Pit bulls- genetics or environment?

TinyAlbinoDancer · 11-22-2005, 03:46 PM

(Moderators, I'm unsure how much quoting is ok from an online article, and I don't believe anyone can see the page if I link it because it's a database my college subscribes to. Please let me know if I've done anything that's not allowed, and let me know how to fix it! Thanks!

)

I stumbled across this article on Pit Bull aggression, and found it fascinating in response to people's arguments that Pit Bull owners are to blame for Pit Bull aggression. Pardoning the continual use of "Pit Bull" by myself and in the article, what are some counter-arguments?? Thanks.

"...Defenders claim that, in the hands of a sensible owner, the pit-bull will cause no more trouble than any other breed. There is good reason to doubt this.

The pit-bull has been bred as a fighting dog. German shepherds, Dobermann pinschers and rottweilers are all bred to guard human masters, their livestock and their property. Pit-bulls are designed to kill other dogs. Their large heads and strong jaws make pit-bulls ideal for the fighting life. But it is the unpleasant behaviour bred into the dogs that makes them particularly nasty:

* Arousability. Pit-bulls are much more easily aroused than most dogs. Arousal is controlled by a part of the brain called the Reticular Activating System (RAS). The amount of L-tyrosine, a chemical which passes messages from nerve cell to nerve cell, seems to play a role. Since they are genetically controlled, L-tyrosine levels can be changed by selective breeding. More easily aroused breeds have been shown to have lots of Ltyrosine in the RAS. It is a fair bet that pit-bulls do, too.

* Changes in the RAS may also account for the dogs' perseverance. Pit-bulls are incredibly tenacious. Once they are fixed on a target, they are all but impossible to distract. The little girl whose recent ordeal propelled pit-bulls into the headlines suffered a 15-minute attack. The dog's owner and two other adults could not stop the animal, though they beat it until it bled.

* This is due to the dogs' insensitivity to pain. To the extent that pain does influence a pit-bull, it may encourage it rather than dissuade it. Most dogs which have been beaten in a fight will cringe submissively when they next meet the victor. A pit-bull will attack. Again, this seems to be a matter of brain chemistry. Endorphins are generated by the body to block pain (morphine and its relatives work by mimicking this effect). Their reactions to anaesthetics suggest that pit-bulls are more than usually sensitive to endorphins. They may also generate higher levels of them. This would enable them to withstand a lot of pain. And endorphins, like morphine, are addictive. The dogs may be junkies, seeking pain so they can get the endorphin buzz they crave.

* The pit-bull's body signalling has also been distorted. Most dogs will give notice before they attack. Pit-bulls attack without warning, in order to get the advantage of the first strike. A dog will generally bow to another if it wishes to play. When a pit-bull makes this signal-universal among other breeds-it may follow it with an all-out attack. In effect, it is lying about its intentions.

Not all the traits that have been bred into the pit-bull are bad. They ought, in theory, to be fairly safe to handle, since (at least among those who breed them for fighting) pit-bulls which attack men have usually been killed. But this culling probably tailed off when the dogs became popular as pets. So today's dogs have the temperament for fighting, but little discipline.

So much for nature. How much is nurture? A common feature of allegedly aggressive breeds is that their litters include many potential "alpha" animals. Alphas are likely to try to lead any pack they find themselves in. Although alpha potentiality is probably inherited, dominance depends on the circumstances of the dog's upbringing. Here, the owner's behaviour matters. A dog may come to believe it is dominant without the owner realising that this has happened. Then, when a conflict arises, the dog becomes aggressive, whereas an animal which did not think it was top dog would submit.

In general, if pups are scrutinised for the signs of a tendency to dominance, and then disciplined appropriately, they quickly stop making trouble. But it is unlikely that this would work for the pit-bull, whose behaviour deviates so much from the normal pattern of a dog's life."

Citation:
The Economist (US), June 1, 1991 v319 n7709 p83(1).
"Killer genes ate my dog; animal behavior." ("Are Pit Bulls Inherently Dangerous?")

elegy · 11-22-2005, 04:24 PM

i think the author of this article has two very important mistakes in his arguement:
inherently aggressive does not equal inherently dangerous.
dog aggressive does not equal human aggressive.

yes, pit bulls are more dog aggressive than most breeds. there are other breeds who are also dog aggressive by nature- the akc breed standard for the akita mentions dog aggression, for example. but lots of dogs are dog aggressive-- everything from labradors to australian shepherds to jack russells. so what?

are pit bulls more easily aroused than other dogs? some, probably. are they more likely to be dog aggressive? absolutely. are they tenacious? sure! but so are all the other terrier breeds. it's part of what being a terrier is all about. are they strong? sure! but so are a lot of other breeds. has their body signalling been changed? i'll buy that. but look at the border collie and the other herding breeds who give eye.

i believe human aggression in the pit bull is, by and large, the product of crappy breeding. i believe any pit bull who shows aggression toward humans is unsound, and that most owners cannot safely own and manage these dogs.

i believe dog aggression is largely inherent and that it can be moderated by socialization and training, but it cannot be socialized *out* of the pit bull and it is dangerous to assume that it can be. i do not think dog aggro dogs are inherently dangerous to humans given that they are owned responsibly. this means no dog parks, supervising the dogs at all times when outside as they're legendary escape artists, going to basic obedience class, etc. nothing earth-shattering.

k9hullio_sam · 11-22-2005, 08:02 PM

i think that the article is just A LITTLE biased. I have know golden retrievers that will bite your hands off if you touch it in the wrong spot. I also have met pitt bulls that are submissive to ANY dog, and as soon as it meets you will rool over on its back.
I dont think that a dogs temperment has al whole buch to do with breedinh. yes, the pitt bull is more able to tear another dog apart, but if you are not training them to fight then they are not going to fight. When the breedwas created, that is what they were using them for, and yeah, you could probably be scared when you saw a pitt bull. but today, that is not the way it is, and i believe temperment is gained throught the dogs environment, not necessarily through the breed.(not saying that no temperment is passed on throught the generations, but i think that most of it gained from the environment.)
You can not judge all dogs by what the breed used to be
*sam*

hotrod41573 · 11-24-2005, 08:26 PM

i agree sam. i have a friend who has two pit bulls. both of them will roll over and look up with there beautiful eyes and begg for you to rub there belly. they are not his frist pit bull and most likely not his last either. i totally trust these dogs around my son. no he is never alone with them. responsible owners are what this breed needs not people who will mistreat them or fight them. in itlay pit bulls were used to herd bulls.i still say blame the deed not the breed they are beautiful animals just like any other breed of dog. there has to be a way to make people see some of the good in these dogs.given a chance they can be heroes like any other breed.

hotrod and diamond

rutylr · 11-30-2005, 09:09 AM

I just made this for another list.It's about the history of fighting and pit bulls.You will see that they were not bred to kill back in the day.Owners loved and took care of their valued pets.
American Pit Bull Terrier
I wanted to do this a little different.I'm sure you all could look up where the breed came form and what the standard is.I want to tell you what the breed did and how it was done.As you know the APBT gets alot of bad press for fighting,but did you know they use to hold fights with rules and dogs earned titles.Fighting back then was not about killing.
Just as a student of the Greyhound should learn something about dog-racing in order to more fully understand his breed and how it evolved,so should the person with a serious interest in the pit bull learn something about dog-fighting.If he finds the subject personally repugnant,he will "bite the bullet"and learn about it anyway,for if he really wants to understand the breed,he must learn the conditions of it's formation.
What you most likley know about the breed.
Mr C.B Bennet.a renowned Sportsman and Fancier,as well as Breeder,organized a stud book and registering office in 1898. He designated the breed name to be American Pit Bull Terrier.(APBT).Mr Bennet also established rules governing the pitting of dogs and set up the official breed standard as it stands today.
The APBT is considered to be the most powerful dog, pound for pound ever developed,even though they are also known for their devotion and steady temperment with humans.The versatility of the breed is perhaps it's most outstanding feature.
APBT-the direct desendant of countless generations of game dogs.Altho primarily famed as a fighter without equal,this breed has proved to be useful in predatory animal control and as a catch dog and guard dog-and it just happens that he makes an excellent house dog!
American Staffordshire Terrier-The show counterpart of the APBT.Except for some of the game strains that are dual-registered.
pit-bull-another nickname for the APBT,one that has been used for at least 200 years.
Staffordshire Terrier-Former AKC name for the American Staffordshire Terrier.
Yankee Terrier-A name that was concocted when the AKC refused to register the APBT under it's own name.For some reason this name too,was rejected.
What you might not know.
The UKC used to hold Sanctioned pit fights and they had rules and titles.
Rules Governing Recognized Pit Contests.
Whereas.It is the aim of the United Kennel Club Registering Office,it's members and the APBT Fraternity,to place" Pit Contest" upon a Recognized plane of Excellence and promote more and better contests,the Following rules have been adopted by the Fraternity and UKC Registering Offices.
1.Pit Contest to be recognized must employ a UKC licensed referee.
2.The principals may select any licensed UKC referee in good standing.
3.The Principals may select any fancier for the official timekeeper,but the selection must meet with the approvel of the referee.
4.A licensed referee shall not preside over any"Pit Contest" where one or both of the combat dogs are non-UKC registered "Cur" bloodlines.
5.The combat dogs must be UKC registered in their rightful owner's name and the referee shall make sure of this and be in possession of their registration certificates durning the contest.
6.The referee shall deliver to the UKC Registering Office a full and complete report of the contest within 5 days after the contest.
7.Any dog winning 3 moneyed contests held under these rules and presided over by the UKC licensed referee,shall have the degree of Champion conferred upon him by the UKC Registering Office and the Pit Bull Terrier Fraternity.
8.It shall be the duty of the official timekepper to keep a correct record of the time consumed in the contest by scratches,etc.,and he shall deliver the original time sheet(or a duplicate) to the referee immediately after the contest to be sent to the UKC registering office for record.It shall also be the duty of the official time keeper to call to the referee before the 25 seconds"Get Ready" and the 30 seconds"Let Go", and the referee shall act accordingly.
9.The full amount of the contest money shall be in the hands of the final stake holder before the referee shall order the dogs weighted.The referee shall order the dogs weighted 1 hour before the contest and they shall be weighted in the presence of the referee and the final stake holder of either dog exceeding the weight specified in the agreement shall forfeit then and there to his opponent all money posted.
10. After weighting the dogs the referee shall toss a coin for the Principals and the Principals winning the toss shall have his choice of haveing his dog washed (first or last)also his choice of the corner in the "Pit"
11.Each Principal shall furnish a sponge and two towels for washing and drying his opponents dog.Both dogs shall be washed in the center of the Pit with warm water and washing soda.15 minutes shall be allowed each Principal to wash his opponents dog.The time between washing each dog shall not exceed 5 minutes.
12. After washing and drying each dog shall be placed in the hands of a watchful fancier in the corner of the Pit selected or assigned to him and kept there untill the Principals are given the word "Let Go" by the referee.Each Principal shall "let go" his opponents dog at the start and thereafter shall handle their own dog.
13.There shall be only one container of water in the "Pit" for sponging between a "pick up" and a "scratch" and each Principal shall furnish a sponge 2 towels for sponging and drying his dog.The referee shall examine the sponges and water and have full charge of them at all time.
14.It shall be a fair"scratch in turn" contest.30 seconds shall be allowed between every "pick up" and "scratch" 25 seconds for sponging,drying and fanning,and 5 seconds to get ready.
15.To establish a fair"turn"which will entitle either Principal to "pick up".Both dogs must be free from holds and the dog which is accused of "turning" must have turned his head and shoulders from his opponent.Either Principal upon noticing this action may appeal to the referee and claim the "Turn" and if the claim be just and fair the referee shall immediately call a "pick up" and notify the other Principal it is his turn to scratch.
16.At 25 seconds the referee shall call"get ready" and at 30 seconds he shall call"let go"and the Ptincipal of the dog to scratch shall take his hands off his dog fair of his "scratch" his dog must go across the "pit" inside his opponents"scratch line" and mouth his opponent.Should the dog fail to go across and mouth his opponent he loses the con test and the refereee shall immediately announce the winner.
17.While ons dog is "scratching" the opponent shall hold his dog's head and shoulders fair between his legs just inside the "scratch line".
18.Should a dog while'scratching"become confused and sway to either side of the direct line to his opponent as long as he does not turn his head away from his opponent he is making a fair"scratch"
19.Should any outsider attract the dogs attantion while "scratching" and the dog,stop,or "scratch" the article or object instaed of his opponent,the referee shall immediately order the dog :scratched"over.
20.Should either dog become fanged,the referee shall order a "pick up" and allow the principal to unfang his dog, then immediately order them put down two feet apart and give the word"let go".This action does not have any connection with a "turn" or "scratch" and must not be considered so.Principals can un-fang their dogs with their hands without picking them up if the referee so decides.
21.Should a fair"turn and pick up" be made and the dogs accidentally get in a hold again,the referee shall order them parted and proceed in 30 seconds with the "scratch".
22.Principals shall be allowed to encourage their dogs by voice and actions.Should a Principal touch either dog with his hand,foot or other article while in action the the referee shall immediately call a foul ans announce his opponent the winner.
23.Principals shall take their hands off their dogs fair inside their "Scratch line".Should a principal push his dog over his "scratch line" the referee shall immediately call a foul and announce his opponent the winner.
24.Should a Principal pick his dog up without being told to by the referee.the referee shall immediately call a foul and announce his opponent the winner.
25.Should a Ptincipal leave his corner before the dogs have resumed action, the referee shall immediately call a foul and announce his opponent the winner.
26.Under no circumstances where a match is made and money posted,shall the money be returned without a contest.The Principal appearing for the shall be declared the winner and receive the "stake" money.
27.Should interference of any kind prevent a fair decisive contest, the Principals and the referee shall name the next time and place for the contest(within 15 days).Should the Principals and the referee fail to agree upon the future meeting place, it shall then be the duty of the referee to name the time and place and the same referee shall preside over this unfinished contest and the principals and the referee shall start this contest with "rule 3"
28.Any persons or persons found guilty of doping,faking,poisoning or attempting to dope,fake,poison or damage any dog or dogs,before,durning or after the contest,shall forfeit all money,fined $100 and be barred from the APBT Fraternity for a period of 3 years ,and a full report of such action shall be printed 2 times each year for a period 3 years in the June and Dec.Issues of the UKC official Journal,Bloodlines.
29.In all recognized contests the decisions of the UKC licensed Referee shall be final and all bets shall go as the "main stakes".
30.The "Pit" shall be 16 ft.square with sides two and one half feet high,with a tight wood floor.A line shall be painted across the center,also a scratch line painted across each Principals corner.To draw this scratch line, measure 7 ft out each way from the corner.
My hope is that when reading this you learn that APBT where not bred to be an engine of distruction.I can sympathize with you and understand why you feel the way you do,but you do not know the breed! It would be hard to find a dog with a more dependable disposition with people.If raised in the house from puppyhood,an APBT will be a delightful house pet,amusing,roguish,and unbelievably lovable.
The reason for the attacks on humans is because some people breed away from the standard and do not really care about the breed.APBT bred to the standard would never bite a person.If they did for what ever reason,a resposible breeder would never breed that dog.
This is really a great breed it has just found it way into the wrong hands.
Donna

mrsgrubby · 11-30-2005, 09:31 AM

Donna,
Wow, when was that that the matches were allowed? I just am so surprised that it was a AKC sanctioned event.
I am a bit confused though. What exactly were they allowing? per the description I am not sure I understood what amount of violence was allowed. Fanging was not allowed, is that biting?
Anyway, I admit I am afraid of pit bulls when I see them, however as you know, I have a rottweiller and many people are afraid of them. My fear stems from not knowing if the owner has properly trained or socialized them, and I don't want to take any chances. But then I am leary of anyone else's big rottie as well for the same reason.

rutylr · 11-30-2005, 10:29 AM

This was UKC not AKC.This was in the eary 1900's.Some people also don't know,but back in the day AKC held sactioned SchH trials,but because of the protection part(which not smart people call attack)they were put under pressure and stoped them.
Some dogs I am leary around,but not affraid.Your dog can sence that and so can the other dog.
I think(never really seeing one)it was way more noise then blood.It could not have been to bad if the people are standing right in the ring grabing the dogs when told to.Tosa's also have very strict rules in the way they can fight.If a dog fights unfairly then the fight is called.
Donna

Crossfire Bulldogs · 11-30-2005, 11:13 AM

Quote:

(Moderators, I'm unsure how much quoting is ok from an online article, and I don't believe anyone can see the page if I link it because it's a database my college subscribes to. Please let me know if I've done anything that's not allowed, and let me know how to fix it! Thanks! )

Your fine, thank you for asking!

sugarloafer22 · 12-02-2005, 08:11 AM

I think a huge part of the pit problem is that they have developed an image that attracts the wrong kind of people- aggressive and insecure people select and raise aggressive and insecure dogs. Many chose them to enhance their "tough guy" image. I personally would like to see the breed dissapear or be bred in a 100% different direction. When I say I'd like to see them dissapear I mean over time, and for the sake of the dogs themselves, not for our protection. I am sick of seeing pits bound to chains, abused, neglected, and ultimatly hurting another dog or human.
My mother's sheltie was attacted and severely injured on a walk (in a very nice neighborhood mind you) by four pit bulls. A woman down the street breeds them, and not for any good reason, just because and to make a few extra bucks. They dug a hole out from under her fence. One dog harassed a kid at the nearby apartment complex on a seperate day, then the other day is when the 4 of them (who in their RIGHT mind owns 4 pits - unaltered- again the wrong people attracted to them) attacked my mom's dog.
She got out with lacerations and her skin had been torn away from her tissue and had to be surgically repaired, but ultimatly she was fine thanks to that thick coat.
But there is my opinion on pits. They can be nice dogs, but they are always going to be at risk and usually in the wrong hands.

TribalRats · 12-02-2005, 08:26 AM

Quote:

I think a huge part of the pit problem is that they have developed an image that attracts the wrong kind of people- aggressive and insecure people select and raise aggressive and insecure dogs.

Beautifuly put. I could not agree more.

elegy · 12-02-2005, 10:37 AM

edited to add that i was responding primarily to this:

Quote:

I think a huge part of the pit problem is that they have developed an image that attracts the wrong kind of people- aggressive and insecure people select and raise aggressive and insecure dogs. Many chose them to enhance their "tough guy" image. I personally would like to see the breed dissapear or be bred in a 100% different direction. When I say I'd like to see them dissapear I mean over time, and for the sake of the dogs themselves, not for our protection. I am sick of seeing pits bound to chains, abused, neglected, and ultimatly hurting another dog or human.

i agree that a lot of the problem is that pit bulls are very attractive to crappy owners, but you're forgetting that there are a *lot* of pit bulls in the hands of responsible, intelligent, involved owners. there are pit bulls who compete in agility, obedience, schutzhund, weight pull. there are pit bulls who are SAR dogs, therapy dogs, sniffer dogs.

the problem is that these are not the pit bulls we hear about. we only hear about the ones who are not responsibly owned, the ones who are allowed to get into trouble.

it really upsets me when i read that someone thinks my breed should "dissapear or be bred in a 100% different direction". my dogs do not need to disappear for the good of the dog world, the human world, or any other world. they don't need to be bred in a different direction. they are wonderful, friendly, solid-tempered dogs who don't like other dogs too much. they just need to be owned by people who are willing to get off their butts and be active, hands-on, intelligent owners who understand the breed and their specific needs.

TribalRats · 12-02-2005, 11:05 AM

Quote:

but you're forgetting that there are a *lot* of pit bulls in the hands of responsible, intelligent, involved owners.

I don't think anyone was forgetting that, at least that is not what I took away from the post. The debate is on genetics vs. environment there for the opinion being stated was how the environment is bringing out the worst in the genetics.
Being involved with showing dogs like I am with the UKC, I see incredible APBTs all the time, loving, sweet, gentle APBTs owned by very involved knowledgeable owners....however the question is nature vs nurture....and I truly believe BOTH are involved.

Quote:

the problem is that these are not the pit bulls we hear about. we only hear about the ones who are not responsibly owned, the ones who are allowed to get into trouble.

I disagree with this somewhat. I do agree that we do not hear about the loving tender stories involving Pits and we should, I think they should show the therapy Pits however we hear so much about the attacks by pits because they are so severe and savage. Granted these are usually pits owned by less then desirable people however because of the severity of the attacks they are reported....at lest it is bringing attention to the issue. I truly believe that while most of the attention is negative with the awareness the exposure brings maybe some change can be effected. By change I am not talking BSL I HATE BSL. They have no place in my opinion , by change I mean the good Pit owners will work even harder to show that is amazing, powerful and loving breed need not be the monstrous dogs they are usually portrayed as on TV. They can be kind, gentle and loving when raised in the right environment.
It is an uphill battle for sure however this is your breed and you owe it to them to campaigned on there behalf and you do. It is your opportunity to change the minds of people who are against the breed and it's owners by breaking the stereo type of being hot headed and uneducated. This is a GREAT opportunity to advance your breed in the public eye by getting K-9 good citizen awards and showing the world the kind hearted dogs you have.
Try not to get offended by people who have had bad experiences or people who are closed minded.....your well behaved loving dog will effect more change then any argument or heated debate ever will.
Pits have a long up hill road ahead but I believe they will get there, they will be able to prove the dogs they have the potential to be when givent he opportunity in a loving family.

sammy · 12-02-2005, 01:15 PM

I agree whole heartedly with Elegy.
People seem to get confused between dog-dog aggression and aggression towards humans which are completely different. Pit bulls have been bred for decades to be dog aggressive and not human aggressive. This is no different than getting a border collie and wanting it not to herd things- sometimes it's a hard wired trait/ instinct.
What's scary to me is when people think if they buy/adopt a pit pup and love it and socialise it properly it will never be dog aggressive. They might get lucky but often they do not. Then when the dog aggression appears around 18 months to 2 yrs of age, they make all sorts of excuses or worse- say "the dog has sanapped and gone crazy" and have the dog PTS. People need to do breed research- if you don't want to deal with dogg-dog aggression, don't get a pit or any of the other breeds that tend to have that as a trait.

gaddylovesdogs · 12-02-2005, 03:49 PM

I think a pit's personality depends both on it's breeding and it's owner. If you breed two aggressive dogs you're going to end up with puppies that are more aggressive than a puppy who's parents have wonderful temperaments. I would be more careful around a pit bull with bad breeding. And there are a lot of people who don't train or badly train their pit bulls.

But I think that pits are wonderful animals. The ones I have met were sweethearts. They are more likely to be dog aggressive, because that's what they were bred to be. If they're aggressive towards humans, that's a problem, because they weren't meant to act aggressively towards their owners.

11-22-2005, 03:46 PM	#1 (permalink)
TinyAlbinoDancer Always room for one more Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: CA Posts: 2,538 Rep Power: 163	Pit bulls- genetics or environment? (Moderators, I'm unsure how much quoting is ok from an online article, and I don't believe anyone can see the page if I link it because it's a database my college subscribes to. Please let me know if I've done anything that's not allowed, and let me know how to fix it! Thanks! ) I stumbled across this article on Pit Bull aggression, and found it fascinating in response to people's arguments that Pit Bull owners are to blame for Pit Bull aggression. Pardoning the continual use of "Pit Bull" by myself and in the article, what are some counter-arguments?? Thanks. "...Defenders claim that, in the hands of a sensible owner, the pit-bull will cause no more trouble than any other breed. There is good reason to doubt this. The pit-bull has been bred as a fighting dog. German shepherds, Dobermann pinschers and rottweilers are all bred to guard human masters, their livestock and their property. Pit-bulls are designed to kill other dogs. Their large heads and strong jaws make pit-bulls ideal for the fighting life. But it is the unpleasant behaviour bred into the dogs that makes them particularly nasty: * Arousability. Pit-bulls are much more easily aroused than most dogs. Arousal is controlled by a part of the brain called the Reticular Activating System (RAS). The amount of L-tyrosine, a chemical which passes messages from nerve cell to nerve cell, seems to play a role. Since they are genetically controlled, L-tyrosine levels can be changed by selective breeding. More easily aroused breeds have been shown to have lots of Ltyrosine in the RAS. It is a fair bet that pit-bulls do, too. * Changes in the RAS may also account for the dogs' perseverance. Pit-bulls are incredibly tenacious. Once they are fixed on a target, they are all but impossible to distract. The little girl whose recent ordeal propelled pit-bulls into the headlines suffered a 15-minute attack. The dog's owner and two other adults could not stop the animal, though they beat it until it bled. * This is due to the dogs' insensitivity to pain. To the extent that pain does influence a pit-bull, it may encourage it rather than dissuade it. Most dogs which have been beaten in a fight will cringe submissively when they next meet the victor. A pit-bull will attack. Again, this seems to be a matter of brain chemistry. Endorphins are generated by the body to block pain (morphine and its relatives work by mimicking this effect). Their reactions to anaesthetics suggest that pit-bulls are more than usually sensitive to endorphins. They may also generate higher levels of them. This would enable them to withstand a lot of pain. And endorphins, like morphine, are addictive. The dogs may be junkies, seeking pain so they can get the endorphin buzz they crave. * The pit-bull's body signalling has also been distorted. Most dogs will give notice before they attack. Pit-bulls attack without warning, in order to get the advantage of the first strike. A dog will generally bow to another if it wishes to play. When a pit-bull makes this signal-universal among other breeds-it may follow it with an all-out attack. In effect, it is lying about its intentions. Not all the traits that have been bred into the pit-bull are bad. They ought, in theory, to be fairly safe to handle, since (at least among those who breed them for fighting) pit-bulls which attack men have usually been killed. But this culling probably tailed off when the dogs became popular as pets. So today's dogs have the temperament for fighting, but little discipline. So much for nature. How much is nurture? A common feature of allegedly aggressive breeds is that their litters include many potential "alpha" animals. Alphas are likely to try to lead any pack they find themselves in. Although alpha potentiality is probably inherited, dominance depends on the circumstances of the dog's upbringing. Here, the owner's behaviour matters. A dog may come to believe it is dominant without the owner realising that this has happened. Then, when a conflict arises, the dog becomes aggressive, whereas an animal which did not think it was top dog would submit. In general, if pups are scrutinised for the signs of a tendency to dominance, and then disciplined appropriately, they quickly stop making trouble. But it is unlikely that this would work for the pit-bull, whose behaviour deviates so much from the normal pattern of a dog's life." Citation: The Economist (US), June 1, 1991 v319 n7709 p83(1). "Killer genes ate my dog; animal behavior." ("Are Pit Bulls Inherently Dangerous?")
	__________________ ~Karen Missie~Trixie~Little Guy~Ollie

11-22-2005, 04:24 PM	#2 (permalink)
elegy American Pit Bull Terrier Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 1,073 Rep Power: 107	i think the author of this article has two very important mistakes in his arguement: inherently aggressive does not equal inherently dangerous. dog aggressive does not equal human aggressive. yes, pit bulls are more dog aggressive than most breeds. there are other breeds who are also dog aggressive by nature- the akc breed standard for the akita mentions dog aggression, for example. but lots of dogs are dog aggressive-- everything from labradors to australian shepherds to jack russells. so what? are pit bulls more easily aroused than other dogs? some, probably. are they more likely to be dog aggressive? absolutely. are they tenacious? sure! but so are all the other terrier breeds. it's part of what being a terrier is all about. are they strong? sure! but so are a lot of other breeds. has their body signalling been changed? i'll buy that. but look at the border collie and the other herding breeds who give eye. i believe human aggression in the pit bull is, by and large, the product of crappy breeding. i believe any pit bull who shows aggression toward humans is unsound, and that most owners cannot safely own and manage these dogs. i believe dog aggression is largely inherent and that it can be moderated by socialization and training, but it cannot be socialized out of the pit bull and it is dangerous to assume that it can be. i do not think dog aggro dogs are inherently dangerous to humans given that they are owned responsibly. this means no dog parks, supervising the dogs at all times when outside as they're legendary escape artists, going to basic obedience class, etc. nothing earth-shattering.
	__________________ thank you to everyone who supported me during blogathon. i was able to raise $453.60 for pit bull rescue central!

11-24-2005, 08:26 PM	#4 (permalink)
hotrod41573 Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 34 Rep Power: 54	i agree sam. i have a friend who has two pit bulls. both of them will roll over and look up with there beautiful eyes and begg for you to rub there belly. they are not his frist pit bull and most likely not his last either. i totally trust these dogs around my son. no he is never alone with them. responsible owners are what this breed needs not people who will mistreat them or fight them. in itlay pit bulls were used to herd bulls.i still say blame the deed not the breed they are beautiful animals just like any other breed of dog. there has to be a way to make people see some of the good in these dogs.given a chance they can be heroes like any other breed. hotrod and diamond
hotrod41573 Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 34 Rep Power: 54

11-30-2005, 09:09 AM	#5 (permalink)
rutylr Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Sheboygan,WI Posts: 205 Rep Power: 63	I just made this for another list.It's about the history of fighting and pit bulls.You will see that they were not bred to kill back in the day.Owners loved and took care of their valued pets. American Pit Bull Terrier I wanted to do this a little different.I'm sure you all could look up where the breed came form and what the standard is.I want to tell you what the breed did and how it was done.As you know the APBT gets alot of bad press for fighting,but did you know they use to hold fights with rules and dogs earned titles.Fighting back then was not about killing. Just as a student of the Greyhound should learn something about dog-racing in order to more fully understand his breed and how it evolved,so should the person with a serious interest in the pit bull learn something about dog-fighting.If he finds the subject personally repugnant,he will "bite the bullet"and learn about it anyway,for if he really wants to understand the breed,he must learn the conditions of it's formation. What you most likley know about the breed. Mr C.B Bennet.a renowned Sportsman and Fancier,as well as Breeder,organized a stud book and registering office in 1898. He designated the breed name to be American Pit Bull Terrier.(APBT).Mr Bennet also established rules governing the pitting of dogs and set up the official breed standard as it stands today. The APBT is considered to be the most powerful dog, pound for pound ever developed,even though they are also known for their devotion and steady temperment with humans.The versatility of the breed is perhaps it's most outstanding feature. APBT-the direct desendant of countless generations of game dogs.Altho primarily famed as a fighter without equal,this breed has proved to be useful in predatory animal control and as a catch dog and guard dog-and it just happens that he makes an excellent house dog! American Staffordshire Terrier-The show counterpart of the APBT.Except for some of the game strains that are dual-registered. pit-bull-another nickname for the APBT,one that has been used for at least 200 years. Staffordshire Terrier-Former AKC name for the American Staffordshire Terrier. Yankee Terrier-A name that was concocted when the AKC refused to register the APBT under it's own name.For some reason this name too,was rejected. What you might not know. The UKC used to hold Sanctioned pit fights and they had rules and titles. Rules Governing Recognized Pit Contests. Whereas.It is the aim of the United Kennel Club Registering Office,it's members and the APBT Fraternity,to place" Pit Contest" upon a Recognized plane of Excellence and promote more and better contests,the Following rules have been adopted by the Fraternity and UKC Registering Offices. 1.Pit Contest to be recognized must employ a UKC licensed referee. 2.The principals may select any licensed UKC referee in good standing. 3.The Principals may select any fancier for the official timekeeper,but the selection must meet with the approvel of the referee. 4.A licensed referee shall not preside over any"Pit Contest" where one or both of the combat dogs are non-UKC registered "Cur" bloodlines. 5.The combat dogs must be UKC registered in their rightful owner's name and the referee shall make sure of this and be in possession of their registration certificates durning the contest. 6.The referee shall deliver to the UKC Registering Office a full and complete report of the contest within 5 days after the contest. 7.Any dog winning 3 moneyed contests held under these rules and presided over by the UKC licensed referee,shall have the degree of Champion conferred upon him by the UKC Registering Office and the Pit Bull Terrier Fraternity. 8.It shall be the duty of the official timekepper to keep a correct record of the time consumed in the contest by scratches,etc.,and he shall deliver the original time sheet(or a duplicate) to the referee immediately after the contest to be sent to the UKC registering office for record.It shall also be the duty of the official time keeper to call to the referee before the 25 seconds"Get Ready" and the 30 seconds"Let Go", and the referee shall act accordingly. 9.The full amount of the contest money shall be in the hands of the final stake holder before the referee shall order the dogs weighted.The referee shall order the dogs weighted 1 hour before the contest and they shall be weighted in the presence of the referee and the final stake holder of either dog exceeding the weight specified in the agreement shall forfeit then and there to his opponent all money posted. 10. After weighting the dogs the referee shall toss a coin for the Principals and the Principals winning the toss shall have his choice of haveing his dog washed (first or last)also his choice of the corner in the "Pit" 11.Each Principal shall furnish a sponge and two towels for washing and drying his opponents dog.Both dogs shall be washed in the center of the Pit with warm water and washing soda.15 minutes shall be allowed each Principal to wash his opponents dog.The time between washing each dog shall not exceed 5 minutes. 12. After washing and drying each dog shall be placed in the hands of a watchful fancier in the corner of the Pit selected or assigned to him and kept there untill the Principals are given the word "Let Go" by the referee.Each Principal shall "let go" his opponents dog at the start and thereafter shall handle their own dog. 13.There shall be only one container of water in the "Pit" for sponging between a "pick up" and a "scratch" and each Principal shall furnish a sponge 2 towels for sponging and drying his dog.The referee shall examine the sponges and water and have full charge of them at all time. 14.It shall be a fair"scratch in turn" contest.30 seconds shall be allowed between every "pick up" and "scratch" 25 seconds for sponging,drying and fanning,and 5 seconds to get ready. 15.To establish a fair"turn"which will entitle either Principal to "pick up".Both dogs must be free from holds and the dog which is accused of "turning" must have turned his head and shoulders from his opponent.Either Principal upon noticing this action may appeal to the referee and claim the "Turn" and if the claim be just and fair the referee shall immediately call a "pick up" and notify the other Principal it is his turn to scratch. 16.At 25 seconds the referee shall call"get ready" and at 30 seconds he shall call"let go"and the Ptincipal of the dog to scratch shall take his hands off his dog fair of his "scratch" his dog must go across the "pit" inside his opponents"scratch line" and mouth his opponent.Should the dog fail to go across and mouth his opponent he loses the con test and the refereee shall immediately announce the winner. 17.While ons dog is "scratching" the opponent shall hold his dog's head and shoulders fair between his legs just inside the "scratch line". 18.Should a dog while'scratching"become confused and sway to either side of the direct line to his opponent as long as he does not turn his head away from his opponent he is making a fair"scratch" 19.Should any outsider attract the dogs attantion while "scratching" and the dog,stop,or "scratch" the article or object instaed of his opponent,the referee shall immediately order the dog :scratched"over. 20.Should either dog become fanged,the referee shall order a "pick up" and allow the principal to unfang his dog, then immediately order them put down two feet apart and give the word"let go".This action does not have any connection with a "turn" or "scratch" and must not be considered so.Principals can un-fang their dogs with their hands without picking them up if the referee so decides. 21.Should a fair"turn and pick up" be made and the dogs accidentally get in a hold again,the referee shall order them parted and proceed in 30 seconds with the "scratch". 22.Principals shall be allowed to encourage their dogs by voice and actions.Should a Principal touch either dog with his hand,foot or other article while in action the the referee shall immediately call a foul ans announce his opponent the winner. 23.Principals shall take their hands off their dogs fair inside their "Scratch line".Should a principal push his dog over his "scratch line" the referee shall immediately call a foul and announce his opponent the winner. 24.Should a Principal pick his dog up without being told to by the referee.the referee shall immediately call a foul and announce his opponent the winner. 25.Should a Ptincipal leave his corner before the dogs have resumed action, the referee shall immediately call a foul and announce his opponent the winner. 26.Under no circumstances where a match is made and money posted,shall the money be returned without a contest.The Principal appearing for the shall be declared the winner and receive the "stake" money. 27.Should interference of any kind prevent a fair decisive contest, the Principals and the referee shall name the next time and place for the contest(within 15 days).Should the Principals and the referee fail to agree upon the future meeting place, it shall then be the duty of the referee to name the time and place and the same referee shall preside over this unfinished contest and the principals and the referee shall start this contest with "rule 3" 28.Any persons or persons found guilty of doping,faking,poisoning or attempting to dope,fake,poison or damage any dog or dogs,before,durning or after the contest,shall forfeit all money,fined $100 and be barred from the APBT Fraternity for a period of 3 years ,and a full report of such action shall be printed 2 times each year for a period 3 years in the June and Dec.Issues of the UKC official Journal,Bloodlines. 29.In all recognized contests the decisions of the UKC licensed Referee shall be final and all bets shall go as the "main stakes". 30.The "Pit" shall be 16 ft.square with sides two and one half feet high,with a tight wood floor.A line shall be painted across the center,also a scratch line painted across each Principals corner.To draw this scratch line, measure 7 ft out each way from the corner. My hope is that when reading this you learn that APBT where not bred to be an engine of distruction.I can sympathize with you and understand why you feel the way you do,but you do not know the breed! It would be hard to find a dog with a more dependable disposition with people.If raised in the house from puppyhood,an APBT will be a delightful house pet,amusing,roguish,and unbelievably lovable. The reason for the attacks on humans is because some people breed away from the standard and do not really care about the breed.APBT bred to the standard would never bite a person.If they did for what ever reason,a resposible breeder would never breed that dog. This is really a great breed it has just found it way into the wrong hands. Donna
	__________________ Donna's Dots Animal Artist http://www.donnasdots.zoomshare.com/ http://www.cafepress.com/donnasdots

11-30-2005, 10:29 AM	#7 (permalink)
rutylr Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Sheboygan,WI Posts: 205 Rep Power: 63	This was UKC not AKC.This was in the eary 1900's.Some people also don't know,but back in the day AKC held sactioned SchH trials,but because of the protection part(which not smart people call attack)they were put under pressure and stoped them. Some dogs I am leary around,but not affraid.Your dog can sence that and so can the other dog. I think(never really seeing one)it was way more noise then blood.It could not have been to bad if the people are standing right in the ring grabing the dogs when told to.Tosa's also have very strict rules in the way they can fight.If a dog fights unfairly then the fight is called. Donna
	__________________ Donna's Dots Animal Artist http://www.donnasdots.zoomshare.com/ http://www.cafepress.com/donnasdots

11-22-2005, 08:02 PM	#3 (permalink)
k9hullio_sam R.I.P. Baby Girl Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 1,861 Rep Power: 101	i think that the article is just A LITTLE biased. I have know golden retrievers that will bite your hands off if you touch it in the wrong spot. I also have met pitt bulls that are submissive to ANY dog, and as soon as it meets you will rool over on its back. I dont think that a dogs temperment has al whole buch to do with breedinh. yes, the pitt bull is more able to tear another dog apart, but if you are not training them to fight then they are not going to fight. When the breedwas created, that is what they were using them for, and yeah, you could probably be scared when you saw a pitt bull. but today, that is not the way it is, and i believe temperment is gained throught the dogs environment, not necessarily through the breed.(not saying that no temperment is passed on throught the generations, but i think that most of it gained from the environment.) You can not judge all dogs by what the breed used to be sam

11-30-2005, 09:31 AM	#6 (permalink)
mrsgrubby Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,476 Rep Power: 142	Donna, Wow, when was that that the matches were allowed? I just am so surprised that it was a AKC sanctioned event. I am a bit confused though. What exactly were they allowing? per the description I am not sure I understood what amount of violence was allowed. Fanging was not allowed, is that biting? Anyway, I admit I am afraid of pit bulls when I see them, however as you know, I have a rottweiller and many people are afraid of them. My fear stems from not knowing if the owner has properly trained or socialized them, and I don't want to take any chances. But then I am leary of anyone else's big rottie as well for the same reason.

12-02-2005, 08:11 AM	#9 (permalink)
sugarloafer22 Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 6 Rep Power: 53	Pits I think a huge part of the pit problem is that they have developed an image that attracts the wrong kind of people- aggressive and insecure people select and raise aggressive and insecure dogs. Many chose them to enhance their "tough guy" image. I personally would like to see the breed dissapear or be bred in a 100% different direction. When I say I'd like to see them dissapear I mean over time, and for the sake of the dogs themselves, not for our protection. I am sick of seeing pits bound to chains, abused, neglected, and ultimatly hurting another dog or human. My mother's sheltie was attacted and severely injured on a walk (in a very nice neighborhood mind you) by four pit bulls. A woman down the street breeds them, and not for any good reason, just because and to make a few extra bucks. They dug a hole out from under her fence. One dog harassed a kid at the nearby apartment complex on a seperate day, then the other day is when the 4 of them (who in their RIGHT mind owns 4 pits - unaltered- again the wrong people attracted to them) attacked my mom's dog. She got out with lacerations and her skin had been torn away from her tissue and had to be surgically repaired, but ultimatly she was fine thanks to that thick coat. But there is my opinion on pits. They can be nice dogs, but they are always going to be at risk and usually in the wrong hands.
sugarloafer22 Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 6 Rep Power: 53

12-02-2005, 01:15 PM	#13 (permalink)
sammy herding dog lover Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: western canada Posts: 1,089 Rep Power: 111	I agree whole heartedly with Elegy. People seem to get confused between dog-dog aggression and aggression towards humans which are completely different. Pit bulls have been bred for decades to be dog aggressive and not human aggressive. This is no different than getting a border collie and wanting it not to herd things- sometimes it's a hard wired trait/ instinct. What's scary to me is when people think if they buy/adopt a pit pup and love it and socialise it properly it will never be dog aggressive. They might get lucky but often they do not. Then when the dog aggression appears around 18 months to 2 yrs of age, they make all sorts of excuses or worse- say "the dog has sanapped and gone crazy" and have the dog PTS. People need to do breed research- if you don't want to deal with dogg-dog aggression, don't get a pit or any of the other breeds that tend to have that as a trait.

12-02-2005, 03:49 PM	#14 (permalink)
gaddylovesdogs don't have a cow! Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: USA Posts: 3,426 Rep Power: 151	I think a pit's personality depends both on it's breeding and it's owner. If you breed two aggressive dogs you're going to end up with puppies that are more aggressive than a puppy who's parents have wonderful temperaments. I would be more careful around a pit bull with bad breeding. And there are a lot of people who don't train or badly train their pit bulls. But I think that pits are wonderful animals. The ones I have met were sweethearts. They are more likely to be dog aggressive, because that's what they were bred to be. If they're aggressive towards humans, that's a problem, because they weren't meant to act aggressively towards their owners.