Globalpaw.com Dog Forum » General Dog Discussion » Dog Debate Forum

[Zwolf.Bri]

Currently, there is a ton of controversy over what the true German Shepherd should be. American show-line breeders claim that the overexaggerated angulation is simply them evolving to be able to do the task of herding better. Alsatians are bred lower and much more stocky in the body. West German lines are bred to be quite large and to have quite a bit of angulation in the rear. Czech and DDR lines have minimal angulation in the topline but quite a bit in the hindquarters in comparison to most breeds. So, what is the true German Shepherd?

In Germany, the Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde requires that any German Shepherds bred must have at least a Schutzhund 1 title, have passed OFA with at least an 'a' stamp, and have a Bh title to produce SV registered pups. However, the dogs currently earning VA titles are bulky with large bones and angulation.

Here's the 2004 and 2005 Bundes Siegerschau VA male winner:
VA1 Larus von Batu SchH3 Kkl1
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/pictures/119824.jpg

He's an example of the current "top quality" West German line German Shepherd. But take a look at exactly how much he differs from the last VA1 winner selected by Rittmeister Captain Max Emil Frederick von Stephanitz in 1934:
VA1 Cuno vom Georgentor SchH3 Kkl1
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/pictures/2009.jpg

It's pretty obvious that the American show line German Shepherd isn't what Stephanitz was looking for. The majority of them possess unstable temperaments, little drive, are off balance due to the angulation, and what kind of dog can work if it's sitting on it's hocks? It's obvious Stephanitz also wasn't looking for that bulky look which the West German lines are starting to possess nowadays. I mean, seriously, the first bulky dog to win a Sieger show was in 1948, 12 years after Captain Stephanitz had died. His name was VA1 Harras vom Piastendamm SchH3 Kkl1. That dog also had angulation in his topline. After that, bulk and slight angulation started to win. In 1952, dogs with more tuck-up and more angulation began taking VA wins. Then, in 1955, a dog very similar to what you see in American lines today, VA Alf vom Nordfelsen SchH3, FH Kkl1, took the VA win. In 1958-1962, the four VA winners had flat toplines with little bulk but were still quite large. Then the dogs started getting bulkier again and dogs with no angulation in the topline never won after 1966.

It's obvious the GSD went through quite a few 'styles' even in Germany. So, what is the correct German Shepherd? My guess would have to be one which Max von Stephanitz had chosen as a VA winner. He knew what he was looking for in the breed. It's obvious, judging by the fluctuation of the looks on VA winners after he died, the others didn't. So, should the breed standard be re-written to match the true standard of the German Shepherd dog?

I know some people would think there's too much of a population of dogs who match the current standard. Why not stop the breeding practices now? American show line German Shepherds don't have the correct head set (too collie-like), don't have correct coloring often-times (too dull), have way too much reach and drive, have way too much angulation, have the wrong bite, and have unstable temperaments. Why does the standard allow for that?

"Horand embodied for the enthusiasts of that time the fulfillment of their fondest dreams. He was big for that period, between 24" and 24 1/2", even for the present day a good medium size, with powerful frame, beautiful lines, and a nobly formed head. Clean and sinewy in build, the entire dog was one live wire. His character was on a par with his exterior qualities; marvelous in his obedient fidelity to his master, and above all else, the straightforward nature of a gentleman with a boundless zest for living. Although untrained in puppy hood, nevertheless obedient to the slightest nod when at this master's side; but when left to himself, the maddest rascal, the wildest ruffian and incorrigible provoker of strife. Never idle, always on the go; well disposed to harmless people, but no cringer, mad about children and always in love. What could not have been the accomplishments of such a dog if we, at that time, had only had military or police service training? His faults were the failings of his upbringing, never of his stock. He suffered from a superfluity of unemployed energy, for he was in Heaven when someone was occupied with him and was then the most tractable of dog." -Max von Stephanitz regarding the first German Shepherd registered, Horand von Grafrath

"Take this trouble from me: Make sure my shepherd dog remains a Working dog for I have struggled all my life long for that aim" -Max von Stephanitz on his death bed

"The breeding of shepherd dogs is the breeding of working dogs; and this must always be the aim, or we shall cease to produce shepherd dogs.... In order to have any chances of success at Exhibitions, breeding must be effected on a large scale; which can only be done in a regular Kennel. But breeding on a large scale and in a Kennel is the ruin of all sound shepherd dog breeding. I have already spoken at length of the curse of kennel-keeping. Kennel breeding, however, doubles and multiples the evil, and irrevocably spoils all which comes under its influence. We shall hear more about this in what follows. A large number of dogs can only be kept in a Kennel, but in so doing we heap up injury upon injury, because a large collection of shepherd dogs is a contradiction in terms. It is not possible to breed and keep shepherd dogs in herds, because they only become wild and deteriorate. The shepherd dog will only be taken as a personality; his master must be able to busy himself with him; especially when he is dealing with a young dog; and that is only possible with one or at the most a very few, but never more. Breeding in quantities must always become a curse to the breeder, because it leads him along the wrong path and deprives him of all real joy in his breeding. Finally, it leads - and this is a further and very real danger for breeder and for the race - to breeding for business considerations only. It follows from the name, that this has nothing more to do with the dog-lover, or with the utility of the dog-race, and not even with Sport, which indeed has only been too often advanced as a cloak for such practices. When it comes to breeding for business - which is never effected by dealers, at least not by official dealers -, the dog is only a business commodity and nothing more, and is bred and treated as such. There again, we encounter another danger for the race. The dog is no longer bred from the point of view of his services to the race, but only because he has a certain market value. In other words, the direction of the breed is influenced no longer by the experts, but by the buyers. The buyer, however, is mostly an unsuspecting novice, or else one who knows or cares nothing for the weal or woe of the race as yet. He knows nothing of racial type, nothing of the value of aptitude for work, he often only has an eye for appearances and wishes his dog to be imposing and remarkable, and sometimes even a ruffling swashbuckler.

Dog-breeding must be the work of a dog lover, and cannot be a profession, as is the case with other animals, and a means of acquiring bread and butter. If it once becomes that, then it will be dog-dealing that has nothing more to do with serious dog breeding, but on the other hand, too often has to do with the law. The work of breeding service dogs must, first and foremost, be the work of dog lovers... The dog lover in his breeding aspires after no material and external advantage. He allows himself to be contented with the fact that association with noble, beautiful and gifted creatures, the observation of the phenomena of their lives, and the examination of all that happens in their breedings afford him a whole cycle of pure joys and contentment, and allow him to penetrate further into the secrets and the mysteries of Nature. These joys will repay him, (who indulges his fancy without self-seeking,) for all the sacrifices in money, time and trouble, and even for all failures and disillusions." -Max von Stephanitz

What are your thoughts on this?

[GSD]

absolutely not, it should not be re-written, the people that keep breeding to their own standard, and the judges that are passing these weak ***** dogs with ghosts flying around in their heads, the nerve of a toothpick, and strength of a strawman need to be culled and pulled from the gene pool TODAY. The AKC and its promoting of AKC champions and training the judges that judge GSD's need to be banned, the FCI, should pull their recognition and the SV itself needs to get its head out of its butt and quit bowing to the money that is involved in showing.

[shandoggy1]

To many politics involved in the show world and its all in who you know, or so I've been told by many of breeders who show. I don't think the standard should be re-written and agree with what GSD said. I personally don't care for the American GSD standard though and have always owned the German or chzek line dogs. I like a GSD with a strong back end, not a weak one.

[KennelMom]

I absolutely detest the looks of the American GSD. The last dog show I watched on TV a few weeks ago I think my jaw actually dropped to the floor when they showed the GSD...my husband commented that it's cruel to breed a dog with so much angulation in it that it looks as though it can barely walk. It was actually uncomfortable to LOOK at the dog. IMHO, the American breeders that are doing this should be ashamed of themselves. To me, it's like seeing those HUGE, barrel chested show greyhounds that can't even reach a double suspension gait, the breeders have screwed the dog up so much. (thank goodness there isn't much of that in the ring anymore!)

To me (like my opinion counts for anything here ), a GSD should look like the second pic. If the Germans are starting to angulate their dogs, I guess that breed is out for us. We'll have to go with a malinois or tervuren when we are ready for one.

[Sugardog]

I agree, I don't like the gate of alot of American GSD's because of the angles. It doesn't look natural, it looks uncomfortable and sometimes the dog looks crippled, like the dog in the first pic.

I have an American GSD, but she isn't angled like that. She looks more like the dog in the second pic with a nice flat back. I think her hind quarters are a bit more angled though.

I like the way the Germans do things with their dogs. Their dogs have to pass herding and other evaluations/courses before they are even CONSIDERED for the show ring. The working line comes first before appearance.

If any of you ever get the chace, look up the difference between American bred Irish Setters and Irish bred Irish setters. Because America doesn't use them in the field, the standards are alot "fancier" than those from Ireland.

EDIT:

Here's pics of Rosie, She's 7 months in this pic, she's 9 months now



And here's my most recent, not stacked, but oh well. I'll have to get some better ones of her later today (since it's almost 1:00AM at the moment)

[D.Schäferhund]

No not re written, there are just some (sadly more than just a some) people who need an adittude adjustment!!!

but i hear even in Germany something might be happening.... some try to differ themselves from the SV and i think, didn't get the whole story yet that they want to push back to the workinglines and away from the SV. Will keep my eyes open, Still waiting on an email regarding this rumor!

[Beryl]

My GSD was bred from top show winning pedigree lines here in the US but was not angulated like the "standard". For years I wondered what was "wrong" with my dog because he didn't look like that. (I hadn't visited any of these online dog forums back in 1994.)

[DogLover8]

Originally Posted by KennelMom

I absolutely detest the looks of the American GSD. The last dog show I watched on TV a few weeks ago I think my jaw actually dropped to the floor when they showed the GSD...my husband commented that it's cruel to breed a dog with so much angulation in it that it looks as though it can barely walk. It was actually uncomfortable to LOOK at the dog. IMHO, the American breeders that are doing this should be ashamed of themselves. To me, it's like seeing those HUGE, barrel chested show greyhounds that can't even reach a double suspension gait, the breeders have screwed the dog up so much. (thank goodness there isn't much of that in the ring anymore!)

To me (like my opinion counts for anything here ), a GSD should look like the second pic. If the Germans are starting to angulate their dogs, I guess that breed is out for us. We'll have to go with a malinois or tervuren when we are ready for one.

I agree. The American Standard for the German Shepard is cruel. I would not get German Shepard that was angulated.

The angulation causes some of the hip problems that German Shepards get. I used to have a German Shepard many years ago that had trouble walking because of his bad hips and he was less than a year old. He had other problems too. I felt so bad for the poor dog.

[Sugardog]

It wouldn't suprise me.

Rosie is american bred, but she appears to have more of a German build. She is related to both Atlanta's Mystique and Covy Tucker Hill's Manhattan. Mystique is her 1/8th sister and I haven't yet figured out how Manhattan is related to her exactly, I'm not up to date with my research. Mystique is no where near that angled and she was a champion. I'll post a pick in just a second.

EDIT:

Ok, here we go. Scanned from a German Shepherd magazine

[Kuchi]

I do not like the angulation of the American ones. It doesn't look natural to me.
An unrelated question: Why are German Shepards stacked like that? The back legs aren't parallel.

[Sugardog]

It's kind of silly, but they're trying to capture the look of the dog "in motion" like if they were running. Thats what I was told by a breeder when I asked the same question.

[D.Schäferhund]

it is not just the back they deformed, look at the chest, almost looks like goose, with that high head and poked out chest!

there went more wrong that the angulation! They should call them american shepherds. To me it is just a disgrace they do with that breed and i don't want the name be the same!
If something needs changed than the name!
and again still the attitude adjustment!

[BCNTC]

I love Von Stephanitz real GSD, honestly he would be rolling in his grave if he could see what has happend to his beloved breed, everything he started right on his deathbed that cannot happen or the dogs would cease to be a GSD, has happened, and therefore the dogs we laim to be GSDs according to Von Stephanitz are not so.

[Kuchi]

That is a little weird Sugardog. thanks.

[Doglover1988]

Honestly I hate the look of a american german shepherd and don't understand why they would breed them this way. I actually cringed when I watched my last dog show on t.v. as the dog walked past. It was walking down on it's hocks and it just didn't look natural. I definatly prefer the german lines.