Vetting a stray. What do I do first?

[TinyAlbinoDancer]

"Little Guy" (aka dog of many names, since everyone in my family calls him something different!) is officially mine now. I started calling around today for estimates for a neuter, but realized he's going to need to be vaccinated first, and may need to see a vet for a wellness exam before that, as he remains pretty skinny.

What would you do first with a young stray you have no history on? Wellness exam-vaccs-neuter? Should I worry about worms? The least expensive neuter requires proof of every vaccination, and Little Guy was an unexpected expense so I'm trying to keep costs down. Plus, I've never figured out what vaccs and on what schedule I'm giving my own dogs, so I don't know what to do for him either!

So what would you do/recommend?? Thanks so much for any help! I really appreciate it!

[Carrie]

How old do you guess he is? Does he seem sickly or wormy? I am personally very leery of vaccines if they've been done on him already at one time when he was a pup. I'm one of those who just doesn't do it except with pups to get them started with making their own antibodies. It appears that people have been way over doing the vaccines and there are a lot of studies that make a correlation between a lot of the cancers and other immune problems and the heavy use of vaccines.

Usually puppies are the ones prone to worms, but you could ask your vet. I'm planning on taking this beagle I just acquired to the humane society for neutering. They typically charge less. I will avoid vaccinating him if possible as he's past the young puppy stage where they're more prone to things like parvo. I suppose the vaccine requirements vary from place to place.

I guess if you're in doubt, have the vet give him a full exam or talk it over with the vet first. Good luck.

[dogs4life]

I vote for a full physical exam, fecal exam, blood work and heartworm test first, wait on the neuter and vaccines till you know he's healthy enough to handle the stress of anesthesia and vaccinations if you choose to vaccinate.

[TinyAlbinoDancer]

Carrie, he appears to be young, but full grown. Maybe around a year or so? That's one thing I plan to ask the vet. I have no experience with worms, and my only concern is that he is skinny (I'm going to start feeding him a small third meal a day and told my family to feel free to give him treats for a little while just to make sure he will gain weight. That way when we talk to the vet we can address that if he's skinny AND not able to gain weight).

I have no way of knowing if he ever had puppy shots or any vaccines before, which is the main reason I'm considering it (that and him possibly needing at least rabies for licensing and possibly some of the other vaccs to be neutered). I printed out the 2006 AAHA vaccine guidelines and have been perusing them. The reason I'm asking you guys about vaccinations is that I have a feeling my vet will recommend them all. She and I discussed vaccines and how she felt about over-vaccination, and she still seems to take the "better safe than sorry" approach, but didn't criticize me for choosing not to get Missie's annual booster this year (actually this past year, as I let it go). So I wanted you guys opinion on what you'd do for a dog that you just don't know what vaccines it's had, if any. Would over-vaccinating him once really do too much harm?

Dogs4Life, I need a budget-friendly plan here. lol The exam, fecal and blood work would run me around $200, and then he's still got to be neutered ($40 + proof of multiple vaccines, $$$, or $70 with no vaccines). We don't typically deal with heartworm around here because we don't even have mosquitoes, and even down in more lush areas the vets aren't recommending heartworm preventative. I think I will try to get him into my vet for an exam, so I can ask questions about his age and such. I want to see if I can get him to gain weight before we go in, though.

So to re-phrase my question, how would you go about vaccinating a young dog if you had no idea of his vaccination history?

[dogs4life]

IMO, bare minimum, if you have to get him neutered ASAP...$100-150 neuter (not low cost so you don't need all the vaccines) and $15 for 3 yr rabies vaccine. Next time you have extra cash do the heartworm SNAP test for $20-30 since he's of unknown origin and a fecal if you suspect parasites.

If the dog had parasites you'd see some sign, you'd see loose stool or diarrhea, cramping, coughing visible worms or eggs sacs in the stool and/or anus. Tapeworms will be visible, egg sacs (crawling white rice) will crawl out the anus and onto surrounding fur, it's very obvious. Whipworm, hook worm, Giardia and Coccidia cause loose stools. Round worms will be in the stool wiggling around, sometimes your dog will pass one or more in each stool, you can smash the stool to see it, they are white and quite long. I control parasites with raw garlic in the food, it works great on my cat who used to get tapeworms all the time. There are many other recipes for natural parasite control if you are interested. I've heard of ginger recipes, garlic and vinegar recipes, and herbs too like rosemary.

If you do vaccinate, I highly recommend single vaccines, at intervals to allow recovery and no combos. Combos are not as effective and have more antigen than the singles, which means they are more stressful on your dog's immune system.

Keep in mind the American Animal Hospital Association (AAHA) vaccine schedule is designed to be overkill. It's to protect worst case scenario dogs (stressed, kennel dogs with poor quality food).

If you want to chat with a vet truly educated about vaccines, please don't ask your regular vet, they all push vaccines without really knowing how they work, most vets just regurgitate what the vaccine manufacturers feed them. Instead find a vet with initials MPVM with the DVM, it stands for Masters in Preventative Veterinary Medicine, these particular vets have more population health, infectious disease and immune system education than regular vets at no extra cost.

I'm sure that's more than you wanted, so sorry bout that. Good luck with Little Guy!

ETA- Yes, lots of vaccines all at once can cause inflammatory issues which are life-long, I'll try to find you references for that statement It doesn't happen to all dogs, it's like Russian roulette. Some food for thought, most vets give small dogs the same doses as large dogs thus making the smaller dogs more vulnerable to adverse reactions.

References:
Dr Larry Glickman The Purdue University Great Dane Health and Vaccine Study
Hayward Foundation Study on Vaccines
UW-Madison School of Veterinary Medicine - Press Release Archive Dr Shultz UW Madison
Science of Vaccine Damage
Wing-N-Wave Labradors Vaccines, Infectious Diseases and the Canine Immune System

[Ritz459]

No matter what, he will need his rabies. If you aren't sure if he has been vaccinated or not, I'd vaccinate him just to be safe (or get a blood titer test done on him, but from my understanding those are expensive).

If I had found a stray dog, I'd take it into the vet for a physical first and foremost. Then I'd get an idea of its age and health. After that, I'd vaccinate it. Once my wallet stopped hurting from the money I'd spent, I'd get him nuetered.

[Sheltiemama]

When we bring a stray dog into rescue we always have a full physical and blood work done first. Most importantly heartworm testing and then go from there to neutering. Immunizations should be given when the vet thinks it's safe. We always do them in two week intervals just in case there is a reaction to the medications.

[GSD]

IMO, i'd have him checked with an exam, and when he's deemed to be at full strength, he'd nuetered, then wait a month or two and get his Rabies done. I wouldnt' worry about the others, but any vet that pushes for vacc's now when he is in a weakened state and no known history should have their license pulled for malpractice.

The "better safe than sorry" routine doesn't quite cut it with me either. Do they mean "better safe" than say the 160, 000 cats that die every year due to cancers that originate at the vaccine injection sites??? safer than that?? or all the thousands of dogs that have their immune systems turn on their own cells and start destroying them from the inside out? You mean safer than those guys?

Make sure there aren't any "fires" to put out, immediate health issues, then let him get back to full strength before doing anything else.

[Carrie]

This stray beagle I have now appears healthy; sturdy, energetic, shiny, good weight, happy, cheery, full of vigor. He's not a super young pup, probably about a year also like yours. I will get him neutered within a couple of months I expect. But I have no plans to fill him with vaccines or pesticides for worms. He has no signs of worms and we don't have heart worm here. I'm just convinced that their immune systems become destroyed by some of these vaccines...how they over do it, especially. I suppose new puppies need shots for those horrible diseases that can over whelm their systems, like parvo or distemper, rabies later. I think once a lifetime is enough for rabies. But if a dog is already grown and healthy, I bet in most cases, their systems can take care of things if not broken down by chemicals being doused into them.

I doubt I'd even bother with blood work unless the dog seems sickly; off his feed, lethargc, skin problems or something else that doesn't seem right.

I tend to agree with GSD after having read a lot about some of this. The vets I took Lyric to in Seattle for his liver disease (diagnosis, treatment etc)....a highly reputable, state of the art hospital asked if he were "up to date" on his vaccines. I told the vet, "well, no, if you consider having them every year as being up to date." LOL. I said that he had his puppy shots and one booster a year later and that was that. She said, "All us vets here don't vaccinate our dogs much either." So, it's beginning to be more accepted and understood by vets. My vets here and another one in Seattle never hassle me about it.

But I guess, the bottom line has to be what you feel good doing. Talk it over with your vet and even another vet for another opinion and you can even read up online...see what info you can dig up.

[GSD]

Originally Posted by Carrie

I'm just convinced that their immune systems become destroyed by some of these vaccines...how they over do it, especially.

You're not the only one, and actually it has been proven and shown in clinical trials. Everyone should google terms like Vaccinosis, auto-antibodies, immune reactions to vaccines etc and read what is out there. There is a gigantic mountain of information out there that public health officials and vets or most md's will NOT tell you. Nobody is going to look out for you but you. I know it takes work, but you MUST take on the responsibility to get all the information you can. Relying on one source, whether they are a "professional" or not, is dangerous

The vaccinated group developed significant levels of autoantibodies against: fibronectin, laminin, DNA, albumin, Cytochrome C, transferrin, cardiolipin, collagen. The responses varied among individual animals, probably reflecting genetic differences. The clinical significance of those autoantibodies remains to be determined, but speculation must be that something in the vaccines is one of the etiologies (in the genetically susceptible dog) of such diseases as Cardiomyopathy, Lupus Erythematosus, Glomerulonephritis, etc. I apologise for using these technical terms but this is a complex study and adds validity to the report.

- William R. Larosa, M.D.

I'm sorry, but if vaccines are causing autoantibodies against DNA for cryin out loud, I don't need the "clinical significance" to be determined. I need to limit the amount of vaccines given to my animals and myself. That's what I need to do. They also attack albumin, cytochrome C, cardiolipin, etc. Those are very important pieces to some very important things and systems in the body. I don't think they could ever convince me that creating anti bodies against those things is ever a good thing.

[TinyAlbinoDancer]

Dogs4Life- Thank you SO MUCH for all that info.! I've never even heard of a MVPM and will google and see if there are any in my area. That would be excellent!

GSD- That's what I've been doing--trying to learn all I can, ask the vet what she thinks, and make my own decision. I think I just can't stand the thought of one of my kids coming down with parvo or something and losing them, so I'm on the fence between what's "always" been done and what we're finding now as far as the horrible effects of all these vaccinations. I guess I worry primarily about Missie because I didn't do things right with her for the first 7 years or so of her life (poor food, vaccs and shots I had no idea what they were, etc.), so I always think, "what if her immune system wouldn't be able to fight these things if she was exposed?"

My main concern with Little Guy is that he may NEVER of had any vaccs, even as a puppy. Are there any studies that show completely unvaccinated adult dogs CAN fight those illnesses?

Would a titer be a good/better idea? 'Cause I believe I can titer for all the core vaccines and rabies for somewhere around $80, and getting all the vaccines done wouldn't cost a great deal less than that, I don't think. I've read mixed reports on the accuracy of titers, so any of our thoughts/knowledge on that would be wonderful.

I so appreciate you guys' help and input. A thousand thank yous!

[GSD]

Parvo is found in a lot of places and can live for a long period of time. I would expect that it is like any other illness. If a dog is around long enough he's probably come in contact with it already, but regardless, it is almost always a disease of puppies not adult dogs. They get outbreaks in shelters sometimes, they are more highly publicized than they are real, but that's beside the point. The point is those dogs are usually highly stressed, living in crowded and not always the best conditions and usually not eating very good food, all things that depress an immune system.

I'm not sure if there are any published studies showing that a unvaccinated animal can fight these infections, causual observation tells me it is so. If they couldn't, the species would have died out a long time ago, but they didn't. They have an immune system that is more highly complex and effective than any pill or shot our human minds can come up with.

BacT and viruses surround us and animals every single day of our lives, yet we don't walk around sick all the time. My newest addition (she's over a year now, Ican't believe it) has never had anything other than rabies at a little over a year old. I'm going to have her titred this year in the fall when she has to do her 2nd rabies (they require the first two to be a year apart, then every three by law). I'm willing to bet she has antibodies to all of these things they vaccinate for.

I've known proably a dozen or so other people that have NEVER vaccinated their dogs or cats and they show strong immunity throughout their adult lives. I don't think any pharma company is paying for studies like this to be done, call me crazy.

I've never been vaccinated against the flu and every year i'm on a plane in classrooms, in office buildings, and working on people that have the flu, yet I don't ever get it. I'm breathing the same air, touching the same stuff. Is my immune system just strong by chance? Partly that may be true, but I also am not taking various meds that will weaken my immune system, i don't eat crappy food, I don't smoke, I exercise and manage stress very well, not perfect, but pretty good.

When I do get sick it is almost always because I get together with old friends from college and we act like idiots for a weekend. Too much alcohol, bad food, and no sleep. I get worn down, i'm prone to infection, and I get sick. Good thing is, it doesn't take long for me get things ramped back up to fight these things.

Most people don't understand why I feel this way, but it has taken a long time, a lot of school and a lot independent reading. The body is meant to change and adapt to its environment. There are things out there that can make us ill, or even kill us or our dogs. I fully accept that. I also know that if kept strong, those things will not be able to affect a healthy body. Nature doesn't work that way, even Louis Pastuer, the father of the germ theory that everyone blindly follows said, "it's not the seed, it's the soil" which means if you don't maintain an environment for disease to grow, it won't. The germs are everywhere, you need to provide the weakened body for it to grow.

Vaccines trick the body. Yes they can stimulate the body to produce antibodies against disease. They can also trick the body into attacking itself causing short term devestating disease, or long term chronic disease. Did anyone read that quote about it attacking the animals DNA??? How good is that for a dog or human?

Right now the only risk reward that pushes me to vaccinate is Rabies, because if i'm caught without it, and my dogs do anything to anyone, they get taken and their heads could get chopped off for studying, other than that, i don't see any benefit to outweight the risks of getting them.

Read "What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Children's Vaccinations " by Stephanie Cave. It's an easy read, and should stimulate your mind to look further. Watch "V" for Vendetta as well, when you have no fear, you are truly free. I know I sound a little cooky maybe, but you have no idea how true it is, when you see how people use fear to control you, and you don't allow it.

[dogs4life]

Originally Posted by TinyAlbinoDancer

Dogs4Life- Thank you SO MUCH for all that info.! I've never even heard of a MVPM and will google and see if there are any in my area. That would be excellent!

You're welcome. I didn't know about MVPMs either until I worked at a Vet School, let's just say that job was a huge eye opener and a great educational experience for me.

If you cannot find a MVPM near you, most holistic vets are self-educated or you can find a regular vet, like Carrie has, who's open to selective vaccination and titers OR you can self-educate like GSD and I have and go solo. Hopefully you can find someone you are comfortable with and can trust.

I agree with GSD's views on dangers vaccines, that's why I only vaccinate myself, my daughter, my dog or my cat if law requires and I cannot get a waiver and take precautions if I do chose to vaccinate. IMO there is too much risk of adverse effects from the required or recommended vaccines plus most of the diseases are not even lethal for a healthy immune system to handle. I will vaccinate appropriately (minimizing adverse reactions) if anyone is at risk and I'm not confident we can handle the disease. What helped me decided on whether to vaccinate, titer or not-vaccinate, was self-education. I researched each disease, how to treat each disease, what the symptoms are, what mortality rates are, if there is long-term damage to infection, knowing the advantage to natural immunity (which is poorly understood), weighing risk of exposure, weighing risk of vaccination and how to support a healthy immune system. It's all about making educated decisions and knowing what all the consequences are and having a plan for an unwanted outcome. Unfortunately, no vaccine is 100% effective, most are between 50% and 90% with many reasons behind the lack of protection, from maternal anti-bodies to immune-incompetence to viral mutations, the list is really long. So even if you do vaccinate, it doesn't give you a guarantee that your dog will never get sick, we just hope it reduces the risk without any adverse effects.

About natural immunity, the only data I can find right now is from wild wolves, coyotes and other canids, based on that data and information on treatment of each disease I've found, I'd say yes, domesticated dogs can acquire natural immunity against all the viruses and bacteria they have vaccines for without longterm effects, but that dogs immune system has to be upto the challenge. If you can search for treatment measures for each disease, they all have supportive care except for rabies where they state euthanasia or not treatable.

Here are some natural immunity references I was able to find today, there is one for AK, WI, WY and MT but I couldn't find one for California though. You can call your local Wildlife Manager for your local infection rates and immunity rates, it should be published by county or region.

Diseases of Wisconsin's Furbearers
Disease Surveillance in Grey Wolves in Montana
Serological Survey for Selected Disease Agents in Wolves (Canis lupus) from Alaska and the Yukon Territory, 1984-2000
Wyoming Wolf Recovery 2007 Annual Report

About titers, I'll say the same thing I said to Rivsky, the efficacy of the results depends on the lab testing and the vet helping you interpret the results. The most discriminating and best educated vets will use only the best labs and have taken the time to read the result correctly. Find a great vet and they will send the blood to the best lab and will help you make the best decision for your dog based on their analysis of your dog's blood, health and titers. FYI you can tell a lot about the animals health by spinning their blood, the plasma layer will be lightly tinted yellow or clear, the buffy coat (white cell layer) will be thick and pure white in color, and the red cell layer will be vibrant thick and red. So a great vet will know this and use that information to help guide you.

The $90 for all titers sounds too low, is it for CDV, CPV, CAV1, CAV2, CPIV and/or Rabies? Last I checked it's $90 per pathogen (disease) but there is a new test coming out soon that will make it cheaper to test for all of them at the vet's office so may be the one your talking about.

Here's some info on the diseases, it's not all accurate but it will give you an idea of what to look for if you haven't already started looking. Sorry I don't really have time to research them better for you, maybe some else can or I can later.

Information Sheet - Canine Distempervirus (CDV)
Canine Distemper
Information Sheet - Canine Parvovirus
Canine Parvovirus
Rabies
Important Diseases of Dogs

HTH a bit