doesn't properly reflect the proper structure it takes to get that job done then I think that is where the problem lies. After all these dogs were bread to do a certain function before they were ment to be shown... right?! |
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10-06-2006, 05:54 AM
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#36 (permalink) |
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let's work
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I would think you don't want longcoats in the woods , hard to get through the brushes and hard to clean...
Novel: hoe many Weims do the protection work here in the states, they were used to personal protect, too... is that something that is still wanted or looked for in a weim besides their huntingabilities? |
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10-06-2006, 06:16 AM
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#38 (permalink) | |
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Piedmont, SC
Posts: 658
Rep Power: 87
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Quote:
I think heart has a lot to do with it. Some dogs work and compete with their heart and soul...as long as they are adequately built, they will usually beat the pants off of a dog that may be perfectly conformed but doesn't have heart. Functions is not the end-all-be-all to performance. There are some pretty "badly" conformed racers out there that are champions on the track. I also think, there is not always a single "best" conformation. Due to their build, you have greys that run with power, others that have a longer stride and not as much power. Success depends on the track/running surface, training and heart of the dog. Greyhound racing and coursing isn't just about speed...it's about the dog's natural competitiveness and ability to maneuver/jockey for position in a pack. Do they have the courage to push to the front? Do they want to be at the head of the pack or be the first to the lure? I don't care how long you've been judging dogs, there is NO WAY you can see this in the show ring. NO WAY. At one lure practice event they also had a fun/practice conformation event. For giggles I "entered" my NGA greys. It was quite an experience b/c handling is a LOT more difficult than it looks...when the judge looked over my girl Echo, he actually giggled  She's bowlegged in the back, an overbite with crooked teeth, scars here and there, tiny at 49pounds. She's basically a conformation mess...but she came in third at the next lure coursing meet...behind other retired racers. Her "form" might not be anywhere near the AKC standard, but her function is fantastic.  Even our boy Grandpa who's the 118th ALL-Time Winning Greyhound, with 81 wins is nowhere near the breed standard (he happens to be Echo's dad)....so in his case, conformation does not predict success and the standard meant nothing in terms of how well he did his job. when it comes to greys, at least...I honestly believe they should be judged on the field and on the track and not by "looks" in a ring. I've just seen too many different conformations be successful and you can't always tell that by watching them walk or stand. If conformation meets were supposed to pick the best examples of the breed according to the standard, and if the standard is supposed to describe what THE perfect X breed would look like, then every conformation CH. should be outstanding field/performance dogs. While some dogs are multi-titles, I think conformation today is not much more than a beauty contest and sometimes (from talking to show peeps) a popularity contest. |
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Heather and the hounds  Visit our pack at GreyhoundFreaks.com In loving memory of my Bridge Babies: Star, Annie, Casino, Erin ~ kitty Simon ~ fosters Dagger and DV Last edited by KennelMom : 10-06-2006 at 06:21 AM. |
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10-06-2006, 07:30 AM
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#39 (permalink) | ||||
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Mush Face Lover
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KennelMom - IMO, conformation has taken on an importance that it was never meant to have. The lure coursing, hunt tests, etc, are supposed to measure the dog's ability, and the conformation ring was to keep the dog looking like what the standard said, or, there would be very little "breed type" if everyone bred purely for function, which is how many breeds got their start... the best function, that was then assigned a "look" and bred to maintain the look as well as the function.
Anways, as I am also rambling... IMO, conformation should be secondary, or at least not of any more importance then the working titles. That said, I find conformation so much fun, it will always be one of my main focuses. Not everyone likes to show their dogs. I love it! Perhaps as I learn more about the other competitive venues, I will find I love them as well, but for now I compete in them because I believe they are important, and I enjoy the friendly atmosphere. I also agree that drive, or heart, or even what could be called attitude have a great deal to do with a dog's performance. Topper is not conformationally built to be in the field. He is too big, having to carry alot of mass through the field, consuming more energy. His front shoulder angulation is out of balance with his rear, and so he expends more energy moving then a dog with a balanced front and rear. But, he has not only the heart to be a great dog, but he has that special something that makes him able to be my companion, working with me towards our goal. Much like SpringerLover's analogy, you must work with your dog. I've found in my Spirit, who was brought into my home to encourage the working side of my line, has not been able to form that bond with me that we really need. She is still working for herself. She's only 8 months, and I'm sure we'll be able to overcome it. Her drive is incredible, and I love that and will try and add that to my line, but, I do not want to have to work so hard to form that companionship needed, so, say a litter between her and Topper, will be to encourage both the companionship and the drive. I see them as two different things. I love that Whisper is already forming that bond with me and I see her to be very similar to Topper in that respect. She is 8.5 weeks. Quote:
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Many Weims are still used in SAR work as they are great trackers, but fewer and fewer Weims are competing to high levels in obedience. As far as the United Schutzhund Clubs of America, I think there have been a few ScH I and II dogs, maybe even one or two ScH III, but not many. Patricia Riley, (Wehkah, she was the one with the really really long hair at Nationals) does ScH work. If she weren't so far away I would love to train with her. I have a deep interest in ScH, and yes, they were originally bred to do ScH work, like most German dogs, but the club and breeders in the US have not maintained that as an important part of the standard. Wehkah... If you asked 10 people why blues and longhairs were disqualified, you would get ten different answers. Quote:
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I completely understand your journey with Buzz. Congratulations to you for truly caring about the dog, and working together to success. |
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10-06-2006, 10:26 AM
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#40 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 137
Rep Power: 56
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Just a comment...the golden breed club has a thing called the CCA, Certificate of Conformation Accessment. It's not competitive, like in conformation, and from my understanding, judges -the- dog to the standard...not the other dogs in the ring. Very interesting idea and it seems to be catching on well...on the golden database there are around 50 or so dogs listed with it (....and probably many unlisted dogs)...and interestingly, few of those are conformation CH's.
http://www.grca.org/cca/default.htm There are definately some big parts of conformation that 'make up' the breed...and if you were only breeding for the ability you might not still get those traits... I saw some irish setters a few weeks back that I thought were just really red goldens...they had very wide muzzles...and were quite stocky...a breed should at least be recognizable! GoldenPup |
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10-09-2006, 01:55 PM
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#45 (permalink) |
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 539
Rep Power: 58
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You all have good points people think there dogs look good for certain things they do......
EX: People who show there weims ONLY like the more refined look, skinney, small boned, etc. Where people who only hunt there weims want the musclar, big boned, tough looking weims. I prefer they weims that look more like there supposed to, not so refined that if they fall they look like they are going to snap there chicken legs in half!!!  Well this is just my opinion.... Lauren |
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 Lauren |
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