Overvaccination--what should I know?

TinyAlbinoDancer · 08-29-2007, 07:34 PM

Ollie and Missie are both due (overdue, actually) for the DHLPPC vaccine and I feel utterly confused as to what to do in light of all the information I'm reading. I plan to make an appt. to sit down with my vet and discuss what she recommends, but the techs and receptionists I asked were totally unaware of the "new" protocol recommended by that veterinary organization I can't remember right now... AAVHA? So I don't have high hopes as to what my vet recommends as being current. I'm also confused about the necessity of the Bordatella (vet tech practically jumped on me with a resounding YES) and Coronovirus vaccines as Ollie is supposedly due for those as well.

What questions should I ask my vet? Are there some articles that might help me wade through all this information? Thanks for any help.

Kuchi · 08-29-2007, 08:43 PM

Well I only do bordatella because I do put Kuchi in boarding and daycare and its required. As with other vaccinations I will test titers, than overvaccinate. I know its much more expensive than vaccinating, but I don't want to risk overvaccination. I usually get my cats vaccinated every 3 years, I have 4 of them so to get titers on all will be quite pricy. Vets do make their money on vaccines, so be cautious, I'm sure they'll say: well you could do a titer but vaccines are so much cheaper! Is the coronovirus the C in the DHLPPC vaccine? I think it might be.

Questions for vet: Cost of titers? Are you aware that pets are being overvaccinated?

Novel · 08-29-2007, 10:30 PM

Some articles by leading vaccination researchers, dr ronald schultz UW-Madison Veterinary School and Dr W Jean Dodds, DVM, of California.

http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODD...-PROTOCOLS.HTM
http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/petvacc.htm
http://www.doglogic.com/vaccination.htm
http://www.news.wisc.edu/8413.html

Quote:

Dr. Ronald D. Schultz, Ph.D..- "Annual revaccination provides no benefit and may increase the risk for adverse reactions. The percentage of vaccinated animals (those vaccinated only as puppies) protected from clinical disease after challenge with canine distemper virus, canine parvovirus and canine adenovirus in the study was greater than 95%." Current and Future Canine and Feline Vaccination Programs. Dr. Ronald Schultz is a Professor and Chair of the Department of Pathobiological Sciences at the School of Veterinary Medicine, UW-Madison. Schultz, R.D. - Current and Future Canine and Feline Vaccination Programs. Vet Med 3: No. 3, 233-254, 1998

Quote:

W. Jean Dodds, DVM, is an internationally recognized authority on thyroid issues in dogs and blood diseases in animals. In the mid-1980's she founded Hemopet, the first nonprofit blood bank for animals. Dr. Dodds is a grantee of the National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute, and author of over 150 research publications. Through Hemopet she provides canine blood components and blood-bank supplies throughout North America, consults in clinical pathology, and lectures worldwide.

qwertyasu · 08-30-2007, 05:41 AM

arr...that makes me soo mad I wish we could trust our vets!!

TinyAlbinoDancer · 08-30-2007, 04:09 PM

Oh I totally forgot. I got a price estimate for titers, but the lab only titers for parvo and distemper, and I'd vaccinate for those anyway (core vaccines, tech said vet absolutely recommends them because she sees alot of cases of both around here). The problem is not being able to figure which other vaccines to do and how often.

Qwertyasu- Vets are only human.

Kuchi · 08-30-2007, 05:35 PM

As a combo shot you will be doing them all at once anyways. But if the titer shows that the parvo and distemper is still protected, why would you vaccinate for those anyway? Just because the vet tech says she sees a lot doesn't mean you dog isn't protected from the last time he was vaccinated.
Overvaccination means, to me anyways, vaccinating against a disease where the animal still has antibody to, that can be from parvo to coronavirus. Of course the vet tech will tell you to get them, they are trained to say that. DHLLP includes: Distemper, Hepatitis, Leptospirosis, Parainfluenza, Parvovirus and Bordatella. Most vets will not just give a distemper shot or just a parvovirus shot. When you ask for a parvo shot, you will most likely get the whole combo. So if your dog had the combo before, I would say the titers are good on all of the above.
I doubt antibody from parvo will leave the body after 1 year. I remember reading in some dogs the titers were in good numbers their whole life after the 1 year shot.
And I don't believe in the giardia vaccines, some puppies have already had giardia has a young puppy and giardia is usually not life threatening, some diarrhea and some dehydration. I don't know much about the lyme disease vaccine, I found this about lyme disease vaccine: http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_lyme_disease.html

TinyAlbinoDancer · 08-30-2007, 05:50 PM

That was another thing I need to ask: can I get just distemper and parvo. I'm under the impression I can but haven't asked my particular vet. The titer was, unfortunately, about 4 times the cost of the vaccine. A Greyhound owner also told me that the titers aren't always accurate?

qwertyasu · 08-30-2007, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Qwertyasu- Vets are only human.

I know-its to bad isn't it? It is upsetting how people don't believe that though, or at least don't act like it!

Kuchi · 08-31-2007, 09:43 AM

I believe the titer will give a measurement. Now testing immunity isn't fully clear because if the dog was infected recently, it will have a high number because of the antibodies in the system. If a titer is done, the vet should know what level is good and what level is too low. It doesn't give a yes or no. Like blood tests, there's a range that you want to be in. There is a percent error like in all tests, but that should be factored in.

Novel · 09-01-2007, 03:20 AM

That is a popular belief, but new evidence, primarily that of Dr Ronald Schulz says that a titer showing any antibody level is good, once a dog has been vaccinated. A dog showing a very low antibody level may be what is considered a low-reactor, and may always have a low antibody response, no matter how many vaccinations. The other type would be a non-reactor, who, no matter how many times they would be vaccinated, would never develop antibodies for a specific disease, and a non reactor for rabies may have normal antibody reaction for distemper and parvo.

Larson, L.J. and Schultz, R.D. A Comparison of Selected Canine Vaccines for Their Ability to Induce Protective Immunity Against CPV-2. Am. J. Vet. Res. 58(4):360-363, 1997

Schultz, R.D., Current and Future Canine and Feline Vaccination Programs, Vet. Med. March, 1998

Tonka's Mom · 09-01-2007, 06:55 AM

I work in a animal hospital and we vaccinate yearly. This is how we do it:
Bordetella: first one is good for 6 months second one is good for 1 year.

Corona: First one good for 3 weeks, second one good for 1 year.

DHPP/LA: These as a puppy get a series of 4 three weeks apart the fourth one is made good for a year.

DHPP/HA: After there year is up with the DHPP/LA we booster with the DHPP/HA and make it good for 3 years.

Leptospirosis:Gets his vaccine when they get there HA and made good for a year.

Gairdia: First one good for 3 weeks second good for 1 year

Lyme: First one good for 3 weeks second one good for 1 year

Rabies: First one good for one year, if boostered on time the second one will be good for 3 years.

The yearly vaccines are boostered yearly.

Novel · 09-01-2007, 09:14 PM

That is the "traditional" vaccine protocol, and WAY TOO MANY vaccinations of the core vaccines and a number of unnecessary ones as well.

wehkah · 09-03-2007, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tonka's Mom

Bordetella: first one is good for 6 months second one is good for 1 year.

Corona: First one good for 3 weeks, second one good for 1 year.

DHPP/LA: These as a puppy get a series of 4 three weeks apart the fourth one is made good for a year.

DHPP/HA: After there year is up with the DHPP/LA we booster with the DHPP/HA and make it good for 3 years.

Leptospirosis:Gets his vaccine when they get there HA and made good for a year.

Gairdia: First one good for 3 weeks second good for 1 year

Lyme: First one good for 3 weeks second one good for 1 year

Rabies: First one good for one year, if boostered on time the second one will be good for 3 years.

The yearly vaccines are boostered yearly.

I have to agree with Novel on this one! WAY too many! And add that Lepto is not usually good for a full year and many dogs have alergic reactions with this vaccine. Unless absolutly necessary because there is a risk of infection in your area I personally would never give this vaccine.

The articles that Novel suggested are very GOOD reads and I think more people should be aware of what their giving their dogs and the possible long tearm reactions that could be a result of overvaccinating your animals.

Think of it this way do we vaccinate our children every year against diseases?? The only one I can think of that comes around every year is the flu shot and honestly that's about as good as giving a dog a vaccination for bordatella. It may protect against a certain strain but not all so your dog can still get bordatella even though you vaccinated them for it. They could also be immune to bordatella after their series of puppy shots so why then keep vaccinating them for it? IMO titers are the way to go.

Tonka's Mom · 09-04-2007, 10:24 PM

Well it all depends on who you ask some think it's voer vaccinating others dont. I would rather have my dog over protected then not enough. All 3 of my dogs get ther yearly vaccines, Taitum is still to small but she will.

Kuchi · 09-05-2007, 08:50 AM

Tonka I would recommend those readings that Novel posted. They talk about the argument on yearly vaccines. If you choose to continue annual or not that's of course is up to you. Since you do work at a vet I would assume that you get a discount so the titer's would be cheaper for you if you chose the titer situation. Just something to think about.

08-29-2007, 07:34 PM	#1 (permalink)
TinyAlbinoDancer Always room for one more Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: CA Posts: 2,577 Rep Power: 166	Overvaccination--what should I know? Ollie and Missie are both due (overdue, actually) for the DHLPPC vaccine and I feel utterly confused as to what to do in light of all the information I'm reading. I plan to make an appt. to sit down with my vet and discuss what she recommends, but the techs and receptionists I asked were totally unaware of the "new" protocol recommended by that veterinary organization I can't remember right now... AAVHA? So I don't have high hopes as to what my vet recommends as being current. I'm also confused about the necessity of the Bordatella (vet tech practically jumped on me with a resounding YES) and Coronovirus vaccines as Ollie is supposedly due for those as well. What questions should I ask my vet? Are there some articles that might help me wade through all this information? Thanks for any help.
	__________________ ~Karen Missie~Trixie~Little Guy~Ollie

08-30-2007, 05:41 AM	#4 (permalink)
qwertyasu Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 101 Rep Power: 0	arr...that makes me soo mad I wish we could trust our vets!!
qwertyasu Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 101 Rep Power: 0

08-30-2007, 04:09 PM	#5 (permalink)
TinyAlbinoDancer Always room for one more Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: CA Posts: 2,577 Rep Power: 166	Oh I totally forgot. I got a price estimate for titers, but the lab only titers for parvo and distemper, and I'd vaccinate for those anyway (core vaccines, tech said vet absolutely recommends them because she sees alot of cases of both around here). The problem is not being able to figure which other vaccines to do and how often. Qwertyasu- Vets are only human.
	__________________ ~Karen Missie~Trixie~Little Guy~Ollie

08-30-2007, 05:35 PM	#6 (permalink)
Kuchi Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 379 Rep Power: 48	Combo shot As a combo shot you will be doing them all at once anyways. But if the titer shows that the parvo and distemper is still protected, why would you vaccinate for those anyway? Just because the vet tech says she sees a lot doesn't mean you dog isn't protected from the last time he was vaccinated. Overvaccination means, to me anyways, vaccinating against a disease where the animal still has antibody to, that can be from parvo to coronavirus. Of course the vet tech will tell you to get them, they are trained to say that. DHLLP includes: Distemper, Hepatitis, Leptospirosis, Parainfluenza, Parvovirus and Bordatella. Most vets will not just give a distemper shot or just a parvovirus shot. When you ask for a parvo shot, you will most likely get the whole combo. So if your dog had the combo before, I would say the titers are good on all of the above. I doubt antibody from parvo will leave the body after 1 year. I remember reading in some dogs the titers were in good numbers their whole life after the 1 year shot. And I don't believe in the giardia vaccines, some puppies have already had giardia has a young puppy and giardia is usually not life threatening, some diarrhea and some dehydration. I don't know much about the lyme disease vaccine, I found this about lyme disease vaccine: http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_lyme_disease.html
	Last edited by Kuchi : 08-30-2007 at 05:43 PM.

08-30-2007, 05:50 PM	#7 (permalink)
TinyAlbinoDancer Always room for one more Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: CA Posts: 2,577 Rep Power: 166	That was another thing I need to ask: can I get just distemper and parvo. I'm under the impression I can but haven't asked my particular vet. The titer was, unfortunately, about 4 times the cost of the vaccine. A Greyhound owner also told me that the titers aren't always accurate?
	__________________ ~Karen Missie~Trixie~Little Guy~Ollie

08-29-2007, 08:43 PM	#2 (permalink)
Kuchi Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 379 Rep Power: 48	Well I only do bordatella because I do put Kuchi in boarding and daycare and its required. As with other vaccinations I will test titers, than overvaccinate. I know its much more expensive than vaccinating, but I don't want to risk overvaccination. I usually get my cats vaccinated every 3 years, I have 4 of them so to get titers on all will be quite pricy. Vets do make their money on vaccines, so be cautious, I'm sure they'll say: well you could do a titer but vaccines are so much cheaper! Is the coronovirus the C in the DHLPPC vaccine? I think it might be. Questions for vet: Cost of titers? Are you aware that pets are being overvaccinated?

08-31-2007, 09:43 AM	#9 (permalink)
Kuchi Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 379 Rep Power: 48	I believe the titer will give a measurement. Now testing immunity isn't fully clear because if the dog was infected recently, it will have a high number because of the antibodies in the system. If a titer is done, the vet should know what level is good and what level is too low. It doesn't give a yes or no. Like blood tests, there's a range that you want to be in. There is a percent error like in all tests, but that should be factored in.

09-01-2007, 03:20 AM	#10 (permalink)
Novel Mush Face Lover Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 4,974 Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 220	That is a popular belief, but new evidence, primarily that of Dr Ronald Schulz says that a titer showing any antibody level is good, once a dog has been vaccinated. A dog showing a very low antibody level may be what is considered a low-reactor, and may always have a low antibody response, no matter how many vaccinations. The other type would be a non-reactor, who, no matter how many times they would be vaccinated, would never develop antibodies for a specific disease, and a non reactor for rabies may have normal antibody reaction for distemper and parvo. Larson, L.J. and Schultz, R.D. A Comparison of Selected Canine Vaccines for Their Ability to Induce Protective Immunity Against CPV-2. Am. J. Vet. Res. 58(4):360-363, 1997 Schultz, R.D., Current and Future Canine and Feline Vaccination Programs, Vet. Med. March, 1998
	__________________ ~~~My Blog~~~

09-01-2007, 06:55 AM	#11 (permalink)
Tonka's Mom Neo's 4 Me Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Phoenix, A.Z Posts: 52 Rep Power: 29	I work in a animal hospital and we vaccinate yearly. This is how we do it: Bordetella: first one is good for 6 months second one is good for 1 year. Corona: First one good for 3 weeks, second one good for 1 year. DHPP/LA: These as a puppy get a series of 4 three weeks apart the fourth one is made good for a year. DHPP/HA: After there year is up with the DHPP/LA we booster with the DHPP/HA and make it good for 3 years. Leptospirosis:Gets his vaccine when they get there HA and made good for a year. Gairdia: First one good for 3 weeks second good for 1 year Lyme: First one good for 3 weeks second one good for 1 year Rabies: First one good for one year, if boostered on time the second one will be good for 3 years. The yearly vaccines are boostered yearly.

09-01-2007, 09:14 PM	#12 (permalink)
Novel Mush Face Lover Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 4,974 Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 220	That is the "traditional" vaccine protocol, and WAY TOO MANY vaccinations of the core vaccines and a number of unnecessary ones as well.
	__________________ ~~~My Blog~~~

09-04-2007, 10:24 PM	#14 (permalink)
Tonka's Mom Neo's 4 Me Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Phoenix, A.Z Posts: 52 Rep Power: 29	Well it all depends on who you ask some think it's voer vaccinating others dont. I would rather have my dog over protected then not enough. All 3 of my dogs get ther yearly vaccines, Taitum is still to small but she will.

09-05-2007, 08:50 AM	#15 (permalink)
Kuchi Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 379 Rep Power: 48	Tonka I would recommend those readings that Novel posted. They talk about the argument on yearly vaccines. If you choose to continue annual or not that's of course is up to you. Since you do work at a vet I would assume that you get a discount so the titer's would be cheaper for you if you chose the titer situation. Just something to think about.

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