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[qingcong]

This one may hit home to a lot of people and it may sound like a pretty silly question to most because most of us take it for granted. Do dogs truly understand and know their names?

I personally believe dogs do NOT know their names the same way humans do. I also believe they do NOT know the names of anything else in the world. It makes sense to me that they do not have the concept of giving a name to an object. Nowhere in nature is it ever necessary for wild canines to have names for themselves or others. For example, there are no names for each individual member in a wolf pack. They don't give names to caribou or moose. They recognize others through scent and image.

A lot of people will give examples of how their dogs seem to understand, "Get the ball", "Get the frisbee", or "Where's Nimo? Go find Nimo!" Certainly dogs prove to be very intelligent, but there is minimal evidence if any at all that the dogs are actually attaching names to objects. The only thing we can gather from the dog correctly performing these actions, is that the dog obeys the command just like it obeys any other command such as "sit".

Famous dog trainers from Jean Donaldson to Cesar Millan write that dogs do not understand the meaning of words. The name is no different than any other word to the dog. What do you guys think?

[calgal]

I have to strongly disagree with you. I have three Yorkies who not only know their names, but I can ask each of them to find (saying the name of the other dogs) by name and they do. The each know the others names. I have recently picked up too needy little dogs, and within one day, each of them knew the names of the two new comers. They save me a lot of time and steps when I don't see one of the dogs, so I just ask them to get........then the name. They also know the difference between the truck and the car when we say get in the truck, or get in the car. They know what a cat is, a cow, a bird, freezer, (their home-made cookies are in there) daddy, mommy, and they also know the names of our sons. When the three sons are here at the same time, I can just say where is........then the name, and they run and stand beside that son, or if I say go get.........then the name they will go bark at him and nip at his heels, like they are herding him. They also know what the Dairy Queen sign is, and when they see it they go nuts. They are insainly crazy over "cream-cream". I could go on and on with this, but if your not a believer, it's pointless. I'm going to email Cesar and find out what his views really are on this subject.

[qingcong]

I would love to hear what Cesar Millan's views are on this subject. Do you personally know him?

"I could go on and on with this, but if your not a believer, it's pointless."
Just as I suspected it would happen with some people, this hits home with you and from your tone it sounds like you take it personally, as if I am attacking the integrity of your dogs. Please know I am not trying to do that. I believe your stories, but I think there is probably more to it than you describe. We see it from the point of view of the human, and inherently, we are biased to believe that our beloved companions understand what we are saying. The response I would give you with regards to this is written in the third paragraph of the original post.

[Carrie]

I think dogs learn the names of things, including their own name. I think dogs can learn the words for concrete objects, but not the concept of language. In other words, I don't think they understand verbs and so forth, so they can't connect complex ideas formed from a lot of words together. I believe they learn the names of objects and even names of some people in their family by association....cause and effect...condition/response...just as babies do when they are beginning to learn the names of objects. So, as far as their knowing their own names, I think they know that when they hear it, they should pay attention. I don't think they know what the abstract meaning of names of things are but they obviously know that the sound of the word goes with an object or living being that they have been given the opportunity to make an association. That's why I can say to my dog, "go see Andrew" and the dog will go to Andrew, even if there are other people in the room. "Go get your ball." The dog knows that the sound of the word, "ball" means that round thing that I throw for him. I don't know that the dogs understands the "go get" part. But somehow he/she understands that I want him to go get it.

If there are several dogs in a field or yard and you call one dog's name to come to you, will all of their ears perk up and will they all come? Or will just the dog whose name you called come. (Provided he's trained to come) When all my dogs are outside, I can call Chulita to come in, but the other two may linger. I use their names when I hand out treats. When I say one dog's name, the others are not to push in to try and get the treat. I've taught them to keep their heads looking straight ahead and not get their noses close to my hand when I have said only one of the dogs' names. This is how I taught Toker to not be so pushy and snarky when handing out treats to all of them.

Anyhow, we know that dogs learn the names of things, including their own name. Look at that Border Collie, Rico, who learned some 200 names of all those objects and in fact, proved that dogs can fast map by picking out a new word to go with a new toy in the midst of all the other many toys in the room. They're using a process of elimination. Their understanding of the concepts of language is probably not deep. But I do believe they understand on a very young child's level....name paired with object. Their own name? They hear it and respond. (if trained) But do they understand that it is a "name?" Probably not the way we understand the concept. They just make associations. Probably. LOL.

I also believe that as dogs continue their evolution with us, that they may be getting "smarter." After all, it behooves them. It is advantageous to understand better and better the species they associate with. They are probably developing even more understanding of us that meets the eye. They already understand an eerie amount of stuff about us....social cues etc. So, it's hard to say for sure how savvy they are. And just when scientists think they have the answers, dogs may have evolved another little bit, just out of reach of our understanding.

[qingcong]

Originally Posted by Carrie

Anyhow, we know that dogs learn the names of things, including their own name. Look at that Border Collie, Rico, who learned some 200 names of all those objects and in fact, proved that dogs can fast map by picking out a new word to go with a new toy in the midst of all the other many toys in the room. They're using a process of elimination. Their understanding of the concepts of language is probably not deep. But I do believe they understand on a very young child's level....name paired with object. Their own name? They hear it and respond. (if trained) But do they understand that it is a "name?" Probably not the way we understand the concept. They just make associations. Probably. LOL.

Yeah, I've read about Rico. Border collies are some amazingly intelligent dogs! What he proves to us is that dogs do in fact make an association between words and objects. However, it does not necessarily mean his thought process goes as follows - "ball = round object", "frisbee = flat circular thing", "Andrew = human with fishy smell". There is a fuzzy association, and he understands what to do when he hears certain sounds (commands). But say Andrew was approaching a dog, do you really think the dog is thinking, "Oh boy, here comes Andrew!!!" No, dogs do not think in words. Only humans think with words.

Another thing to think about is the concept of self. Tests suggests that only humans, elephants, dolphins, and chimps have a sense of self. If you are to attach a name to yourself, then the prerequisite is to first have a sense of self. Otherwise, how will you be able to understand, "My name is Buddy." Do dogs have a sense of self? So far, there is no evidence suggesting it.

I'm not so sure that dogs really are evolving to become more "human". I mean, there is no sort of natural selection process going on with their reproduction. I don't have statistics, but for every reputable breeder who breeds based on temperament, docility, intelligence, there are probably at least 3 times the number of puppy mills/irresponsible breeders/strays.

Most dog trainers will tell you to not use the dog's name when they are doing something bad. The reason for this is so that the dog does not associate their "name" with the bad activity they are doing. If dogs do in fact understand their names like we do, then this piece of advice from trainers is out of date.

[Carrie]

We probably agree on the word thing. I think we said about the same thing, but in a different way. I did try to explain about the pairing together of words and objects, making associations, while not understanding the abstract workings of language.

And yes, I've read those studies about not thinking they have a sense of self. This is thought to be necessary to have empathy. They think dogs though, may have a rudimentary sense of empathy. This is being studied more now.

I don't think I said that dogs are evolving to become more human. (?) I think dogs can become smarter as more pressure is put on them. People do a lot more with dogs than they use to, it seems to me. Look at Rico.

[calgal]

Oh goodness, I'm not a bit upset. Sometimes I sound like it though, but believe me, it takes quite a bit to anger me.

[qingcong]

Originally Posted by Carrie

We probably agree on the word thing. I think we said about the same thing, but in a different way. I did try to explain about the pairing together of words and objects, making associations, while not understanding the abstract workings of language.

And yes, I've read those studies about not thinking they have a sense of self. This is thought to be necessary to have empathy. They think dogs though, may have a rudimentary sense of empathy. This is being studied more now.

I don't think I said that dogs are evolving to become more human. (?) I think dogs can become smarter as more pressure is put on them. People do a lot more with dogs than they use to, it seems to me. Look at Rico.

Yeah, we are roughly on the same page. I see what you mean about dogs getting smarter. I wouldn't know about that. It is possible, like in the case of breeding guide dogs, but humans are also getting smarter about dog training.

[Cassiepeia]

I also believe they do NOT know the names of anything else in the world. It makes sense to me that they do not have the concept of giving a name to an object. Nowhere in nature is it ever necessary for wild canines to have names for themselves or others. For example, there are no names for each individual member in a wolf pack. They don't give names to caribou or moose. They recognize others through scent and image.

I find this interesting. Where's the proof? How on earth do humans know what animals actually think and whether or not they have "names" for things?
I'm certainly not going to debate whether they do or don't, because the fact is....no one knows. Not a single human being on the planet knows this and it's quite a silly thing to say. I understand why people simply assume this, but it's really not something that could ever be debated.

Anyhoo, back on topic...I know dogs understand association and though they don't understand the meaning of the actual word, they learn what it means in relation to them. Which, to me, means that YES they do know their names. Not quite the way a human does though.

[Doggie Joy]

I definitely do believe they know their names. At the same time, I think there might be credence to a small portion of the object thing, and here's why. For the first time, I've used a crate with my current 2 dogs, one of which I got as a puppy. Both know the crate command perfectly. Now one day I moved the crate to a different location. We did some review and re-training but that night, I was trying to do something and they were 'in my hair' so I ordered them into the crate. I caught a glimpse of my puppy and was about to scold when I realized she was obediently sitting where the crate had been. In her mind, 'crate' was spot and not that metal thing she gets into. I broke out into laughter and praised her, but I've never forgotten it. She did what I told her to, in her mind.

[Carrie]

Originally Posted by Cassiepeia

I find this interesting. Where's the proof? How on earth do humans know what animals actually think and whether or not they have "names" for things?
I'm certainly not going to debate whether they do or don't, because the fact is....no one knows. Not a single human being on the planet knows this and it's quite a silly thing to say. I understand why people simply assume this, but it's really not something that could ever be debated.

Anyhoo, back on topic...I know dogs understand association and though they don't understand the meaning of the actual word, they learn what it means in relation to them. Which, to me, means that YES they do know their names. Not quite the way a human does though.

That's right. We don't even know what other people are thinking and they're the same species as we. I don't even know what's in my own mind half the time. In Patricia McConnell's book, For the Love of a Dog, she talks about this. She talks about how scientists study things and because of the behavior they see, they make some determinations. But, she stresses that although we can surmize a lot, we don't really know what is in another's mind. She really puts things in perspective I think.

The crate story is cute. Funny thing is....when I moved the crate from the kitchen to say....my bedroom and told my Doberman to go in his crate or "go to bed," he would go in his crate regardless of where it is. So, for him, it wasn't the location, it was the crate itself. But that's got to do with stimulus control with training and that's why he learned that the word, "crate" actually belonged to that box thing he went in.

Here is something. It has a few pages.

HowStuffWorks "How many words do dogs understand?"

[Dogsareme]

I think animals can learn their names, and I think we can change our animals name and they will learn the new one. Just like a sound(ie. doorbell) they learn to associate the 'sound' of a word with an activity, object or attention getting.

I believe to understand our lables/language dogs use their survival skills. Out in the wild how does a dog know a moose is near? (smell). How do they know to run from something? (sound). How do they know they hurt a liter mate? (sound).

They can learn to associate words with object, but we have also learned how to change their association to words/sounds/sights/smells(classical conditioning). Words are not the same to dogs as they are to us. We teach the dogs the association, just as we teach our dogs their names or the names of other dogs.

The name has no personal meaning to a dog, it's a human trait that we feel we must bestow upon animals because in our minds it does not make sense that something living with us does not have a label when it is being refered to. Like a dogs survival skills is a part of it's biology, naming things is a part of ours.

[qingcong]

Originally Posted by Cassiepeia

I find this interesting. Where's the proof? How on earth do humans know what animals actually think and whether or not they have "names" for things?
I'm certainly not going to debate whether they do or don't, because the fact is....no one knows. Not a single human being on the planet knows this and it's quite a silly thing to say. I understand why people simply assume this, but it's really not something that could ever be debated.

You're exactly right, we will never be able to guess what dogs are feeling or thinking. But this isn't a crapshoot on their internal state, this discussion should be about trying to figure out what dogs are intellectually capable of based on what we do know about them.

Anyhoo, back on topic...I know dogs understand association and though they don't understand the meaning of the actual word, they learn what it means in relation to them. Which, to me, means that YES they do know their names. Not quite the way a human does though.

I agree with this. In the same way a dog learns what to do when someone says "sit" or "come", the name can represent a cue to do something. It seems we agree on what they understand, the only difference is that you consider it knowing their name while I don't. By the same token, I would argue that dogs don't really know what "sit" means either. They do it because of the prior reinforcement history, not because they understanding the meaning of the word (this is from The Culture Clash).

I would define "knowing their name" as equating their name with their own identity. If we really think about what it takes to understand that, it is an extremely complex concept. It only seems easy because it is second nature to us. I think that understanding what a dog's name means to them is a significant issue because so many owners tend to abuse their dog's name. "Buddy, stop that!" "Okay Buddy, come on!" "Easy Buddy, easy..." Owners use the dog's name like their child's name, but what does the dog think "Buddy" means? More often than not, it is probably associated with something bad.

[Cassiepeia]

It depends on how the name is used, I think.

But this isn't a crapshoot on their internal state, this discussion should be about trying to figure out what dogs are intellectually capable of based on what we do know about them.

I think most of the people on here who train dogs are already aware of what they're intellectually capable of. If we're talking in regards to language, I think we're going to need to set up an actual study and spend a decade or ten trying to figure that one out. It certainly won't be achieved on an online forum.

[flyndog]

Originally Posted by qingcong

Yeah, I've read about Rico. Border collies are some amazingly intelligent dogs! What he proves to us is that dogs do in fact make an association between words and objects. However, it does not necessarily mean his thought process goes as follows - "ball = round object", "frisbee = flat circular thing", "Andrew = human with fishy smell". There is a fuzzy association, and he understands what to do when he hears certain sounds (commands)...

But then there's Betsy, BC (340 words) being tested in Kaminski's lab in Austria. Betsy can look at a photo of an object, go into a room away from the tester and retrieve the real object even though she's never seen the object before.

Originally Posted by qingcong

...Most dog trainers will tell you to not use the dog's name when they are doing something bad. The reason for this is so that the dog does not associate their "name" with the bad activity they are doing. If dogs do in fact understand their names like we do, then this piece of advice from trainers is out of date.

When I was a child, the only time my mother used my middle name was when I was in trouble. I still cringe when I hear that name.