Attention RAW food Feeder's! F.Y.I

[shandoggy1]

Okay, I'm not sure if this topic will be more of a (debate) or not but I wasn't sure if it should go here or there so I am starting it here I just picked up a bag of Innova Evo and also a brochure on all of the details, ingredients, etc. I was reading something interesting about how this food came to be and personally I have always been a little skeptic on feeding a raw diet so I have been researching alot of dry foods and found Innova to be the best. It says right on the bag "What to feed when you can't feed raw" Anyways, this food was created by Dr. Wendell O. Belfield, DVM for over 30 years and he was also a USDA veterinarian meat Inspector for 7 years he is also an author on animal nutrition & health. I am only going to type some of the article he wrote about his concern of feeding a raw diet because it is pretty long.

His first concern is contamination by salmonella and listeria species of bacteria, these are killer organisms. True the early animals in the wild did consume their meat raw; but how many became ill? How many died? At what age did they die? Our domesticated dogs and cats are living much longer lives than their wild counterparts ever did.

His second concern is this: Due to domestication, we have permitted the weaker of the two species to not only survive, but to propogate thereby producing weak off springs. These animals have difficulty, among other breed related dysfunctions, in utilizing raw meat diets. A manifestation of this is vomiting. These same animals on a blood test will show below normal cholesterol levels which indicates poor absorption of the consumed meat protein. An analogy in humans, is not all humans can be vegetarians.

His biggest concern is related to the larval form of a tapeworm Echinococcus granulosus which is often found in most parts of the body, especially the liver and lungs, during post mortem inspection of beef carcasses. This larva has its intermediate hosts, man, sheep, cattle, and swine. Since the adult tapeworm has been recently found in the dog, cat, fox, and some other wild carnivores, it is reasonable to postulate that consuming the larvae of this tapeworm can and will infect the dog and cat, which then develops into the adult tapeworm in its new host.

He then says: As a Veterinarian for thirty-seven years and a Veterinary meat inspector for seven years, I, in good conscience, cannot recommend raw meat diets to my clients. His advice to his clients is "cook the meat until the redness is gone". When this is done, there is no vomiting, the cholesterol level is normal; the risk of infection by micro-organisms and parasites diminishes micronutrients upon which they evolved.

So what do you think? I know alot of people feed raw diets on GP an thought I would share this information with everyone. Like I said, I personally was never a big fan of the raw diet because I always thought about all the nasty things we can get from uncooked meats and would feel like I was doing more harm than good to my dog.

I actually typed the whole page info! Whew! My carpel-tunnel hurts LOL!

[APBTlover]

I personally love feeding a raw diet. Dogs digestive systems are a lot different than ours. I always make sure I clean the meats before I give them to my dogs and make sure that they dont sit out for long periods of times. I have never had a problem with it and have had GREAT results with it thus far. Though I have only been feeding it for 2 years, all 7 of my dogs are on it, and Paws was put on the raw diet when he was 6 years old, and he loves it.



*~!Ashelee!~*
@ Brayden Kennels

[KennelMom]

It says right on the bag "What to feed when you can't feed raw"

Well.........of course they don't want you to feed raw! They WANT you to buy their dog food!

[shandoggy1]

Originally Posted by KennelMom

Well.........of course they don't want you to feed raw! They WANT you to buy their dog food!

Whatever, I was just sharing what I read and thought I would share it with everyone else, I found it interesting. Also if anyone knows what is the oldest lived dog that ate a strictly raw meat diet I would like to know. (wink)

[GSD]

HMMM, a vet working for a company selling kibble type dog food has some bad things to say about RAW. You don't say. Nothing I haven't heard before. I like EVO, if I fed kibble I would probably feed that, but I don't so anyway. It doesn't suprise me that they have somebody to say these things. I do agree with propagating a weaker type of dog thru domestication and breeding practices, so if your dog doesn't do well on RAW, then find something they do well on. More often that not, I seem to see dogs that have troubles with all kinds of Kibble foods and then do well on RAW, but to each his own.

His first two concerns of listeria and salmonella, well let them be concerns of his, and of course they are pretty big buzz words with the american public. Almost all cleaners advertise that they kill these two BacT so they are pretty well known by name by the public as "bad" things. Listeria is found in the environment pretty readily so if you think by feeding kibble you're "protecting" your pet, you've been mislead. Salmonella isn't really a concern. My dogs GI tract is short (not much chance for the BacT to do any harm, and Higher in PH than humans) But they're too big buzz words that catch John Q. Public's attention.

E. granulosus isn't exactly new to canines, in fact its been part of its natural lifecycle for probably as long as there have been canines on this earth. Nice try, but think of something better to scare me with next time. In the meantime I prefer to feed with things that I know what they actually are. I have one for the vet though. Since he's big into scare tactics to persuade people into feeding kibble over RAW, and I know that salmonella happens in kibble all the time, ask him what the chances of my dog dying from aflotxins in my RAW diet are?? I'll be here awaiting his answer.

[Lexus11]

Good point Kennelmom!

Although I am relatively new to the RAW diet, only about 6 to 8 months now, I'll tell you, my dog suffers much less problems now then she did on kibble. Her skin, coat, teeth, breath, stools, and energy are enough to convince me. And she has yet to vomit even once since switching. I switched my other two dogs about 2 months after Lexus, and they exhibited all the same remarkable changes too.

I believe each to their own, and if someone thinks kibble is the best for their dogs, then by all means feed kibble. I just think after my own research that RAW is best for my dogs. The key is to make sure to balance their diet too, you can't just feed ground beef (just an example).

I just have to say IMHO that you must make sure you get the meat from reputable sources, store and handle it correctly. With all this done as it should be, than this Dr's view on this is more of a scare tactic to keep people buying his dog food instead of feeding raw.

*edit to add* Hehe, I was still typing when you posted GSD, guess great minds think alike with the "scare tactic" thing huh??

[Shalva]

this always cracks me up... the same old tired arguments.... well the oldest living dog on raw cant tell ya but I can tell you that I have been feeding raw for 6 yes SIX years now.... feeding raw before it was stylish or well known to do so.... and for six years I have been hearing the same old tired arguments... what I dont understand is why this comes up...... I don't go and espouse the horrors of kibble on a regular basis and let me tell ya I think its all junk and I cringe when I see people walk out of petco with a big ole honkin bag of pro plan..... yet periodically someone feels the need to rehash the same old sorry arguments about raw and they very rarely consider the source..... a vet badmouthing raw foods.... gee never heard of that before.... or gosh a pet food company that doesn't want me to feed raw.....

soooo ok about evo..... its a fine food if you are going to feed kibble.... personally though .... a few months back I was going on a three week cross canada trip with four of my raw fed dogs.... on our way to a national specialty and for the life of me I couldn't figure out how to pack enough raw food for four dogs for 3 weeks... keeping it cold and safe to eat.... not to mention getting it across the border..... so for three weeks my dogs ate California Natural....it was the lightest easiest, fewest ingredients dog food I could find.... and it just about killed me... the dogs thought it was great but hey they eat poop and figured their mom had lost her mind and was feeding them bowls full of treats..... so ok even I eat mcdonalds sometimes..... and the second we got home they went back on their regular raw diet and I threw away the kibble..... so ok it served its purpose but a regular diet of that no way.....

I was just reading today about Diamond and the troubles they are having.... do you know that Diamond manufactures alot of foods for alot of other brands..... ???? shoot I will have to go and find the email.... but I know that kirkland was one of them..... along with van pattens, solid gold and a few others..... In my house I and only I am responsible for what goes into my dogs systems..... not some manufacturer out in california.... I don't have to trust that my dogs health and well being are dependant on what someone feels is appropriate for them at some manufacturer....

I can also add that we are talking about a bag of food that even an expensive bag costs 40 bucks for 35 lbs roughly with a shelf life of at least six months.... so tell me at a buck a pound how good can the ingredients be????? and be honest......

Sooooo ok...... read and consider the source of what you read..... after six years of feeding raw.... we have never had a problem with any of the bacteria that you mention.... we have puppies weaned onto raw that have grown to be healthy and are finishing their championships so they are obviously growing correctly....the dogs have no health problems and connors allergies have all but gone away.....

Evo isnt a bad food as far as kibbles go and I have already said what I think about kibble..... so look everyone should feed what they feel comfortable with.... and I promise not to let you see me cringe at the checkout line.
S

[shandoggy1]

I don't look at what he was saying as a "scare tactic" but just some "concerns" he has about people feeding raw meat to there dogs. Okay here is more....Once pet owners started re-thinking about better nutrition for there dogs they switched to a higher quality pet food, some began cooking for their pets and others switched to raw meat diets. It was very obvious that these changes made a dramatic positive effect in these companion animals. One of the most prominent changes was in skin and hair coat. Previously, many of these animals, allergic to commercial pet foods, had persistent skin problems. Because of these positive changes, it was hypothesized by some, since the pets responded positively to raw meat diets and since the early ancestors had consumed their meat raw, then this is natural for the domestic dog and cat. And in some respects they are correct.......THEN it gets into the doctors CONCERN of feeding a raw meat diet which I should have posted this first oh well, I guess I screwed up but I'm only human ! lol! Anyways, I'm gonna go "COOK" me a steak for dinner and give a slab to the dog! lol to each his own!

[shandoggy1]

Boy did I strike a nerve with some of you people! Gee's calm down can't someone post something they have read and share the info. I didn't think it would be such a touchy subject . So you feed your dogs a hunk of raw meat, good for you all. I can't afford to buy meat for my dogs I'm lucky I can afford Innova for crying out loud!

[AlaskanKristen]

People tend to get really emotional about raw food. On another forum I posted about how I wasn't too sure of raw food, and accidently started a huge fight between the supporters and the non-supporters. Basically, the safest thing I've found is to recommend what you think is best when someone asks what to feed their dog, and try not to mention anything bad about raw .

[APBTlover]

for me, buying raw meat isnt actually the same price as if I were to buy kibble. Again for a high quality bag of food it costs, like shalva said, about a dollar a pound, well with 7 dogs (all would be eating differnet stages and different types since I have show dogs, puppies, senior dogs, and just the regular house dog, oh and performance dogs who tend to not be able to keep weight on that well). It would cost me a lot more than what I am paying for meat and such now. Though me being the only one in my town buying meat for my dogs (raw diet isnt too popular where I am) I get deals and such with our wonderful butcher at the local supermarket.

All I am saying is that the things he stated arent really a big concern for raw feeders, if you do it the right way, it is (in my opinion) the best diet you can feed your dog.



*~!Ashelee!~*
@ Brayden Kennels

[GSD]

Originally Posted by AlaskanKristen

Basically, the safest thing I've found is to recommend what you think is best when someone asks what to feed their dog, and try not to mention anything bad about raw .

Now what type of response are you really looking for??

Basically someone posts something about some "concerns" a vet has that works for a kibble company. A very biased opinion no matter what side of the fence you're on, and you see them as concerns, I see them as scare tactics. I've had my share of experience with people in the human health industry and they know very well that nothing motivates people like FEAR. they exploit it and use it at every opportunity they can. If you chose not to believe this, then well, don't. You know very well, that if I were a scientist on here working for Ian Billinghurst and told you of my "concerns" of Aflatoxins killing animals and salmonella posioning that can happen by feeding bags of kibble. And I'd say things like cancer rates have gone up since kibble foods have become popular, and kibble foods will cause allergies, they cause diabetes in dogs and thyroid problems, etc, You know darn well that people feeding kibble would get emotional and defend their choice for feeding kibble.

likewise, when we're subjected to the same tired arguements by a company that stands to lose money by people not buying their product, well i'm not really sure what type of response you're looking for.

[Owned by Lucy]

Originally Posted by shandoggy1

His first concern is contamination by salmonella and listeria species of bacteria, these are killer organisms.

He then says: His advice to his clients is "cook the meat until the redness is gone". When this is done, there is no vomiting, the cholesterol level is normal; the risk of infection by micro-organisms and parasites diminishes micronutrients upon which they evolved.

Ok first I will address the comment about the salmonella, listeria and other bacteria (strep, staph, E.coli and many others). These "bugs" are everywhere, on nearly every surface on this planet, including kibble. The ones mentioned have only one or two strains (out of thousands and manybe millions) that can lead to a life threatening conditions and because of the virility of these strains they are limited in their ability to spread. Also any bacteria can be a "killer organism" is a suseptable person or animal.

Second, about cooking meat until "all the red is gone." That is crazy!!!! Sorry but I don't even cook meat that well done for me, I like beef medium rare and pork medium. I do cook poultry to medium well but because I don't like the texture of it cooked less not because I am concerned about bacteria. Also in "whole" meats (not ground) bacteria will on ly be on the outside surface so if you are worried a quick, simple rinse in hot water will take care of those. In the US, trich and other cystic parasites that were common in meats are nearly non-existant now and if found the animals are removed from the human food supply (which is where most get the food for their dogs and cats) and are likely to get put into kibbles with the other "triple D" animals.

The oldest dog I know of on a raw diet was Aussie Shephard that died at 28 in New Zealand after being hit by a car. His owners and vet reported that he was still healthy and active and would have probably live several more years if he had not been hit. He also has never had a vaccination and comes from a long line (8 generations back) of raw fed dogs with no vaccations. Becuase of this he also has the benefit of not having inherited the damage from vaccine and poor food from his predicessors.

[elegy]

Originally Posted by shandoggy1

I can't afford to buy meat for my dogs I'm lucky I can afford Innova for crying out loud!

it definitely costs me less to feed raw (and i buy everything at the food store) than it does for me to feed evo. hands down. evo is really freaking expensive.

[Shalva]

I am not sure what response they are looking for either.... however....
the problem as I see it..... is that what I feed my dogs is constantly under attack.... I am tired of hearing abotu these bugs.... from folks that have no clue or have a vested interest in scaring me from feeding what I feel is the best diet.... I dont feel the need to condemn people for feeding kibble... I dont feel the need to espouse the problems with kibbles at every turn yet somehow folks feel the need to espouse the dangers of raw diets when they really have very little idea about what any of us are doing or feeding....
Every time someone discusses kibble I dont jump into the post and tell them how horrible kibble is and I really do think it is junk.....

nor do I feel the need to start a topic about how kibble is junk..... yet I don't for the life of me understand why people feel the need to start these discussions about how terrible raw is based on something read off the back of a kibble bag.

If someone can tell me something bad about raw "based in fact" and not the fears of veterinarians or fears of a manufacturer losing money but something that is legit.... then talk to me....

in the meantime you feed what you want and I will feed what I want and while I will respect others decisions to feed kibble then I expect the same respect for my decision to feed what I see as the best diet for my dogs.... without having to defend that decision constantly.
S