Harmful Effects of Vaccination

calgal · 08-30-2005, 12:36 PM

Besides the possibility that they may not work, vaccines might also cause an acute disease or a chronic health problem. I have often noticed certain animals getting ill a few days to a few weeks after receiving vaccinations. Often the explanation given is that the dog or cat was already incubating the disease and was going to get it anyway. Granted that this may occasionally happen, in my opinion most of these instances are illness from the vaccine itself.
I think it will take many more years for the realization to dawn that some degree of adverse health effects occur in the majority of those vaccinated.
What you can do depends on your access to a qualified holistic veterinarian. As an example, we have not used vaccinations in our practice for 17 years. In their place we give homeopathic remedies called nosodes, which are made from natural disease products. Distemperinum, for example, is made from the secretions of a dog ill from canine distemper. It is sterilized, diluted and carefully prepared in accredited pharmacies. When properly used, this medicine can protect a dog from distemper even better than the vaccine can. In fact, this method of disease protection, first developed by ta veterinarian in the 1920s, showed impressive results even before vaccines were developed.
Nosodes are also available for kennel caugh, parvovirus, feline leukemia, feline infectious peritonitis and other common dog and cat diseases. We have been using this method of protection for several years now with very satisfactory results and without the side effects and illness associated with vaccine use.
If you cannot find this service or you are afraid to not vaccinate? midified plan suggestion: Use single or simple vaccines instead of complex vaccines. Where possible, use only "killed" or "inactivated" vaccines (as opposed to "modified live"). These "killed" vaccines cannot grow in the body and are generally safer to use.
Use a reduced vaccination schedule for young animals. You do not have to give a lot of vaccinations to have as much protection as is possible. In most instances immunization of puppies or kittens is enough for several years or a lifetime of protection.
Don't vaccinate an animal too early. Avoid the temptation to vaccinate before 16 weeks of age. Remember that the earlier your animal begins vaccinations, the more harm may be done to the immune system, and also the more vaccines received, the greater the chance for vacine-induced illness.
Avoid annual boosters. There has never been much justification for the yearly boostger shots recommended by most veterinarians, even though they have become a popular practice. I advise against any further vaccinations after the initial series, as they are not necessary.
(This was taken from Dr. Pitcairn's book)

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/nosodes.htm

Mom2Many · 08-30-2005, 12:55 PM

Thanks for the great information Calgal! I have been studying vaccinations for awhile now and have come to the conclusion that too much of anything is never any good. The increase of vaccinosis in our animals was enough to make me not want to vaccinate as recommended by most vets. Nowdays our dogs suffer from OCD, irrational fear and anxiety and as if that wasn't scary enough a lot of our animals are developing autoimmune disorders and research is pointing to the cause being vaccinations!
People need to make themselves aware of all of the risks/benefits of vaccinating their pets and not just rely on what the vet tells them. It is the same in human health care, always question!

Mom2Many · 08-30-2005, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by okpik

Why wouldn't a DVM selling a book promoting analternative medicine that he profits from not bash vaccines?

I have yet to hear anyone on this site show validity in their sources.

You can change my mind but I do not believe tabloid style facts.
Does anyone have real data on vaccines?

People always have one motivation or another when they write something. What type of facts are you looking for? There are too many out there to just start listing. Are you looking for an unbaised source?
Not only that but it doesn't seem as if this author is bashing vaccines...just to be cautious about the administrating of them to early or in a combo vac. That makes sense to me now that I understand acquired immunity.

Mom2Many · 08-30-2005, 05:09 PM

Vaccination Decisions
by Susan Wynn, DVM

Background

Veterinarians claim that annual vaccinations have decimated the incidence of formerly common viral diseases such as feline panleukopenia, rhinotracheitis, feline leukemia, canine distemper, hepatitis, and canine parvovirus. While this is undoubtedly true, many pet owners and some veterinarians have begun to question both the need for annual, life-long revaccination, as well as the long term consequences of vaccination in general.

The Aftermath of a Success Story

Although Dr Jean Dodds suggested, as early as 1983, that autoimmune disease was occurring in certain susceptible individuals as a result of over-vaccination, concurring literature began to appear only in 1992. Phillips and Schultz, of the Scripps Research Institute and University of Wisconsin, respectively, reviewed the state of canine and feline vaccine technology in Current Veterinary Therapy XI. One conclusion was that annual vaccination was a widespread practice with no scientific basis or verification. The immune response to most viruses lasts years.

Dr Schultz further speculated that for most dogs, revaccination is probably only necessary every three years, although the persistence of immune competence may vary, since modified live virus vaccines stimulate a stronger response from the animal than do killed vaccines. Dr Jim Richards, of the Cornell Feline Health Center, has written that duration of immunity in cats is also not well understood, despite the fact that the need for annual revaccination is questionable.

In 1995, an article appeared in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association entitled "Are We Vaccinating Too Much?" The veterinarians interviewed included Dr Schultz, Dr Dennis Macy of Colorado State University, Dr Leland Carmichael, and Dr Fred Scott of Cornell University. These leading veterinary immunologists admit puzzlement at the current situation but stop short of making recommendations, since no studies have been done to show maximum duration of immunity. When asked directly what should be done, Dr Macy recommends continuing to follow vaccine label instructions, but to pressure the USDA to determine the optimal vaccination schedule. The other experts interviewed did not make specific recommendations but emphasized the need for veterinarians to rationally analyze the individual situation and vaccinate accordingly. In general, they felt that cats should be immunized every three years for both FVRCP and rabies, not annually.

Papers and textbooks over the last 15 years indicate that annual revaccination for some diseases was probably not necessary (see Appel 1972), (Green 1990), (Olson 1997), and (Carmichael 1981). After over 15 years of questions about our vaccine practices, things are changing. Veterinarians acknowledge that yearly vaccines have indeed worked to nearly eliminate some illnesses, but now ask, "do we have to vaccinate yearly to get the same results?"

In 1998, the American Association of Feline Practitioners published an official report compiled by an expert panel recommending that yearly re-vaccination be reconsidered. For viral diseases that induce long lasting immunity, it's recommended that vaccines be done only every three years in cats. The American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine and the American Animal Hospital Assocation endorsed the recommendation, and some veterinary schools began recommending three-year vaccine intervals for both dogs and cats (excepting those vaccines that are known to have short durations of immunity, such as feline leukemia vaccine, leptospirosis, kennel cough).

Aside from the question of whether yearly revaccination is necessary, there is the possibility that the practice has caused harm. Increasingly, veterinarians are recognizing the possible connection between viral vaccines and immune-mediated disease (Duval, 1996), (Kass, 1993), (Kelton, 1981), (Axhelm , 1987), and (HogenEsch, 1997). We know, for example, that yearly vaccines are associated with malignant tumors in cats. We suspect a connection between vaccines and autoimmune hemolytic anemia. Do we need more problems before we change a practice that we suspect to be unnecessary, anyway?

Alternatives to Yearly Vaccination

Please keep in mind that this section discusses alternatives to all vaccinations except rabies. Rabies vaccination is required by law in most states. Rabies can be an urban disease, frequently found in raccoons and foxes that raid suburban trashcans, and if your unvaccinated pet is exposed, the disease is invariably fatal. The majority of rabies cases in domesticated animals occur in cats.

One argument against vaccination has been that if we keep our animals perfectly healthy, feed raw diets, good water, and give them a perfect lifestyle, they will never succumb to these diseases when exposed. Many believe that this perfect lifestyle is simply impossible to achieve. Not much can be done about the air we breathe, although indoor cats that live with the luxury of multiple air filters may have an advantage here. It is well recognized that city water systems are far from "clean," as recent reports seem to suggest. Animals drinking distilled water may have a head start here. What about indoor air pollution? A recent review detailed the potential sources of indoor air pollution to which we are all subject, emphasizing that pets experience "comparable, if not greater" exposure to these pollutants, which may include nitrogen dioxide from gas appliances and water heaters, formaldehyde from foam insulation, and household cleaning agents. Of course, outdoor pets walk all over beautiful lawns full of chemicals, then walk into their homes to lick their feet.

Add to all of these insults the fact that purebred (and even mixed breed) animals may have genetic tendencies that can lead to greater susceptibility to these diseases and the potential for developing long term side effects from these diseases or the vaccines designed to prevent them. And we continue to hear of unvaccinated dogs and cats who die of these viral diseases. Because it is my belief that we cannot provide our pets with perfectly healthy environments and bodies (or even determine whether that is possible), it should be clear that we need to increase the odds in favor of our pets.

Nosodes

Nosodes may be one way to protect them; unfortunately, there is no convincing evidence that nosodes work. A few studies published in homeopathic journals suggest that nosodes may decrease the severity of active disease and possibly prevent the spread of epidemics, but these studies are not controlled. The results of one well controlled study suggest that parvovirus nosodes are completely ineffective in preventing parvoviral disease under experimental challenge conditions (Larson, 1996). Until well designed studies are completed and thousands of pet owners make a concerted effort to help with potential retrospective studies, nosodes remain an unknown quantity, and I do not recommend using them as a sole strategy for disease prevention.

I recommend that puppies and kittens undergo an initial vaccination series and that annual vaccination be continued for a year or two, depending on the individual. Unfortunately, many dogs and cats begin developing signs of allergy or other disorders early in life. It is not recommended that sick animals be vaccinated, and chronic illness may include the gamut of every day conditions like atopic skin disease, inflammatory bowel disease, or spondylosis. If we don't want to risk vaccination, and we don't know whether nosodes work, what next?

Titers

One strategy being used by many veterinarians is to test antibody levels in the blood of our pets. Antibody levels may suggest (but not conclusively prove) how much immunity that pet carries against a specific disease. For many diseases, antibodies are the prime source of protection against disease, and a high level suggests that the animal may adequately respond to the agent causing that disease. Conversely, low levels indicate that the pet may be susceptible to contracting the disease in question (an example is canine parvovirus). Unfortunately, antibodies tell only part of the story, and an animal may be perfectly immune to some diseases, but have low antibody levels to that disease (canine distemper may be one example). These antibody tests are not perfect indicators of immunity, and most immunologists suggest that we do not place total reliance on them. They are, however, the best tests we have, and can give the pet owner a rationale for not submitting a pet to vaccination, should there be any argument.

Many veterinary school diagnostic laboratories are capable of doing vaccine titers for your pet. Most private practitioners also have access to Antech laboratories, which will run an abbreviated test for a reasonable price. Some labs will set a threshold for protection, although others will only give the veterinarian a number, which must be interpreted in the light of experience. The serologic tests of interest for cats are IgG titers for feline panleukopenia, feline herpesvirus, calicivirus, and feline syncytial virus. We don't usually run titers for cats, but if this is done, panleukopenia is the only test that is meaningful. High titers to herpesvirus and calicivirus are too difficult to interpret since there are dozens of strains of these viruses. Feline coronavirus titers are measurable, but interpretation is very difficult and so these titers are not recommended. Cats are not tested for feline leukemia virus and immune deficiency virus by antibody levels, but by the presence of the virus. Dogs can be tested for parvovirus, coronavirus, herpesvirus, adenovirus, leptospirosis and distemper antibodies. We test for distemper and parvovirus only, as the other titers are either unimportant (coronavirus) or so short-lived that the information isn't often helpful (leptospirosis). Rabies antibody level tests are not offered or recommended in animals due to the public health implications (although human rabies titers are sometimes measured). We measure rabies antibody titers only for very sick or very old animals, such as those with cancer or life-threatening autoimmune diseases.

Practically speaking, dogs should have antibody titers against canine distemper and canine parvovirus evaluated. Canine hepatitis has been called an exotic disease, and since it is rarely seen today, titer assessment is probably unnecessary. The need for other titers, such as leptospirosis, should be evaluated according to the individual's general health and environment. Cats should have titers to feline panleukopenia tested. Be sure to advise the lab specifically of your interest in antibodies to vaccination. The lab should, in this case, change the normal testing technique by starting at lower serum dilutions to give a more accurate answer.

Once a number has been provided, how is this information interpreted? If the levels are in the "protective range" (understand that this is still a fuzzy number, due to the novelty of this technique in clinical practice), you can assume that the pet has made an adequate immune response to those diseases in the past. As wishy-washy as this statement may sound, this information is a much better indicator that the pet is protected than the simple act of vaccinating. Sticking a needle full of vaccine under the skin does not tell us that the pet is automatically immune—not all animals are genetically identical or live in identical environments. Scientists have no idea how each and every pet is going to respond to vaccination. Is the pet going to be protected by vaccination? No way to know for sure, but titers can help. If the titers look adequate, why vaccinate?

more to follow:

Mom2Many · 08-30-2005, 05:23 PM

Sticky situations

For people who board their pets in boarding or veterinary facilities that require annual vaccinations, protective antibody levels actually provide more precise information about a pet's immune status than a simple history of receiving vaccinations. Animals receiving nosodes may or may not develop antibody titers, for reasons that would require pages more to explain. Suffice it to say that a nosode protected animal with sufficient antibody titers should still be considered adequately immunocompetent by facilities asking for this information, and for those animals receiving nosodes that do not develop titers, this rather inconvenient situation remains the same—one cannot prove the dog or cat is immune.

For pet owners whose veterinarians still insist on yearly vaccinations, I would carefully consider whether the pet is fully healthy or not. Allergies? Inflammatory bowel disease? Hypothyroid? These are illnesses, and sick animals should never be vaccinated. It says so, right there on the vaccine label.

Antibody titers are not going to save you any money, and they should still be done every 1-3 years, until we know how long these antibodies actually last in the blood. These annual tests will give us peace of mind, while at the same time helping to establish just how long vaccinations actually protect the average dog or cat. Knowledge of how to more safely and judiciously vaccinate our pets will save many thousands of pets unnecessary illnesses caused by our well-intentioned vaccine programs.

References and Further Reading

Appel M and Gillespie JH, 1972. Canine distemper virus, in Gard S (ed) Virology Monographs II, New York, Springer Verlag, pp 1-96.

Axhelm MK and Krakowka S, 1987. Canine distemper virus-induced thrombocytopenia. Am J Vet Res, 48: 1269-1275.

Carmichael LE, et al, 1981. A modified live canine parvovirus strain with novel plaque characteristics: I. viral attentuation and dog response. Cornell Vet J.

Cestmir A, Braciale TJ, Cernescu C, Doherty P, et al, 1995. The Experts Speak: How does a viral infection trigger an autoimmune disease? Viral Immunology, 8(4):187-192.

Day CEI, 1987. Isopathic prevention of kennel cough—is vaccination justified? Journal of the International Association of Veterinary Homeopathy, 2.

Dodds WJ, 1983. Immune Mediated Diseases of the Blood. Advances in Veterinary Science and Comparative Medicine, 27:163-196.

Duval D and Giger U, 1996. Vaccine-Associated Immune-Mediated Hemolytic Anemia in the Dog. J Vet Intern Med, 10:290-295.

Dye J and Costa D, 1995. A Brief Guide to Indoor Air Pollutants and Relevance to Small Animals. Current Veterinary Therapy XII. WB Saunders, Philadelphia, PA.

Ford, et al, 1995. Vaccines: Pioneering New Paths to Healthcare. Emerging Science and Technology: Advances in Veterinary Medicine. Fairway, KS.

Greene CE, 1990. Feline Panleukopenia, in Infectious Diseases of the Dog and Cat. WB Saunders, p 249.

Greene CE, 1990. Feline Panleukopenia, in Infectious Diseases of the Dog and Cat. WB Saunders, p 298.

Hogenesch H, et al, 1999. Vaccine-induced autoimmunity in the dog. Adv Vet Med, 41:733-47.

Kass PH, et al, 1993. Epidemiologic evidence for a causal relation between vaccination and fibrosarcoma tumorigenesis in cats. JAVMA, 203:396-405.

Kelton JG, 1981. Vaccination-associated relapse of immune thrombocytopenia. JAVMA, 245:369-371.

Larson L, Wynn S, and Schultz RD, 1996. A Canine Parvovirus Nosode Study. Proceedings of the Second Annual Midwest Holistic Veterinary Conference. Nov 2-3, 1996.

Olson P, et al, 1997. Distemper Titer study in Sweden 1995-1996. JVIM, 11(2)

abstract #178).

Phillips T and Schultz R, 1992. Canine and Feline Vaccines, in Current Veterinary Therapy XI. WB Saunders, Philadelphia, PA.

Saxton J, 1991. The Use of Canine distemper nosode in disease control. International Journal of Veterinary Homeopathy, 5:8.

Scott FW and Geissinger C, 1997. Duration of immunity in cats vaccinated with an inactivated feline panleukopenia, herpesvirus and calicivirus vaccine. Feline Practice, 25(4):12-19.

Smith C, 1995. Are we Vaccinating Too Much? JAVMA, 207(4):421-425.

Stopes C and Woodward L, 1990. The use and efficacy of a homoeopathic nosode in the prevention of mastitis in dairy herds: a farm survey of practising users. IFOAM: Bulletin of Organic Agriculture, 10:6.

Taylor SM, Mallon TR, and Green WP, 1989. Efficacy of a homoeopathic prophylaxis against experimental infection of calves by the bovine lungworm Dictyocaulus viviparus. Veterinary Record, 124:15.

Yamamoto K, 1994. Possible mechanisms of autoantibody production and the connection of viral infections and human autoimmune diseases. Tohoku J Exp Med, 173:75-82

Is that enough sources for you or do you want more? This is written by a DVM not a homeopathic vet. As for my understanding of immunity well it's indepth so hold on...

First we have acquired...resulting from either exposrue to an antigen or from the passive injection of immunoglobulins.
Active...resulitng from the development within the body of antibodies or sensitized T lymphocytes that neutralize or destroy the infective agent...either from an invading organism or from inoculation with a vaccine.
B-cell mediated...cytotoxic activites and regulatory activities of T cells during a specific immune response.
Congential...present at birth, natural immunity. It may be natural or acquired depending on the mothers antibodies present in the blood.
Humoral...protective activites of antibodies against infection or reinfection by common organisms.
Passive...immunity acquired by the introduction of preformed antibodies into an unprotected animal. Either through intravenous infusion of immune globulin or in utero from antibodies that pass from the mother to the fetus through the placenta.
Now that is just a generalized breakdown of what I know about immunity. I could go into how the different cells, receptors, etc. all function together to provide our immunity but I would rather not waste my time. We (all animals on this planet) have been given the perfect means to protect ourselves the majority of the time. Granted things have changed as we have introduced new bacterium and the likes into our environment. We also have people and pets living longer than ever before which presents new immunity problems. Due to these factors in some ways we have messed with mother nature to much but I feel the majority of the time a healthy individual does not need to be bombarded with vaccinations for their entire life span. Lets just agree to disagree on this subject!

GSD · 08-31-2005, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by okpik

How many of these DVM'd and other experts are submitting papers being sponsored by alternative medicine groups looking to get a leg up on the established doctrine?

ANd the same goes for those that support the mainstream medical method for "health care" of animals and people. Except it should read more like,
"how many of these DVM's and other experts are submitting papers being sponsered by the SAME groups promoting their product and looking to keep alternative, less invasive, and less costly groups down and away from the established doctrine?" THe pet industry is one one of the largest money makers around, why would the established doctrine want to share any of it??

Mom2Many · 09-01-2005, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by okpik

I made that clear in my original post. I'm not complaining or knocking any belief. I just want facts that help me decide what's best for my furry kids.

Do you have any valid info for me or are you just throwin' stones GSD?

So vaccinate every year...we have done our research ourselves and come to a conclusion based on what we have learned. If that isn't enough proof/information for you then vaccinate. It is a personal decision not to vaccinate every year and one that I am happy with, my dogs are happy with, and my vet is happy with!

Owned by Lucy · 09-01-2005, 08:32 AM

I agree with Mom2Many. You can not expect others to do your research for you and then critize the information they give you. If you want particular types of information from certain sources then you should do the legwork yourself.

The companies that pay for the majority of research for vaccines are the pharmaceutical companies who have spent tons of money developing them. It is unlikely that they are going to publish any report that is not favorable towards them. It is also common knowledge alot of the dangers of vaccines have not been divuldged by the CDC and other federal agencies because they fear people weighing the risks and choosing not to vaccinate.

There is a good yahoo group called the Truth About Vaccines that contains alot of information that may be useful to you as atleast a jumping off point for research.

GSD · 09-01-2005, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by okpik

I made that clear in my original post. I'm not complaining or knocking any belief. I just want facts that help me decide what's best for my furry kids.

Do you have any valid info for me or are you just throwin' stones GSD?

Well I haven't seen anything from you other than sarcasm basically. Since I deal with humans more than animals, here do a search on Andrew Friedman, he works for a division of Johnson and Johnson (ortho-mcNeil) as head of research for there Pharma division. Basically he admittedly faked, made up, and changed research and made up families to back his companies research. This was while he was at harvard medical school, and bringham young women's hospital. He lost his license for three years in which he was a paid consultant to pharma companies, then he gets hired after his three year ban as head of research for a large pharma company. DOes that make sense to you. It does to me, why wouldn't a big pharma company want someone that's can lie and cheat to make more money.

That's just for starters, I have tons more where that came from on everything from vioxx to claritin. You do some research, but I guess this is only "tabloid"research as you call it, but I wouldn't call mainstream research all that honest either. you say the tabloid researchers have an agenda, I'd say and industry that brings in Billions upon billions every year has a pretty big agenda as well. Especially when its basically up to them to police themselves.

Mom2Many · 09-01-2005, 12:05 PM

http://www.holisticat.com/vaccinations.html
http://www.vaccines.bizland.com/lkj.htm
http://f4.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/kDMXQzD...e%20blkwht.pdf
http://f5.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/kDMXQ1k...20Vaccines.doc
http://f4.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/kDMXQ1q...ue%20Study.doc
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/kDMXQze...0of%20Vaccines
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/kDMXQyc...er%20Virus.htm

This is just the tip of the iceberg...there is an enormous amount of information to be found about the dangers of yearly vaccinations if you care to look. But once again, whether or not you vaccinate your dogs yearly is no skin off my butt...continue to pay your vet for needless expenses, I am sure they appreciate all the business you throw their way! Although I must say I am suprised that someone in the medical field would be so ignorant to the way vaccinations work in our bodies. Memory cells do not die or forget what they are programmed to do...no matter how long it has been since the invader has been introduced. It is what makes us such an interesting/complex world that we are so well prepared to defend ourselves against these organisms. Now where is your proof that we need yearly vaccinations for our animals? I haven't seen you present any contradictory information...bring it on!

Mom2Many · 09-01-2005, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by okpik

For the third time, I have clearly stated I am in need of info to make my decision for my dogs as well. I am not in complete disagreement with you. I do not want to waste money, dogs health or any of the same things you want.

I have clearly asked that if you believe this junk you are quoting that you provide valid proof and you have yet do so.

I have read the stuff you have submitted in the past and again now as well and the reporters only supply speculation not fact.

I have taken the time to read your posts in full and comprehend them. Try doing the same for me.

If you want to blindly listen to anyone with a key board, go ahead.

You are just to funny!

Do your own research, it is out there if you look for it and until it is a matter that is taken more seriously (which will be years in the future due the bankrolling these companies do) what material you find will be based on research done independently from any vaccine companies. Although they have now agreed that yearly vaccinations are not needed and recommend every three years, and an honest vet would tell you that. You will glean what you want out of what you find and since you are coming from such an apparent closed minded approach you won't see the forest for the trees. Have a fantastic day and good luck with your research!

Crossfire Bulldogs · 09-01-2005, 01:15 PM

Hmm, put a collar on it and walk it with the dogs? Closed minded? Ignorant? Wow. Thats it folks, before this goes any further down the wrong road lets stick to giving what information we have rather than finding new and sometimes colorful ways to tell someone to kiss off shall we.

Information can be a wonderful thing and it really is up to us to decide what is best for our individual dogs as well as life in general. Only you can make that decision and what may be right for one may not be right for another. Each one of us must do our own research to come to a conclusion.

This is an area for information not a debate section, looking to debate the issue of vaccines then check the current debate Are all the shots the vets pump our Best Friends with killing them?? or start your own. Any more jabs here and you'll leave me with no choice but to close this thread.

GSD · 09-01-2005, 01:20 PM

I guess there's nothing for you to see here, move along please and allow us to wander aimlessly. Nobody here is capable of rational thought or seeing a bigger picture. You're not going to find what you're looking for here.

If you want to see a study that says a bordetella shot every year will give your dog cancer, I doubt anyone can find it, or that anybody has done it. There is a ton of info out there wether you want to read it believe it, or pass it off as BS, its up to you. Some of us have decided that yearly vaccines are not necessary. You like to claim that all of our research is based on anyone with a keyboard (mighty big assumption on your part). I spent quite a few hours in my schooling studying the immune system (of people) and have made decisions for my self. Now for me to reproduce for you the past 10 years of my life just to further whatever little agenda you have here would be a collosal waste of time. This disguise you have as, how do you say it, "I have clearly stated I am in need of info to make my decision for my dogs as well...) followed by the " If you believe this junk you are quoting..." is kind of transparent as to what you really believe, so why waste our time? You believe one side with a multi billion dollar a year agenda, and others believe another side. Myself, I do not find the threat of these things that we vaccinate for that threatening to have it done every year. When I talk to the vets at the University of Wisconsin and they tell me that every 3 years is more than enough i tend to think I made a good decision. It doesn't take too much independent thought to realize that there are a lot of
undesireable things in a vaccine that I don't want injected into my dog every year. Its not really up for debate that a lot of the additives are harmful. Can most animals and people cope, of course they can. Do those things cause more damage over time??? I'm betting they do considering almost every effect multiplies over time after repeated exposures rather than increase along a linear line. Since you seem to be alluding that you're a health care professional on "another level" as you put it, I'll assume you understand this. You should also know that animals and people alike have a pretty amazing immune system. I have rarely heard, and never seen an adult dog with Parvo, and it is easily found within literature that adult dogs are far more resistent to Parvo than puppies. Can an adult dog get it, of course they can, but to me, my strong healthy dog has a much better chance of staying strong and healthy if I don't give her that injection every year. I don't need someone to tell me that or show me research to support it, it seems rather obvious to me. To think otherwise seems like total BS, as you would say. Now if you'll excuse me I think I'll go take the dog for a walk. (be careful, she hasn't had a

08-30-2005, 12:36 PM	#1 (permalink)
calgal My Yorkster kids! Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: central ca. coast Posts: 6,807 Rep Power: 232	Harmful Effects of Vaccination Besides the possibility that they may not work, vaccines might also cause an acute disease or a chronic health problem. I have often noticed certain animals getting ill a few days to a few weeks after receiving vaccinations. Often the explanation given is that the dog or cat was already incubating the disease and was going to get it anyway. Granted that this may occasionally happen, in my opinion most of these instances are illness from the vaccine itself. I think it will take many more years for the realization to dawn that some degree of adverse health effects occur in the majority of those vaccinated. What you can do depends on your access to a qualified holistic veterinarian. As an example, we have not used vaccinations in our practice for 17 years. In their place we give homeopathic remedies called nosodes, which are made from natural disease products. Distemperinum, for example, is made from the secretions of a dog ill from canine distemper. It is sterilized, diluted and carefully prepared in accredited pharmacies. When properly used, this medicine can protect a dog from distemper even better than the vaccine can. In fact, this method of disease protection, first developed by ta veterinarian in the 1920s, showed impressive results even before vaccines were developed. Nosodes are also available for kennel caugh, parvovirus, feline leukemia, feline infectious peritonitis and other common dog and cat diseases. We have been using this method of protection for several years now with very satisfactory results and without the side effects and illness associated with vaccine use. If you cannot find this service or you are afraid to not vaccinate? midified plan suggestion: Use single or simple vaccines instead of complex vaccines. Where possible, use only "killed" or "inactivated" vaccines (as opposed to "modified live"). These "killed" vaccines cannot grow in the body and are generally safer to use. Use a reduced vaccination schedule for young animals. You do not have to give a lot of vaccinations to have as much protection as is possible. In most instances immunization of puppies or kittens is enough for several years or a lifetime of protection. Don't vaccinate an animal too early. Avoid the temptation to vaccinate before 16 weeks of age. Remember that the earlier your animal begins vaccinations, the more harm may be done to the immune system, and also the more vaccines received, the greater the chance for vacine-induced illness. Avoid annual boosters. There has never been much justification for the yearly boostger shots recommended by most veterinarians, even though they have become a popular practice. I advise against any further vaccinations after the initial series, as they are not necessary. (This was taken from Dr. Pitcairn's book) http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/nosodes.htm

08-30-2005, 12:55 PM	#2 (permalink)
Mom2Many Owned by 1 GSD & 1 APBT Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Untangling Gunnar's Leash Posts: 873 Rep Power: 92	Thanks for the great information Calgal! I have been studying vaccinations for awhile now and have come to the conclusion that too much of anything is never any good. The increase of vaccinosis in our animals was enough to make me not want to vaccinate as recommended by most vets. Nowdays our dogs suffer from OCD, irrational fear and anxiety and as if that wasn't scary enough a lot of our animals are developing autoimmune disorders and research is pointing to the cause being vaccinations! People need to make themselves aware of all of the risks/benefits of vaccinating their pets and not just rely on what the vet tells them. It is the same in human health care, always question!
	__________________ Thanks to Keyodie for the beautiful signature! SAY NO TO BSL!

08-30-2005, 05:09 PM	#4 (permalink)
Mom2Many Owned by 1 GSD & 1 APBT Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Untangling Gunnar's Leash Posts: 873 Rep Power: 92	Vaccination Decisions by Susan Wynn, DVM Background Veterinarians claim that annual vaccinations have decimated the incidence of formerly common viral diseases such as feline panleukopenia, rhinotracheitis, feline leukemia, canine distemper, hepatitis, and canine parvovirus. While this is undoubtedly true, many pet owners and some veterinarians have begun to question both the need for annual, life-long revaccination, as well as the long term consequences of vaccination in general. The Aftermath of a Success Story Although Dr Jean Dodds suggested, as early as 1983, that autoimmune disease was occurring in certain susceptible individuals as a result of over-vaccination, concurring literature began to appear only in 1992. Phillips and Schultz, of the Scripps Research Institute and University of Wisconsin, respectively, reviewed the state of canine and feline vaccine technology in Current Veterinary Therapy XI. One conclusion was that annual vaccination was a widespread practice with no scientific basis or verification. The immune response to most viruses lasts years. Dr Schultz further speculated that for most dogs, revaccination is probably only necessary every three years, although the persistence of immune competence may vary, since modified live virus vaccines stimulate a stronger response from the animal than do killed vaccines. Dr Jim Richards, of the Cornell Feline Health Center, has written that duration of immunity in cats is also not well understood, despite the fact that the need for annual revaccination is questionable. In 1995, an article appeared in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association entitled "Are We Vaccinating Too Much?" The veterinarians interviewed included Dr Schultz, Dr Dennis Macy of Colorado State University, Dr Leland Carmichael, and Dr Fred Scott of Cornell University. These leading veterinary immunologists admit puzzlement at the current situation but stop short of making recommendations, since no studies have been done to show maximum duration of immunity. When asked directly what should be done, Dr Macy recommends continuing to follow vaccine label instructions, but to pressure the USDA to determine the optimal vaccination schedule. The other experts interviewed did not make specific recommendations but emphasized the need for veterinarians to rationally analyze the individual situation and vaccinate accordingly. In general, they felt that cats should be immunized every three years for both FVRCP and rabies, not annually. Papers and textbooks over the last 15 years indicate that annual revaccination for some diseases was probably not necessary (see Appel 1972), (Green 1990), (Olson 1997), and (Carmichael 1981). After over 15 years of questions about our vaccine practices, things are changing. Veterinarians acknowledge that yearly vaccines have indeed worked to nearly eliminate some illnesses, but now ask, "do we have to vaccinate yearly to get the same results?" In 1998, the American Association of Feline Practitioners published an official report compiled by an expert panel recommending that yearly re-vaccination be reconsidered. For viral diseases that induce long lasting immunity, it's recommended that vaccines be done only every three years in cats. The American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine and the American Animal Hospital Assocation endorsed the recommendation, and some veterinary schools began recommending three-year vaccine intervals for both dogs and cats (excepting those vaccines that are known to have short durations of immunity, such as feline leukemia vaccine, leptospirosis, kennel cough). Aside from the question of whether yearly revaccination is necessary, there is the possibility that the practice has caused harm. Increasingly, veterinarians are recognizing the possible connection between viral vaccines and immune-mediated disease (Duval, 1996), (Kass, 1993), (Kelton, 1981), (Axhelm , 1987), and (HogenEsch, 1997). We know, for example, that yearly vaccines are associated with malignant tumors in cats. We suspect a connection between vaccines and autoimmune hemolytic anemia. Do we need more problems before we change a practice that we suspect to be unnecessary, anyway? Alternatives to Yearly Vaccination Please keep in mind that this section discusses alternatives to all vaccinations except rabies. Rabies vaccination is required by law in most states. Rabies can be an urban disease, frequently found in raccoons and foxes that raid suburban trashcans, and if your unvaccinated pet is exposed, the disease is invariably fatal. The majority of rabies cases in domesticated animals occur in cats. One argument against vaccination has been that if we keep our animals perfectly healthy, feed raw diets, good water, and give them a perfect lifestyle, they will never succumb to these diseases when exposed. Many believe that this perfect lifestyle is simply impossible to achieve. Not much can be done about the air we breathe, although indoor cats that live with the luxury of multiple air filters may have an advantage here. It is well recognized that city water systems are far from "clean," as recent reports seem to suggest. Animals drinking distilled water may have a head start here. What about indoor air pollution? A recent review detailed the potential sources of indoor air pollution to which we are all subject, emphasizing that pets experience "comparable, if not greater" exposure to these pollutants, which may include nitrogen dioxide from gas appliances and water heaters, formaldehyde from foam insulation, and household cleaning agents. Of course, outdoor pets walk all over beautiful lawns full of chemicals, then walk into their homes to lick their feet. Add to all of these insults the fact that purebred (and even mixed breed) animals may have genetic tendencies that can lead to greater susceptibility to these diseases and the potential for developing long term side effects from these diseases or the vaccines designed to prevent them. And we continue to hear of unvaccinated dogs and cats who die of these viral diseases. Because it is my belief that we cannot provide our pets with perfectly healthy environments and bodies (or even determine whether that is possible), it should be clear that we need to increase the odds in favor of our pets. Nosodes Nosodes may be one way to protect them; unfortunately, there is no convincing evidence that nosodes work. A few studies published in homeopathic journals suggest that nosodes may decrease the severity of active disease and possibly prevent the spread of epidemics, but these studies are not controlled. The results of one well controlled study suggest that parvovirus nosodes are completely ineffective in preventing parvoviral disease under experimental challenge conditions (Larson, 1996). Until well designed studies are completed and thousands of pet owners make a concerted effort to help with potential retrospective studies, nosodes remain an unknown quantity, and I do not recommend using them as a sole strategy for disease prevention. I recommend that puppies and kittens undergo an initial vaccination series and that annual vaccination be continued for a year or two, depending on the individual. Unfortunately, many dogs and cats begin developing signs of allergy or other disorders early in life. It is not recommended that sick animals be vaccinated, and chronic illness may include the gamut of every day conditions like atopic skin disease, inflammatory bowel disease, or spondylosis. If we don't want to risk vaccination, and we don't know whether nosodes work, what next? Titers One strategy being used by many veterinarians is to test antibody levels in the blood of our pets. Antibody levels may suggest (but not conclusively prove) how much immunity that pet carries against a specific disease. For many diseases, antibodies are the prime source of protection against disease, and a high level suggests that the animal may adequately respond to the agent causing that disease. Conversely, low levels indicate that the pet may be susceptible to contracting the disease in question (an example is canine parvovirus). Unfortunately, antibodies tell only part of the story, and an animal may be perfectly immune to some diseases, but have low antibody levels to that disease (canine distemper may be one example). These antibody tests are not perfect indicators of immunity, and most immunologists suggest that we do not place total reliance on them. They are, however, the best tests we have, and can give the pet owner a rationale for not submitting a pet to vaccination, should there be any argument. Many veterinary school diagnostic laboratories are capable of doing vaccine titers for your pet. Most private practitioners also have access to Antech laboratories, which will run an abbreviated test for a reasonable price. Some labs will set a threshold for protection, although others will only give the veterinarian a number, which must be interpreted in the light of experience. The serologic tests of interest for cats are IgG titers for feline panleukopenia, feline herpesvirus, calicivirus, and feline syncytial virus. We don't usually run titers for cats, but if this is done, panleukopenia is the only test that is meaningful. High titers to herpesvirus and calicivirus are too difficult to interpret since there are dozens of strains of these viruses. Feline coronavirus titers are measurable, but interpretation is very difficult and so these titers are not recommended. Cats are not tested for feline leukemia virus and immune deficiency virus by antibody levels, but by the presence of the virus. Dogs can be tested for parvovirus, coronavirus, herpesvirus, adenovirus, leptospirosis and distemper antibodies. We test for distemper and parvovirus only, as the other titers are either unimportant (coronavirus) or so short-lived that the information isn't often helpful (leptospirosis). Rabies antibody level tests are not offered or recommended in animals due to the public health implications (although human rabies titers are sometimes measured). We measure rabies antibody titers only for very sick or very old animals, such as those with cancer or life-threatening autoimmune diseases. Practically speaking, dogs should have antibody titers against canine distemper and canine parvovirus evaluated. Canine hepatitis has been called an exotic disease, and since it is rarely seen today, titer assessment is probably unnecessary. The need for other titers, such as leptospirosis, should be evaluated according to the individual's general health and environment. Cats should have titers to feline panleukopenia tested. Be sure to advise the lab specifically of your interest in antibodies to vaccination. The lab should, in this case, change the normal testing technique by starting at lower serum dilutions to give a more accurate answer. Once a number has been provided, how is this information interpreted? If the levels are in the "protective range" (understand that this is still a fuzzy number, due to the novelty of this technique in clinical practice), you can assume that the pet has made an adequate immune response to those diseases in the past. As wishy-washy as this statement may sound, this information is a much better indicator that the pet is protected than the simple act of vaccinating. Sticking a needle full of vaccine under the skin does not tell us that the pet is automatically immune—not all animals are genetically identical or live in identical environments. Scientists have no idea how each and every pet is going to respond to vaccination. Is the pet going to be protected by vaccination? No way to know for sure, but titers can help. If the titers look adequate, why vaccinate? more to follow:
	__________________ Thanks to Keyodie for the beautiful signature! SAY NO TO BSL!

08-30-2005, 05:23 PM	#5 (permalink)
Mom2Many Owned by 1 GSD & 1 APBT Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Untangling Gunnar's Leash Posts: 873 Rep Power: 92	Sticky situations For people who board their pets in boarding or veterinary facilities that require annual vaccinations, protective antibody levels actually provide more precise information about a pet's immune status than a simple history of receiving vaccinations. Animals receiving nosodes may or may not develop antibody titers, for reasons that would require pages more to explain. Suffice it to say that a nosode protected animal with sufficient antibody titers should still be considered adequately immunocompetent by facilities asking for this information, and for those animals receiving nosodes that do not develop titers, this rather inconvenient situation remains the same—one cannot prove the dog or cat is immune. For pet owners whose veterinarians still insist on yearly vaccinations, I would carefully consider whether the pet is fully healthy or not. Allergies? Inflammatory bowel disease? Hypothyroid? These are illnesses, and sick animals should never be vaccinated. It says so, right there on the vaccine label. Antibody titers are not going to save you any money, and they should still be done every 1-3 years, until we know how long these antibodies actually last in the blood. These annual tests will give us peace of mind, while at the same time helping to establish just how long vaccinations actually protect the average dog or cat. Knowledge of how to more safely and judiciously vaccinate our pets will save many thousands of pets unnecessary illnesses caused by our well-intentioned vaccine programs. References and Further Reading Appel M and Gillespie JH, 1972. Canine distemper virus, in Gard S (ed) Virology Monographs II, New York, Springer Verlag, pp 1-96. Axhelm MK and Krakowka S, 1987. Canine distemper virus-induced thrombocytopenia. Am J Vet Res, 48: 1269-1275. Carmichael LE, et al, 1981. A modified live canine parvovirus strain with novel plaque characteristics: I. viral attentuation and dog response. Cornell Vet J. Cestmir A, Braciale TJ, Cernescu C, Doherty P, et al, 1995. The Experts Speak: How does a viral infection trigger an autoimmune disease? Viral Immunology, 8(4):187-192. Day CEI, 1987. Isopathic prevention of kennel cough—is vaccination justified? Journal of the International Association of Veterinary Homeopathy, 2. Dodds WJ, 1983. Immune Mediated Diseases of the Blood. Advances in Veterinary Science and Comparative Medicine, 27:163-196. Duval D and Giger U, 1996. Vaccine-Associated Immune-Mediated Hemolytic Anemia in the Dog. J Vet Intern Med, 10:290-295. Dye J and Costa D, 1995. A Brief Guide to Indoor Air Pollutants and Relevance to Small Animals. Current Veterinary Therapy XII. WB Saunders, Philadelphia, PA. Ford, et al, 1995. Vaccines: Pioneering New Paths to Healthcare. Emerging Science and Technology: Advances in Veterinary Medicine. Fairway, KS. Greene CE, 1990. Feline Panleukopenia, in Infectious Diseases of the Dog and Cat. WB Saunders, p 249. Greene CE, 1990. Feline Panleukopenia, in Infectious Diseases of the Dog and Cat. WB Saunders, p 298. Hogenesch H, et al, 1999. Vaccine-induced autoimmunity in the dog. Adv Vet Med, 41:733-47. Kass PH, et al, 1993. Epidemiologic evidence for a causal relation between vaccination and fibrosarcoma tumorigenesis in cats. JAVMA, 203:396-405. Kelton JG, 1981. Vaccination-associated relapse of immune thrombocytopenia. JAVMA, 245:369-371. Larson L, Wynn S, and Schultz RD, 1996. A Canine Parvovirus Nosode Study. Proceedings of the Second Annual Midwest Holistic Veterinary Conference. Nov 2-3, 1996. Olson P, et al, 1997. Distemper Titer study in Sweden 1995-1996. JVIM, 11(2)abstract #178). Phillips T and Schultz R, 1992. Canine and Feline Vaccines, in Current Veterinary Therapy XI. WB Saunders, Philadelphia, PA. Saxton J, 1991. The Use of Canine distemper nosode in disease control. International Journal of Veterinary Homeopathy, 5:8. Scott FW and Geissinger C, 1997. Duration of immunity in cats vaccinated with an inactivated feline panleukopenia, herpesvirus and calicivirus vaccine. Feline Practice, 25(4):12-19. Smith C, 1995. Are we Vaccinating Too Much? JAVMA, 207(4):421-425. Stopes C and Woodward L, 1990. The use and efficacy of a homoeopathic nosode in the prevention of mastitis in dairy herds: a farm survey of practising users. IFOAM: Bulletin of Organic Agriculture, 10:6. Taylor SM, Mallon TR, and Green WP, 1989. Efficacy of a homoeopathic prophylaxis against experimental infection of calves by the bovine lungworm Dictyocaulus viviparus. Veterinary Record, 124:15. Yamamoto K, 1994. Possible mechanisms of autoantibody production and the connection of viral infections and human autoimmune diseases. Tohoku J Exp Med, 173:75-82 Is that enough sources for you or do you want more? This is written by a DVM not a homeopathic vet. As for my understanding of immunity well it's indepth so hold on... First we have acquired...resulting from either exposrue to an antigen or from the passive injection of immunoglobulins. Active...resulitng from the development within the body of antibodies or sensitized T lymphocytes that neutralize or destroy the infective agent...either from an invading organism or from inoculation with a vaccine. B-cell mediated...cytotoxic activites and regulatory activities of T cells during a specific immune response. Congential...present at birth, natural immunity. It may be natural or acquired depending on the mothers antibodies present in the blood. Humoral...protective activites of antibodies against infection or reinfection by common organisms. Passive...immunity acquired by the introduction of preformed antibodies into an unprotected animal. Either through intravenous infusion of immune globulin or in utero from antibodies that pass from the mother to the fetus through the placenta. Now that is just a generalized breakdown of what I know about immunity. I could go into how the different cells, receptors, etc. all function together to provide our immunity but I would rather not waste my time. We (all animals on this planet) have been given the perfect means to protect ourselves the majority of the time. Granted things have changed as we have introduced new bacterium and the likes into our environment. We also have people and pets living longer than ever before which presents new immunity problems. Due to these factors in some ways we have messed with mother nature to much but I feel the majority of the time a healthy individual does not need to be bombarded with vaccinations for their entire life span. Lets just agree to disagree on this subject!
	__________________ Thanks to Keyodie for the beautiful signature! SAY NO TO BSL!

09-01-2005, 08:32 AM	#8 (permalink)
Owned by Lucy Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Anderson, SC Posts: 429 Rep Power: 91	I agree with Mom2Many. You can not expect others to do your research for you and then critize the information they give you. If you want particular types of information from certain sources then you should do the legwork yourself. The companies that pay for the majority of research for vaccines are the pharmaceutical companies who have spent tons of money developing them. It is unlikely that they are going to publish any report that is not favorable towards them. It is also common knowledge alot of the dangers of vaccines have not been divuldged by the CDC and other federal agencies because they fear people weighing the risks and choosing not to vaccinate. There is a good yahoo group called the Truth About Vaccines that contains alot of information that may be useful to you as atleast a jumping off point for research.
	__________________ Courtesy of Rip "A dog is not "almost human," and I know of no greater insult to the canine race than to describe it as such." -John Holmes

09-01-2005, 12:05 PM	#10 (permalink)
Mom2Many Owned by 1 GSD & 1 APBT Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Untangling Gunnar's Leash Posts: 873 Rep Power: 92	http://www.holisticat.com/vaccinations.html http://www.vaccines.bizland.com/lkj.htm http://f4.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/kDMXQzD...e%20blkwht.pdf http://f5.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/kDMXQ1k...20Vaccines.doc http://f4.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/kDMXQ1q...ue%20Study.doc http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/kDMXQze...0of%20Vaccines http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/kDMXQyc...er%20Virus.htm This is just the tip of the iceberg...there is an enormous amount of information to be found about the dangers of yearly vaccinations if you care to look. But once again, whether or not you vaccinate your dogs yearly is no skin off my butt...continue to pay your vet for needless expenses, I am sure they appreciate all the business you throw their way! Although I must say I am suprised that someone in the medical field would be so ignorant to the way vaccinations work in our bodies. Memory cells do not die or forget what they are programmed to do...no matter how long it has been since the invader has been introduced. It is what makes us such an interesting/complex world that we are so well prepared to defend ourselves against these organisms. Now where is your proof that we need yearly vaccinations for our animals? I haven't seen you present any contradictory information...bring it on!
	__________________ Thanks to Keyodie for the beautiful signature! SAY NO TO BSL!

09-01-2005, 01:15 PM	#12 (permalink)
Crossfire Bulldogs Sourmug Mom Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Snuggled Between The Snorts & Snores. Posts: 7,844 Blog Entries: 3 Rep Power: 285	Hmm, put a collar on it and walk it with the dogs? Closed minded? Ignorant? Wow. Thats it folks, before this goes any further down the wrong road lets stick to giving what information we have rather than finding new and sometimes colorful ways to tell someone to kiss off shall we. Information can be a wonderful thing and it really is up to us to decide what is best for our individual dogs as well as life in general. Only you can make that decision and what may be right for one may not be right for another. Each one of us must do our own research to come to a conclusion. This is an area for information not a debate section, looking to debate the issue of vaccines then check the current debate Are all the shots the vets pump our Best Friends with killing them?? or start your own. Any more jabs here and you'll leave me with no choice but to close this thread.
	__________________ Get more out of Global Paw. Check out these great features. Global Paw Book Club -- Art Classes -- Woof Review I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~ Gerry Spence As a member of Global paw staff my opinions are not necessarily those of the website or the owner.