Titles and Championships: Can any dog do it?

Novel · 10-05-2006, 05:50 AM

This last weekend I was at a hunt test/ratings test, and we all got together on Saturday evening and compared our dogs structurally. It's a great group of people that I chum with and we can actually take criticism from one another, something you don't often see.

Either way, we had show breeders, field breeders and those in between in attendance. We compared a pointer (field-bred), Weims (both show and field bred) and a GSP (field bred), for a couple different reasons. The field breeder had always bred for field ability and knew very little about structure, especially what we would term correct "show" structure. We also compared all of the field bred dogs to see if there was a similarity in their structure that allowed them to run as they do. It was really, really interesting.

First we looked at all sorts of Weims, since it was mostly Weims in attendance. In the show ring it has become very common to see a dog that is straight in the front, and angulated in the back, however, that makes a very nice picture, but they can't move. Too much drive in the back, not enough reach in the front. We looked at a few Weims that were great field dogs, as well as the GSP and Pointer, and we thought they would be angulated in front as well as in the back, to give them alot of movement ability, but we were wrong. They were balanced, being the same angulation in the front as in the back, however, they were all very straight in the front and rear.

So we debated, is balance really more important than angulation, or does drive push a dog that may not be everything structurally? If you bred a dog with good angulation and good drive, would it beat the straighter field bred dogs, or is there something else that we're not bringing into the equation?

But there is more. A fellow dog breeder, that was not in attendance, as she only shows, had made the comment to one of the field guys that any dog can get an MH (Master Hunter) but it takes skill to breed a good show dog.

Another person in a differnet situation made the comment that any dog can get an OTCH, as its all about training.

I have to say I don't agree. The top level titles in all sports are simply not attainable by any dog, no matter the training. Not every dog can be an OTCH, MACH, CH, VST, UD, or MH quality dog.

I'd like to hear comments before I continue...

***Cassiepeia*** · 10-05-2006, 06:50 AM

Although I've never participated in any of the sports (yet

), I have to say I agree with you Julie.
Of course the training (and the handler) is very important, but dogs do differ and not all dogs are cut out for competition. I know my little guy, even in his younger days, would never have made it in obedience...even though there are Chi's competing in that very sport (as well as agility and jumping...I might add).

It's true that any dog can do the basics (some taking longer than others) but I think competition level...from a spectators standpoint at least...is a different thing entirely and takes a special dog (thankfully there are plenty of those 'special' dogs out there).

Cass.

Spiritus · 10-05-2006, 07:08 AM

I don't know about the MACH's and super-high levels of performance/working titles, but, any dog CAN get it's CH if the owner has the $$$ to do it. I've seen it done.

My handler had a dog to show a few years back that was not a good representation of her breed. She was just not a conformationally nice dog. The contract her owner had said that she HAD to get her CH title. Period. No considerations for if she grew up to be a bad representation of her breed.... let's face it, sometimes even the nicest puppies don't grow up to be the nicest adults. The poor owner spent thousands of dollars, and it took almost two years of showing almost every weekend, but the dog DID get her CH, and then, since she had her CH and was now considered "breeding worthy", she was bred.

I am sure that things happen like this in the performance world too. If someone has enough money to spend and is willing to spend years working on things, yes, they COULD get titles. Like I said, maybe not MACH's or OTCH, but even a bad tempered dog could get a Utility title with enough training, time, and money.

GSD · 10-05-2006, 07:11 AM

well there's a lot that could go into this.

Quote:

So we debated, is balance really more important than angulation, or does drive push a dog that may not be everything structurally? If you bred a dog with good angulation and good drive, would it beat the straighter field bred dogs, or is there something else that we're not bringing into the equation?

I think balance is always most impt. some angulation can be beneficial, but with my breed GSD's its taken to an extrememe. Yeah they look pretty in a ring, but last time I saw a dog trotting all day it didn't have extreme angulation, and I see plenty of show gsd's tired after 10 minutes of ring running. Probably has more to do with conditioning, but they look week in their trot to me, not like I envision a working dog.

Quote:

But there is more. A fellow dog breeder, that was not in attendance, as she only shows, had made the comment to one of the field guys that any dog can get an MH (Master Hunter) but it takes skill to breed a good show dog.

I think there is some truth to that comment, as I've seen plenty of dogs in our area of training that don't even belong on the field, but they have titles, they got them from somewhere under some judge under some pretty suspect conditions. As for taking "any" dog and training it to a high level?? I'd have to disagree with that, it takes drive, it takes nerve, it takes phyiscal attributes to do that, and not even close to most dogs have enough of all three to reach a high level.

As for the skill to breed a good show dog?? Not really sure what this person means by that? I see plenty of "quality" show breeders breeding pretty dogs and nothing more, and yet they're at the top of the game making tons of money. Is it because of their skill, or is it because of their rep and politics, and a little luck that their dogs "look" is what is desired by people at that time??

I love picking up books on GSDs from their development, and then watching them change, the gsd's took a big change in the later 70's and 80's, and not for the better IMO, although i'll never see the ones from before that except in descriptions and pictures. Somehow I don't think they suddently became physically inept in during that time that such extreme angulation was needed to "move". Why was the more balanced look abandoned in the show ring, when those that worked the dogs in the field had dogs with a more balanced look for centuries?? (not strictly gsd's here) Why aren't these dogs with the extreme angulation out there doing the work the other dogs used to do??

Battles between working and show breeders have been going on for a long time. I'm reading the book by Stephanitz now and its funny to read what he was saying back in the early 1900's concerning the GSD. Same stuff a hundred years ago as today.

britishbandit · 10-05-2006, 07:20 AM

Hmmm. That's a toughy. While I can agree that breeding titled hunters would likely give more prospects for continuing the trend, I can see that any litter can be diverse, and may not turn out as planned. Same goes for show dogs. Does every dog in a litter of hunting or show parents become one of those, not always. A lot of times even breeding two show dogs with CH's down the line may only produce one or two show prospects, sometimes none. And I'd have to think it would be the same for the hunting titles. Could a show line possibly produce a puppy that could obtain a MH? I think it is possible. Even if the liklihood is lower. And could two dogs bred with MH titles produce a show prospect? Sure they could, no matter how unlikely it might seem.
What about breeding two dogs, one with MH titles and one with conformation titles? Is it possible to get some of each as prospects for either in a litter? Is it also possible that they might not get prospects for any of them? There are just too many variables, and too much left to chance.
As for gaining titles, the possibility is there. Could puppies born to two dogs bred with no titles down the line be capable of getting titles? Hey, ya just never know.
Do I think any dog can get a MH, or confomation wins, of course not. But determining which dogs to breed to get specific things, I do think that it's impossible to predict on an entire litter. How would you even go about determining which pup at that age would be suited and able to obtain that MH? Sure, the angulation may be perfect, but does it have that "drive"? You'd have to hold onto those pups a while and work with them to find out for sure.

mrsgrubby · 10-05-2006, 07:47 AM

I think any dog can be trained, but not any dog can be trained to compete in the highest levels of field work and obed work. Many dogs just don't have the personality and disposition for it.

Jasmine is a registered Rottweiler. I had visions of doing upper levels of obed. with her, but that will NEVER happen. Her personality is just not suited to being in a situation with many dogs and the chaos that comes with going to events. It would be a BAD combination.

Now what if the opposite was true. What is she had the best personality, showy, confident, but she structurally was not the best? Her personality would be ok for attending the event, but with enough events, could she win? I don't know?

With that said, personality, disposition is a MUST, and I would think the structure is too. for both showing and working dogs.

However, the other question is can all working dogs show and can all showing dogs work? Well you already answered that, no they can't, yes they should!

D.Schäferhund · 10-05-2006, 08:07 AM

Here are some observations from
Eberhard Trummler(Hunde ernstgenommen, 2004):

"We expect from our dogs, that they have a "good angulation" of their limbs.these dingos don't have it. but when they run their circles, then you see what this "bad angulation" is worth. The angulation between the single bones is whide open, shockabsorbs much better then it would be possible with a smaller angulation.The advantage out of this straight anglulation is that you have much more groundcoverage and more ease in the movement, with open anglulation the shockabsorbing does not reduce the groundcoverage..." (p.125)

"Every form of the build of the body can do best, if the build of the front and the hindlegs are in harmonie and need to be compatible with the buid of theback. and you equally important is: You ned to ask, to wich work should this body be adapted...(p.127)

"A real German shepherd needs to be able to jump. So intelligent breeders, that were under the lead of the smart and admirable H.v. Steffanitz,took to the "Froggertrick"
They got a double win out of this: For one they angulated the Backbones after the spiralspring prinziple, to get the back legs in jumpingposition, second they made him a little lower in the rear and elevated the forehand , so it can work better when it comes to slower paces. this way you got a nice overall picture.You can say, that this is a very successful "improvement" of nature.

..... I have a nother thought, that i allready posted: the legs alone don't do it. It is the spine that is above the Legs(...), It's function is to connect Front and raer, and you should take that more in concideration than it was used to be." (p.144/145)

This is somuch for the angulation...
Meaning a showdog does not need to be angled like a dog that works...and often what is not called pretty might be the better working body.
Prime example for that is the German shepherd, where the breedstandard got disregarded and the "pretty look" of the hyena like back got in style, wich leads to a cripled dog that can't (physically alone) do the job (regardless of the bred out drives,too)

I am not too familliar with other breeds but I am sure things like that happen there, too.

to the part of everydog can get a title... well it depends on what you run for, but no not everydog can and you can't make everydog, of course a lot of them you can push so they do it, but the question is :how they do it? Most times it is a missarable picture.
force can do alot, but is this what it needs for a good breedingdog, a dog that needs to be forced to do the job and does not have the natural need/drive to do it?
These dogs can certainly be titled but should they?
and as i said before some dog's don't do it, regardless of skills.

Novel · 10-05-2006, 08:12 AM

What happens when you breed top field dogs to top show dogs? Do you get a great show and field dog? No, traditionally you get a dog that can show and do field, but is not great at either... Why?

and my friend, who is all field bred Weims, asked a very difficult question. What is a standard? Is it a written description of what the breed should look like physically? Shouldn't that coincide with their actual working ability structure? Why does it not? Or does it?

D.Schäferhund · 10-05-2006, 08:14 AM

Why? because you follow differnt goals!

the breedstandards are appearantly out for interpretation even the angulations are up for discussion and judged like the judge feels like it. for me it is shocking what the AKC has as a breedstandard for a GSD and what runs arround in the ring. Missinterpretation? I don't know? More bowing to a need of fashion...

Novel · 10-05-2006, 08:20 AM

No, I don't think you understood my point D.

For example, a top field Weim stud was bred to a top show bitch. The result was mediocre dogs. They were not exceptional hunters or show prospects. They were mostly pets. This is not the first time that this type of breeding has been done, but the results are usually the same. Why?

britishbandit · 10-05-2006, 08:33 AM

Maybe taking a little bit of both parents, and not one much more so than the other.

SpringerLover · 10-05-2006, 08:43 AM

*Trying to gather my thoughts*

Breeding the 'perfect' conformation dog does not mean that dog is the best representation of it's breed in my eyes. Structure is important, yes, but I'm a firm believer in "form follows function" as silly as that may sound. What good does breeding the prettiest dog who has no desire to do what it was bred for get us? Maybe it gets some people the satisfaction that they're doing something positive for the breed. But what's the 'perfectly structured' dog gonna do?

I lay pretty far to the field end of things. I want a nicely balanced dog with drive and work ethic but who passes all health tests with flying colors.

The one difference I really see between FC/CH/OTCH/MACH money can buy three of those titles. FC (don't know about herding or earthdog) is probably 80% on breeding, 10% on the judge and 10% on training and molding that instinct and work ethic that is bred into a dog.

Just an observation from my own dog(s) and those of others. There is a DISTINCT difference in the temperament and overall attitude of field and show bred ESS. My show/field cross is THE most fun dog to train and compete with. She's just different. There is another lady I talk to who also has a direct cross (except hers is an FC with a CH, where mine is a hunting companion with a CH) and says the same thing. There's a little extra spark in them that you can't find in either variety (or we haven't yet).

Good or bad? Makes me think of the original springer. Makes me think that's why the dog was bred and loved so much. Both ends of the spectrum have gone too far, in my opinion. Very few are taking the time, effort, and money to bring back the qualities of our breed that once made it that.

Spiritus · 10-05-2006, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Novel

What happens when you breed top field dogs to top show dogs? Do you get a great show and field dog? No, traditionally you get a dog that can show and do field, but is not great at either... Why?

This is the problem that we regularly see in sporting breeds. Two completely different "types" of the same breed. People who breed for field dogs have an idea of what makes a perfect field dog. People who breed for conformation breed for what makes a good conformation dog. There is too much of a division.

In Belgians, we see that division in working line Malinois vs. show line Malinois. In focusing on the high drive and other things needed to work, breeders loose focus on how the breed should look.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Novel

and my friend, who is all field bred Weims, asked a very difficult question. What is a standard? Is it a written description of what the breed should look like physically? Shouldn't that coincide with their actual working ability structure? Why does it not? Or does it?

A standard is a written description of how the breed should look physically. It is "supposed" to be written in a way that form follows function. If you have a great conformation dog structurally, you SHOULD have a great field dog. But because of the division between "field" and "show", or "working" and "show", this is not the case anymore in some breeds. It's sad. Breeders MUST consider BOTH in their breeding programs.

I have Belgians. They are a herding breed. A breed that is supposed to be able to work all day with the sheep and be at home with their owners, guarding the farm at night. A division we often see is that breeders sometime breed down drive to make Belgians better all-around family companions. I don't know if I agree with that. If someone wants a Belgian and has done their research, they should know that these are higher drive, working dogs that need something to do. If they want a lap dog, they should get a Peke.

mulroony · 10-05-2006, 08:57 AM

Novel - To me breeding those different lines (for lack of a better word) of the breeds and expectig to get a show/field dog is like breeding a lab and a poodle and expecting to get the best of both. Any time you breed from two different lines you are gambling as to the traits the offspring would get. This particular litter could have been a statistical fluke, and got few dogs with the positive traits of their parents or it could be that in some way the positive traits are recessive and can only be achieved when both parents present the traits. (Not going to go on any more about genetics since I know you are familar)

That said I do think you can achieve just about anything through training, but I will agree that some dogs just do not have the drive/physical ability to do it. I can train Shelby to run 10 miles (we are at 7, just an example) in a bit over an hour, but I know there is no way I could train a bulldog or our Mackenzie to ever do the same based on physical ability, it would just not be possible.

I do not think drive can be taught (encouraged yes), but you can train a dog to do mimic it pretty well through proper and diligent training. Not every dog would make the best police dog, but I do think you could train just about any dog to do it with enough time. I think we need to remember the reason we do field work with certain breeds is because they have a natural dirve for it that would take a lot of time teach other breeds, which gives there owners little reason to pursue it with those breeds not inclined.

10-05-2006, 05:50 AM	#1 (permalink)
Novel Boxer Mom Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 4,884 Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 216	Titles and Championships: Can any dog do it? This last weekend I was at a hunt test/ratings test, and we all got together on Saturday evening and compared our dogs structurally. It's a great group of people that I chum with and we can actually take criticism from one another, something you don't often see. Either way, we had show breeders, field breeders and those in between in attendance. We compared a pointer (field-bred), Weims (both show and field bred) and a GSP (field bred), for a couple different reasons. The field breeder had always bred for field ability and knew very little about structure, especially what we would term correct "show" structure. We also compared all of the field bred dogs to see if there was a similarity in their structure that allowed them to run as they do. It was really, really interesting. First we looked at all sorts of Weims, since it was mostly Weims in attendance. In the show ring it has become very common to see a dog that is straight in the front, and angulated in the back, however, that makes a very nice picture, but they can't move. Too much drive in the back, not enough reach in the front. We looked at a few Weims that were great field dogs, as well as the GSP and Pointer, and we thought they would be angulated in front as well as in the back, to give them alot of movement ability, but we were wrong. They were balanced, being the same angulation in the front as in the back, however, they were all very straight in the front and rear. So we debated, is balance really more important than angulation, or does drive push a dog that may not be everything structurally? If you bred a dog with good angulation and good drive, would it beat the straighter field bred dogs, or is there something else that we're not bringing into the equation? But there is more. A fellow dog breeder, that was not in attendance, as she only shows, had made the comment to one of the field guys that any dog can get an MH (Master Hunter) but it takes skill to breed a good show dog. Another person in a differnet situation made the comment that any dog can get an OTCH, as its all about training. I have to say I don't agree. The top level titles in all sports are simply not attainable by any dog, no matter the training. Not every dog can be an OTCH, MACH, CH, VST, UD, or MH quality dog. I'd like to hear comments before I continue...

10-05-2006, 06:50 AM	#2 (permalink)
*Cassiepeia* Chihuahua Mum Super Moderator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: NSW, Australia Posts: 8,265 Blog Entries: 9 Rep Power: 282	Although I've never participated in any of the sports (yet ), I have to say I agree with you Julie. Of course the training (and the handler) is very important, but dogs do differ and not all dogs are cut out for competition. I know my little guy, even in his younger days, would never have made it in obedience...even though there are Chi's competing in that very sport (as well as agility and jumping...I might add). It's true that any dog can do the basics (some taking longer than others) but I think competition level...from a spectators standpoint at least...is a different thing entirely and takes a special dog (thankfully there are plenty of those 'special' dogs out there). Cass.
	__________________ Say NO! to animals in pet shops. Rescue a friend instead: Petfinder Get more out of Global Paw. Check out these great features. Book Club ~ Blogs ~ Art Classes ~ Woof Review As a member of Global paw staff my opinions are not necessarily those of the website or the owner.

10-05-2006, 07:08 AM	#3 (permalink)
Spiritus Trust the Force... Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Saskatchewan, Canada Posts: 513 Rep Power: 78	I don't know about the MACH's and super-high levels of performance/working titles, but, any dog CAN get it's CH if the owner has the $$$ to do it. I've seen it done. My handler had a dog to show a few years back that was not a good representation of her breed. She was just not a conformationally nice dog. The contract her owner had said that she HAD to get her CH title. Period. No considerations for if she grew up to be a bad representation of her breed.... let's face it, sometimes even the nicest puppies don't grow up to be the nicest adults. The poor owner spent thousands of dollars, and it took almost two years of showing almost every weekend, but the dog DID get her CH, and then, since she had her CH and was now considered "breeding worthy", she was bred. I am sure that things happen like this in the performance world too. If someone has enough money to spend and is willing to spend years working on things, yes, they COULD get titles. Like I said, maybe not MACH's or OTCH, but even a bad tempered dog could get a Utility title with enough training, time, and money.
	__________________ Spiritus Belgian Shepherds U-CD Can. CH. Shay CD CGN HIC UKC/Can. CH. Trouble, Lexi, Jesse CGN, and youngsters Constantine and Deja .... and coming soon, our Valentine Litter * R.I.P. BOSS CH. Wren, and much loved puppy Tally *

10-05-2006, 07:20 AM	#5 (permalink)
britishbandit Rottweiler Mum Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Windsor, ON Posts: 3,991 Rep Power: 168	Hmmm. That's a toughy. While I can agree that breeding titled hunters would likely give more prospects for continuing the trend, I can see that any litter can be diverse, and may not turn out as planned. Same goes for show dogs. Does every dog in a litter of hunting or show parents become one of those, not always. A lot of times even breeding two show dogs with CH's down the line may only produce one or two show prospects, sometimes none. And I'd have to think it would be the same for the hunting titles. Could a show line possibly produce a puppy that could obtain a MH? I think it is possible. Even if the liklihood is lower. And could two dogs bred with MH titles produce a show prospect? Sure they could, no matter how unlikely it might seem. What about breeding two dogs, one with MH titles and one with conformation titles? Is it possible to get some of each as prospects for either in a litter? Is it also possible that they might not get prospects for any of them? There are just too many variables, and too much left to chance. As for gaining titles, the possibility is there. Could puppies born to two dogs bred with no titles down the line be capable of getting titles? Hey, ya just never know. Do I think any dog can get a MH, or confomation wins, of course not. But determining which dogs to breed to get specific things, I do think that it's impossible to predict on an entire litter. How would you even go about determining which pup at that age would be suited and able to obtain that MH? Sure, the angulation may be perfect, but does it have that "drive"? You'd have to hold onto those pups a while and work with them to find out for sure.
	__________________ "No matter how little money and how few possesions you own, having a dog makes you rich." - Louis Sabin

10-05-2006, 08:14 AM	#9 (permalink)
D.Schäferhund let's work Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Kansas Posts: 1,770 Rep Power: 110	Why? because you follow differnt goals! the breedstandards are appearantly out for interpretation even the angulations are up for discussion and judged like the judge feels like it. for me it is shocking what the AKC has as a breedstandard for a GSD and what runs arround in the ring. Missinterpretation? I don't know? More bowing to a need of fashion...
	Last edited by D.Schäferhund : 10-05-2006 at 08:20 AM.

10-05-2006, 07:47 AM	#6 (permalink)
mrsgrubby Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,476 Rep Power: 142	I think any dog can be trained, but not any dog can be trained to compete in the highest levels of field work and obed work. Many dogs just don't have the personality and disposition for it. Jasmine is a registered Rottweiler. I had visions of doing upper levels of obed. with her, but that will NEVER happen. Her personality is just not suited to being in a situation with many dogs and the chaos that comes with going to events. It would be a BAD combination. Now what if the opposite was true. What is she had the best personality, showy, confident, but she structurally was not the best? Her personality would be ok for attending the event, but with enough events, could she win? I don't know? With that said, personality, disposition is a MUST, and I would think the structure is too. for both showing and working dogs. However, the other question is can all working dogs show and can all showing dogs work? Well you already answered that, no they can't, yes they should!

10-05-2006, 08:07 AM	#7 (permalink)
D.Schäferhund let's work Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Kansas Posts: 1,770 Rep Power: 110	Here are some observations from Eberhard Trummler(Hunde ernstgenommen, 2004): "We expect from our dogs, that they have a "good angulation" of their limbs.these dingos don't have it. but when they run their circles, then you see what this "bad angulation" is worth. The angulation between the single bones is whide open, shockabsorbs much better then it would be possible with a smaller angulation.The advantage out of this straight anglulation is that you have much more groundcoverage and more ease in the movement, with open anglulation the shockabsorbing does not reduce the groundcoverage..." (p.125) "Every form of the build of the body can do best, if the build of the front and the hindlegs are in harmonie and need to be compatible with the buid of theback. and you equally important is: You ned to ask, to wich work should this body be adapted...(p.127) "A real German shepherd needs to be able to jump. So intelligent breeders, that were under the lead of the smart and admirable H.v. Steffanitz,took to the "Froggertrick" They got a double win out of this: For one they angulated the Backbones after the spiralspring prinziple, to get the back legs in jumpingposition, second they made him a little lower in the rear and elevated the forehand , so it can work better when it comes to slower paces. this way you got a nice overall picture.You can say, that this is a very successful "improvement" of nature. ..... I have a nother thought, that i allready posted: the legs alone don't do it. It is the spine that is above the Legs(...), It's function is to connect Front and raer, and you should take that more in concideration than it was used to be." (p.144/145) This is somuch for the angulation... Meaning a showdog does not need to be angled like a dog that works...and often what is not called pretty might be the better working body. Prime example for that is the German shepherd, where the breedstandard got disregarded and the "pretty look" of the hyena like back got in style, wich leads to a cripled dog that can't (physically alone) do the job (regardless of the bred out drives,too) I am not too familliar with other breeds but I am sure things like that happen there, too. to the part of everydog can get a title... well it depends on what you run for, but no not everydog can and you can't make everydog, of course a lot of them you can push so they do it, but the question is :how they do it? Most times it is a missarable picture. force can do alot, but is this what it needs for a good breedingdog, a dog that needs to be forced to do the job and does not have the natural need/drive to do it? These dogs can certainly be titled but should they? and as i said before some dog's don't do it, regardless of skills.

10-05-2006, 08:12 AM	#8 (permalink)
Novel Boxer Mom Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 4,884 Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 216	What happens when you breed top field dogs to top show dogs? Do you get a great show and field dog? No, traditionally you get a dog that can show and do field, but is not great at either... Why? and my friend, who is all field bred Weims, asked a very difficult question. What is a standard? Is it a written description of what the breed should look like physically? Shouldn't that coincide with their actual working ability structure? Why does it not? Or does it?

10-05-2006, 08:20 AM	#10 (permalink)
Novel Boxer Mom Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 4,884 Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 216	No, I don't think you understood my point D. For example, a top field Weim stud was bred to a top show bitch. The result was mediocre dogs. They were not exceptional hunters or show prospects. They were mostly pets. This is not the first time that this type of breeding has been done, but the results are usually the same. Why?

10-05-2006, 08:33 AM	#11 (permalink)
britishbandit Rottweiler Mum Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Windsor, ON Posts: 3,991 Rep Power: 168	Maybe taking a little bit of both parents, and not one much more so than the other.
	__________________ "No matter how little money and how few possesions you own, having a dog makes you rich." - Louis Sabin

10-05-2006, 08:43 AM	#12 (permalink)
SpringerLover Rascal Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Midwest Posts: 466 Rep Power: 51	Trying to gather my thoughts Breeding the 'perfect' conformation dog does not mean that dog is the best representation of it's breed in my eyes. Structure is important, yes, but I'm a firm believer in "form follows function" as silly as that may sound. What good does breeding the prettiest dog who has no desire to do what it was bred for get us? Maybe it gets some people the satisfaction that they're doing something positive for the breed. But what's the 'perfectly structured' dog gonna do? I lay pretty far to the field end of things. I want a nicely balanced dog with drive and work ethic but who passes all health tests with flying colors. The one difference I really see between FC/CH/OTCH/MACH money can buy three of those titles. FC (don't know about herding or earthdog) is probably 80% on breeding, 10% on the judge and 10% on training and molding that instinct and work ethic that is bred into a dog. Just an observation from my own dog(s) and those of others. There is a DISTINCT difference in the temperament and overall attitude of field and show bred ESS. My show/field cross is THE most fun dog to train and compete with. She's just different. There is another lady I talk to who also has a direct cross (except hers is an FC with a CH, where mine is a hunting companion with a CH) and says the same thing. There's a little extra spark in them that you can't find in either variety (or we haven't yet). Good or bad? Makes me think of the original springer. Makes me think that's why the dog was bred and loved so much. Both ends of the spectrum have gone too far, in my opinion. Very few are taking the time, effort, and money to bring back the qualities of our breed that once made it that.

10-05-2006, 08:57 AM	#14 (permalink)
mulroony Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Champaign, IL Posts: 2,100 Rep Power: 116	Novel - To me breeding those different lines (for lack of a better word) of the breeds and expectig to get a show/field dog is like breeding a lab and a poodle and expecting to get the best of both. Any time you breed from two different lines you are gambling as to the traits the offspring would get. This particular litter could have been a statistical fluke, and got few dogs with the positive traits of their parents or it could be that in some way the positive traits are recessive and can only be achieved when both parents present the traits. (Not going to go on any more about genetics since I know you are familar) That said I do think you can achieve just about anything through training, but I will agree that some dogs just do not have the drive/physical ability to do it. I can train Shelby to run 10 miles (we are at 7, just an example) in a bit over an hour, but I know there is no way I could train a bulldog or our Mackenzie to ever do the same based on physical ability, it would just not be possible. I do not think drive can be taught (encouraged yes), but you can train a dog to do mimic it pretty well through proper and diligent training. Not every dog would make the best police dog, but I do think you could train just about any dog to do it with enough time. I think we need to remember the reason we do field work with certain breeds is because they have a natural dirve for it that would take a lot of time teach other breeds, which gives there owners little reason to pursue it with those breeds not inclined.
	__________________ Shelby (CGC), Jackson, Max, & Mackenzie (CGC) - My pups :) Pit Bull &quo