Should some dog biting be tolerated?

[Dogsareme]

Unlike humans dog have more limited ways to communicate.
Biting is a big way they communicate.
Sometimes dogs Snap to get someone, something, or another dog to stop whatever they are doing.
Other times dogs get in fights with other dogs and they will be really noisey and you will see alot of biting, but when it's all said and done no one has a scratch on them. This is because they did not actually want to hurt the other dog, just get their point across.

Now what if it came down to your dog. And your dog can be fine with everything and loves everyone. If it bit someone even once would you put it down?

I think it's unfair dog bites are not tolerated even once. What if we where PTS becasue we slapped someone, or spanked one of our children and that was taken as non tollerable. Yes they are aggressive moves, but is the reason behind them not understandable?

Take for instance someone had a fear aggressive dog and it was during a training exercise and the dog was doing great at 2 feet next to a new person, so you decide the dog is doing so good you want to see if he could do one foot. So you move him to one foot and the stranger accidently sneezes so the dog turns and bites the strangers leg and runs. The stranger only has a small puncutre hole, nothing major and its only bleeding minorly. Should the dog be PTS?

Take a non-fearful or non-aggressive dog(a dog with no problems), say this is your dog. Your dog was out at the park playing fetch with you when someone out of the blue comes up to your dog and grabs him rougly by the collar to take the ball away because that is his dogs ball so he is reaching in your dogs mouth for the ball. Your dog drops the ball and bites the persons hand and draws blood then runs back to you. Should the dog be PTS? The other person would view your dog as aggressive even though your dog has never bitten anyone before.

What about a dog that is guarding his food. A friend is in your house and your dog is eatting something and your friend accidently walks to close to your eating dog and your dog bite her fairly hard. Your dog is not food aggressive with you, but you never know how they might precieve a stranger. Should he be PTS?

I just dont' think it's right that any little bit from a dog not be tolerated. I think the dogs history, past issues, and reason for the biting should all be looked at before any decision is made. If it's a fearful dog and the owner is doing what needs to be done to get the dog social as long as the bite was not a serious injury I think it should be over looked(and as long as it's not a everyday occurance). If the dog the dog bit out of insucurity (stranger) thats like me or you punching someone who just came out of the blue and tried to grab our purse...and once again as long as it's not a serious bite I think it should be tolerable.

If a dog just suddenly mauled someone and killed them... that's a different story. Not something I would tolerate. Even if it was something as unfortunate as the person came into our backyard. It would just be hard to trust that dog again if that was the situation. Just like a murderer... you really don't know if you can trust them.

I really think the cicumstances leading up to the biting should be looked at before any conclusion be drawn such as Putting the dog to sleep. Expecially if those circumstances are more or less understandable. Dogs should have more rights.

I have always liked this one story I heard some time ago, kind of helped to put things into a whole new prespective :

A woman was sitting on a bus bench waiting for the bus just minding her own business listening to her MP3 she found earlier during the day. Then a man came and sat down beside her looked at her and then grabbed her hair and pulled it. She screamed and asked him to stop. So he grabbed the back of her bra and snapped it, so she yelled at him and asked him just what the heck he thought he was doing. He then grabbed her leg and pulled it, pushed her and then took her MP3 and sat down. The lady was stunned, went up to the man and slapped him, grabbed back her MP3 and started walking away. As she started walking away people started yelling at her and telling her she was bad and that was a mean thing to do(as they consoled the man), her friend who she trusted came and grabbed her by the shirt and threw her into the back of her car, yelling at her the whole time. Next thing she knew she was at the hospital and a big needle was being put into her. She never woke up.

So who really did the wrong in the story? The lady or the man? I'm sure most of us would agree the man did. But this is a scenario that happens often and almost daily to dogs. It does not always go as far as slapping(biting, or snapping), and those are the very tolerable ones, but guarantee there would of been yelling(growling, yipping).. at which point most owners would start yelling at the dog, not the person being mean.


What is your opinion? Do you think some biting should be tolerated? or do you think any dog who bites for any reason should be PTS?

[Beryl]

As with everything, it depends.

I don't think biting should be tolerated but that doesn't apply to a dog who is being abused.

If a dog bites and the owner reports the incident because they want to have the dog put down, the dog should be evaluated in another setting before any other action is taken.

I firmly believe that dogs are very similar to children. I've seen children get away with misbehaving while young and the parents even laugh at the misbehavior. The same parents then wonder why the child acts up and won't obey them after they get older. Well... Duh, you created that monster!

Dogs are the same way. They will respond to owner behaviors and you must start right away with training and be consistent. If you tolerate them snapping at you when they are young, they've learned that biting is an effective way to get what they want.

Yes, I have little dogs now but they are even worse because they are often allowed to get away with stuff -- like little kids. I don't think I'd ever let my dog -- I don't care how big he is -- bite me. I've had a 85-90 lb GSD and he would never had nipped at me. He licked and mouthed me but those teeth stayed behind those lips!

My min pin is aggressive -- like most terriers and it didn't take long for him to learn that biting is not the answer. His former owners said that they could never touch his feet. I'm like "What the ...?" He is my dog and I need to be able to touch him. I play with every part of his body -- his feet, ears, legs. I've even checked out his private and washed it off!

The beautiful thing about dogs is that Milan is right about them living in the "here and now". They can start all over with a new owner and live a wonderful life. This is why I say -- don't put down a dog after s/he has bitten someone in a particular setting. Give him/her a second or even a third chance.

[Rivsky]

I think it depends on why the dog lashed out in the first place and how severe the actual bite was (or if it was more like an attack). If it was a totally unprovoked attack and the dog gave no prior warning (low growls, ears back, snarls, hard eyes etc) then yes I think I would have to put that dog down for biting - it obviously has some severe underlying issues and for a dog not to give warning of an impending bite, IMO that is a very serious matter.

I think more bites do tend to occur with the dog giving plenty of prior notice of its intention to bite but the problem is sometimes we actually make the situation worse with our own body language and that's why people end up bitten in some cases. If a dog bit out of fear, a misguided sense of leadership and control over resources then I'd be contacting a behaviouralist not putting the dog down.

I really don't think there's a simple yes/no answer to this question as there are so many variances that can occur and so much to consider of what went on in the dog's life prior to the actual biting incident.

I do however believe that in families with young children if a dog bites it should immediately be removed from that house - children and an unstable or nervous dog are just never a good mix.

[linnie]

No I wouldnt put anyi of my dogs down for biting.
I would however probably slap the person who aggrevated them
Aggressive dogs that have a record of biting is a different matter.
Either the owner needs to keep them tightly under control or seperated from the problem.
However Im with you... its not always the dogs fault just like that woman had every right to slap that insolent man. He actually got off lightly, if it had have been me I would have mashed him into the ground.
Sorry I am sweet most times but I hate it if someone is in the wrong and doesnt expect consequences

[cata.m]

i have been bit by my dogs more than once before, not just me but my mom, dad and bro .......and we never consider it an option.... ( Emilio was old and got crankie) .
nice example though.... i wouldve beat the crap out of him too....the thing is that we are very quick to judge, without even knowing the other side of the story....

[rmci]

It really depends on the circumstance. Why did the dog bite? How badly? Etc, etc. Putting a dog down after a nip would be ridiculous, but if the dog attacked, that's another story.

[sammy]

Any dog will bite if he's pushed far enough. It's the owners job as leader to make the dog is never in a situation where they are pushed to that point.

The classic situation we used to see in the pediatric OR was a very stable, reliable family dog who is often getting older and is harassed by a visiting child all day long and nobody thinks twice about it because "he's always been so great with kids, he's very tolerant" The dog tolerates a bunch of rough handling and harassment by the child and eventually the dog has had enough. He seeks out a quiet corner, his dog house or crate and with nobody paying attention, the child follows the dog in. The dog who has done everything he can to avoid the child, is trapped and cornered. He probably lifts a lip, lets out a low growl-- the child has no idea what that means, no adult is around to hear. The child has been really enjoying "playing with the dog" all day and finally the dog does the only thing he has left and that's to bite the child. His every other attempt to tell the child to leave him be has been ignored. Unfortunately this usually means the child and dog were face to face in a tight spot, so the child gets a bite to the face.
In that situation (which we saw several times per year) I blame the owners of the dog. The whole problem could have been avoided if they'd paid any attention to their dog and looked after him. The parents are also to blame for not paying attention to their child.

The same type of situation goes on at off leash parks with owners standing by doing nothing while their dog gets completely pummeled by a dog (usualy older and larger) who is having fun bullying them. I often hear owners say "well he has to learn" Learn what? That you will let another dog beat him up? That he can't trust you? Eventually you get a dog who is defensively aggressive.

The most common situation where an adult dog bites an adult human that is completely unprovoked is (according to a really good study of dog bite statistics) when an intact adult male dog who lives a life on the end of a chain or alone in a back yard escapes and is on a runaway. Again- I blame the owners.

So I guess I'd say you really have to look at each situation.

[Ritz459]

I agree that I think it depends on the situation. That example with a senior dog is very good. Our cat is just like that. He is WONDERFUL with kids, but he is getting on in his years (he is 14yrs old today) and doesn't tolorate as much as he used too. If he is being bugged, he'll move away. Then he'll start flicking his ears around. Then his tail will start wagging. If that doesn't work, he swats with his claws withdrawled. And if even that doesn't work, you end up with a kitty bite and claw mark on your hand. Plenty of warnings. It was your own stupid fault, not the cats.

I own a fear aggressive dog. Rose isn't like some fear aggressive dogs that snap at everything; if it could be a "case" then she would have the mild form of it. One thing she is afraid of is men. If a man came up to her and totally ignored her signals of flinching away, crouching down, hackles going up, trying to get away, and in some cases, barking, then if he got bit he woud have deserved it as well. Rose doesn't need to be put down, she needs some training. (And she made a HUGE step in actually letting a male judge examine her while she was in a stand stay six feet away from me. She never moved the whole time. )

Now on the other hand, take into a recent case of a dog I used to petsit. He was a Cocker mix by the name of Toby. His owners coddled him so thus he became extreamly possesive. In the time that he was at our house, he bit my sister twice, my brother once, and he full out attacked my brother's girlfriend. He had growled at me more than a couple of times, but since I didn't take crap from him, it never escalated to anything else. They called us up one night asking, "Will you guys take Toby? He just attacked us and we are going to put him down if we can't find a home for him."
While I think that some serious doggy training could have made Toby into a happy, friendly dog, they didn't want to put in the effort to do that, so Toby is now on the other side of the rainbow bridge.

I was at work the other day and I was walking a 140lb ten month old Mastiff pup. This dog has had no training and was extreamly dog aggressive. He charged another dog in a kennel, and when I got him under control, he took that aggression out on me because I was making him mind. He jumped up on me and tried to bite my face. I didn't get bit because I threw my hand into his chest and knocked him off balance, but it was a close one. Ever since then I've kept him on a short leash and always put myself between him and the dogs, not letting him even look at them. He hasn't tried to bite me since. Max needs some serious training and socailization or he is going to turn into an unbalenced dog that is aggressive.

I think that if a dog bites, you need to find out why he bites. If the bite was preceeded by plenty of warnings, then it wasn't the dogs fault. If the bite was because of food aggression, possessiveness, or other things that can be overcome by lots of training, then the dog shouldn't be put down, just worked with. But if the bite was totally uncalled for and just happend out of the blue (like with dogs who suffer from rage syndrom) then the nicest thing you can do for the dog and the people around it is to euthanize it.

[MAJOR'S MOMMA]

There is a huge difference between a warning snap and a bite. If a dog disciplines another for rude behavior then that is 100% acceptable in my view. How ever I am firm believer in taking a pro-active roll in protecting my dog from rude dogs, and rude dog owners if at all possible.
I also know my dog's weaknesses and make sure to protect him most of all from himself
My dog is never around or allowed to play with children who are not family. To allow anything else would place him in danger should he scratch some one or accidently injure them while playing. Unfortunately we live in day and age where lawyers are on fast dial.
Major eats our of a Kong so the food is not an issue with him, but I do not allow Major to impose himself on company any way. If he does not mind his manners then he is tethered or on lead next to me. Company is not allowed to tease or mess around his food/toys either.
To ask if a dog should be put down for biting is a touchy subject with me. I own a dog with issues and I know that with training and the right handling most of those issues can be worked through. So my answer would be no... just because a dog bite/nips does nto mean it should put down. I do vlounteer work with our behaviorist and I work with a lot of dogs who have issues. I think most of those dogs biggest problem is their owners

[llsnwtsn]

I am a firm believer in obedience training and teaching my dogs the proper way to act. In my line of work, I see dogs everyday that bite with the slightest provocation and it never comes to any good

[Rip's Girl]

Biting is just dog behavior. To a dog, a bite isn't inflicted with the intent to cause harm just for kicks, it's an attempt to correct someone or defend itself. Sometimes it's prey drive, sometimes it's fear, sometimes it's an inherited instinct to guard . . .

There are such a broad spectrum of bites out there that I can't say all are tolerable/intolerable. I work with bite dogs on occasion and I'd say that I would probably tolerate about 99% of them, they were all "fixable". I've only met a couple dogs that were not right in the head and were biting randomly, just for the hell of it. Both of these dogs were unsocialized as puppies, if that makes any difference. Since they had no visible triggers it was hard to desensitize them to what may have been upsetting them. I think these dogs could have been conditioned to have a softer mouth or keep their teeth off of people, but they would probably never have been trustworthy.

[oc_spirit]

I agree with Grace! Its hard to just bluntly say that all biting is 100% acceptable/unacceptable because the reason for a bite is such a broad range. Either way though, no matter why the bite occured it needs to be corrected somehow whether on the spot with an actual correction because he over-stepped his boundaries OR doing some training in order to desensitize a dog to something or teach him the proper way to react to something

Its the same thing with a growl.

[Rivsky]

Originally Posted by oc_spirit

Its the same thing with a growl.

Do you mean that you'd correct a dog for growling by this comment OC?

[oc_spirit]

Depends WHY he growled. I mean, if he growled because Im trying to take his bone then yes he will get an ""Hey!"" from me which in this is a verbal correction or an ""attention getter"". Depending on how well I know the dog and if I know how he responds to certain things I might grab his collar too. Im not correcting the growl itself, im correcting WHY he growled.

[Rivsky]

Makes sense OC - thanks for clearing it up for me!