To Neuter or not to Neuter???

[Shalva]

I think the problem here is that the question is would I personally neuter my dog.... not whether I think people in general should neuter but would I personally do so and the answer to that is no I would not..... I know that I can be responsible and am responsible with my dogs.... I do show.... I have a bitch who was in the top ten of her breed and I have another boy who is an Am. Can. Ch. (who is getting neutered by the way due to seizures when the girls come into season).... I have a boy currently showing and a couple bitches currently showing...... So no I would not neuter and if Cuinn didn't have the seizures he has I would not be neutering him.....

Now the question one might ask me is if I think that my pet puppies should be neutered and the answer is yes..... I do want them neutered and its in the contract that they should be neutered just not before they reach maturity.... and I set that age at 18 mos. to 2 years of age. So yes I want them neutered and will make rare exception to that...... but personally would I neuter a dog of mine without a darned good reason.... probably not.... but ask me that when I get my wolfhound someday.... I really want a pet boy wolfhound..... I dont want to show him (I say that now mind you) but will I want to deal with bitches in season and a boy dog that is not ever going to bred or shown.... probably not...... but ya know here is where we get in to can I really make a blanket statement that the poll is asking for ..... probably not.

pet dog wolfhound no bitches in the house to come into season..... no I wouldn't neuter

pet boy wolfhound pet quality with bitches coming into season then yes I probably would.

show dog boy, finished, possible use at stud...... no

show dog boy finished, never use at stud but no real reason to neuter other than annoying me when the girls come in..... probably not

show dog boy finished health problems yes neuter.....

so who knows.

[TribalRats]

I agree with you Sandoggy.

[shandoggy1]

Originally Posted by Shalva

I think the problem here is that the question is would I personally neuter my dog.... not whether I think people in general should neuter but would I personally do so and the answer to that is no I would not..... I know that I can be responsible and am responsible with my dogs.... I do show.... I have a bitch who was in the top ten of her breed and I have another boy who is an Am. Can. Ch. (who is getting neutered by the way due to seizures when the girls come into season).... I have a boy currently showing and a couple bitches currently showing...... So no I would not neuter and if Cuinn didn't have the seizures he has I would not be neutering him.....

Now the question one might ask me is if I think that my pet puppies should be neutered and the answer is yes..... I do want them neutered and its in the contract that they should be neutered just not before they reach maturity.... and I set that age at 18 mos. to 2 years of age. So yes I want them neutered and will make rare exception to that...... but personally would I neuter a dog of mine without a darned good reason.... probably not.... but ask me that when I get my wolfhound someday.... I really want a pet boy wolfhound..... I dont want to show him (I say that now mind you) but will I want to deal with bitches in season and a boy dog that is not ever going to bred or shown.... probably not...... but ya know here is where we get in to can I really make a blanket statement that the poll is asking for ..... probably not.

pet dog wolfhound no bitches in the house to come into season..... no I wouldn't neuter

pet boy wolfhound pet quality with bitches coming into season then yes I probably would.

show dog boy, finished, possible use at stud...... no

show dog boy finished, never use at stud but no real reason to neuter other than annoying me when the girls come in..... probably not

show dog boy finished health problems yes neuter.....

so who knows.

Shalva, you are a breeder so obviously you are going to keep your dogs intact for the show ring etc. But what I don't understand is why you let people who take a pet quality dog and let it stay intact until it is 18 months to two years. That male has a chance of breeding and producing more pet overpopulation problem oops! I think by the age of one year would suffice for growth development. I am not neutering my male until he is a year old so he can mature. Do you spay your females once they are done breeding and showing? I met alot of people who would have two dogs being one male and one female and spay the female and leave the male intact but it was mostly the men owners that I have met working in the dog world that would do that. At least they are trying to be responsible by fixing one but I don't think it is right. Shalva, what kind of dogs do you breed?

[Shalva]

I have flat coated and golden retrievers.....
and I dont want to get yelled at for getting offthe topic at hand.... but I do think that males are better off allowed to mature... however keep in mind that for my last litter I had 30 applications for 6 puppies. Everyone had to come to my house and have an interview and then I had to talk to them on a regular basis and they had to come to visit the puppies at least a few more times. I didn't tell anyone if they were getting a puppy until the pups were 8 weeks old and they stayed at my house for 9 weeks.... this next litter I will likely keep them until ten weeks.

If I felt even an inkling of distrust with any of my puppy families they wouldn't have gotten a puppy..... I mean the reality is that if a person is going to fool me and make me think they are trustworthy when they are not.... unless I s/n my pups before they leave my house what difference does it make..... if they are going to be irresponsible they are going to be irresponsible.... whether I require s/n at 8 mos. or 18 mos. I think the key is that I very very very carefully screen my families..... I went to their homes. I made sure they had physical fences which is in the contract...no electric fences allowed. all the puppies were chipped with me as first contact so if a puppy of mine is picked up they call me first.... they were all required to go to 2 levels of obedience and I would not sign off on the registration papers until I had proof that this was all done.

There are many studies.... I just sent the citations to crossfire.... one indicates a 74% higher risk in some breeds of osteosarcoma..... in neutered males.... that is an incredible increase by earlier neutering.... my job as the breeder is doing what is right for my puppies.... they are who I care about..... I held them in my hands when they were born and I have constant contact with their owners to this day.... and when I read a statistic like that in a breed that already has one of the highest cancer rates out there..... (flat coated retrievers have an average lifespan of 6 due to cancer, pretty darned scary) then I have to consider what is best for that puppy.... and for that puppy it is to wait until maturity to neuter..... that is not to mention some of the other health risks of neutering prior to maturity.....

This is not about macho-ness or about testicles... to have or not to have them.... for me its about cancer and the health of that puppy that I had a part in bringing into the world.

Again I think the poll should have had a third option for I show my dogs so I can't spay or neuter.....

But i can tell you that even many of the breeders who require early spay or neuter will hold off on their own dogs and the dogs of friends and relatives..... it really is just better for the dog....

S

[shandoggy1]

Thanks Shalva! You seem like you are very much in love with your breed and you know what you are doing and who you can trust. I'm glad you get a feeling for the person before you trust them with your pups. I have met people who have adopted out of shelters who never took the dogs back at six months to have them fixed as you should have when you adopt from a shelter. These are obviously very untrustworthy people . I have a male ACD (cattle dog) who is 5 months old and the vet tried pushing me to make the 6 month neutering app. I told them I wasn't fixing him till he was over a year old. Of course I got the cancer and aggression thing from them and it got me mad. ACD's are a very muscular breed and I want to allow him to mature and grow properly. Do you think I should wait till he is a year and a half or older? I am going to see how he is as he increases with age and testosterone. He is already very protective of me and the house and the breed is highly suspicious of strangers. They are not a breed for everyone!

[Shalva]

Originally Posted by shandoggy1

Thanks Shalva! You seem like you are very much in love with your breed and you know what you are doing and who you can trust. I'm glad you get a feeling for the person before you trust them with your pups. I have met people who have adopted out of shelters who never took the dogs back at six months to have them fixed as you should have when you adopt from a shelter. These are obviously very untrustworthy people . I have a male ACD (cattle dog) who is 5 months old and the vet tried pushing me to make the 6 month neutering app. I told them I wasn't fixing him till he was over a year old. Of course I got the cancer and aggression thing from them and it got me mad. ACD's are a very muscular breed and I want to allow him to mature and grow properly. Do you think I should wait till he is a year and a half or older? I am going to see how he is as he increases with age and testosterone. He is already very protective of me and the house and the breed is highly suspicious of strangers. They are not a breed for everyone!

I can't say what is right for you... and I dont know cattle dogs very well..... I prefer to wait to at least 18 mos..... smaller dogs mature faster and I dont know if your cattle dog is one of the smaller squatter ones or taller..... its so hard to say..... with most dogs I would say if you can handle your dog and know that you can be responsible then hold off to 18 mos. My feeling really is that you would be better served by talking to another person with cattle dogs and they can give you more breed specific information...... as a general rule I would say wait to 18 mos. it really is much better for the dog.
S

[shandoggy1]

Thanks again Shalva. He will be about 55lbs full grown and he is the more thicker,muscular built ACD more like a bull terrier which is part of the ACD's lineage. I am on a ACD chat site but most of them have the smaller version of the breed but I do get alot of info. Though, we don't talk much about neutering and spaying as much as we do on this site.

[sugarloafer22]

save yourself the hassle of an in tact male dog and neuter. There are too many homeless puppies out there to start with, no need to risk one accident. They smell better neutered, they behave better neutered, and they live better neutered. I can't stand un fixed male dogs, they drive me nuts! I fix my boys at the earliest age possible if the vet will do it at 8 weeks I will, if they won't do it until 4 months, then fine. But I think the 6 month cut off is silly for the boys and only sensible for the girls. I'm babbling. Short answer: no debate...fix him.

[Shalva]

Originally Posted by sugarloafer22

save yourself the hassle of an in tact male dog and neuter. There are too many homeless puppies out there to start with, no need to risk one accident. They smell better neutered, they behave better neutered, and they live better neutered. I can't stand un fixed male dogs, they drive me nuts! I fix my boys at the earliest age possible if the vet will do it at 8 weeks I will, if they won't do it until 4 months, then fine. But I think the 6 month cut off is silly for the boys and only sensible for the girls. I'm babbling. Short answer: no debate...fix him.

sounds like a perfect example of doing whats good for you and the heck with what is best for the dog......

I have two intact males right now.... they don't smell any differently than any other dog..... they both have obedience titles and CGC and they are working on therapy dog titles so there goes that theory.... yes you have to train them like any other dog...... and live better??? what does that mean..... ????

If one wants to make an argument for early neutering (prior to six months) then that argument should be based in fact....
S

[sugarloafer22]

I don't mean that it's the solve for everybody. But the average dog owner doesn't know how to train and control an un altered male. For example; I am currently training a friends in tact male springer spaniel. I think springers are sort of idiots to start with (sweet, but not all together bright). He has terrible manners, and is weird and aggressive at the dog park. I get tired of stopping every ten seconds while he hikes his leg on this bush and that bush. He's getting better under my training, but the average dog owner does not dicipline their dog. Men usually want to keep their dog in tact because they are uncomfortable with it, always picturing they're own alteration. Other people want to breed for fun or money, neither of which are acceptable reasons for breeding because it involves so much more than the casual get together and the fun of litters of puppies. I work at a pet store where I have to deal with the average and below average/ beginning and intermediate dog owners. I know a lot of people out there are irresponsible which is why I tend to say "hang it all" and just all together fix everything. I'd say the same for humans if asked. For all the customers at the pet store all I can do is try to educate them on the best choices for their life style and teach them what I can about training, manners, and try to encourage them to fix their pets regardless of personal feelings.
I do like my dogs fixed young because I have had nothing but great experiences with it. My golden retriever charlie lived to be 16 years old, with no problems up to his last day with the exception of the stroke that killed him. He was neutered at 3.5 months. Never lifted his leg, never killed a fly, mothered every baby animal (kittens, goat kids, chicks, birds, even my filly). He was the most wonderful thing that I ever got to know...my main reason for the young neuter reccomendation.
For breeders and trainers such as yourself, YOU are capable of having un altered dogs in general. I only recommend for the normal pet owner.
that's all. I meant no offense

[Shalva]

Originally Posted by sugarloafer22

I know a lot of people out there are irresponsible which is why I tend to say "hang it all" and just all together fix everything. I'd say the same for humans if asked. For all the customers at the pet store all I can do is try to educate them on the best choices for their life style and teach them what I can about training, manners, and try to encourage them to fix their pets regardless of personal feelings.

For breeders and trainers such as yourself, YOU are capable of having un altered dogs in general. I only recommend for the normal pet owner.
that's all. I meant no offense

OK that makes perfect sense. and I would like to alter the majority of people that I meet as well ..... but ok what you are saying makes sense to me.... I am not a fan of early neutering and I want my dogs to reach maturity but I am dealing with carefully screened folks.....
I just had one of my show puppies neutered because the owner was inept and I didn't feel she could be trusted with an intact dog... so your points are well taken and I wasn't offended at all.....

good logical post.....
S

[Ritz459]

Blackie was neutered because we didn't want unwanted puppies (a little bit to late for that though...that is how Rose came into being...lol) and he had developed a bad roaming habit and was starting to get really dominant. (Of course, my parents hadn't trained him...) Also for the health reasons.
Rose was spayed because we didn't want puppies and for health reasons. Besides, non of my dogs are breeding quality. And if a dog isn't breeding quality then it should be spayed, IMO.

[shandoggy1]

Originally Posted by sugarloafer22

save yourself the hassle of an in tact male dog and neuter. There are too many homeless puppies out there to start with, no need to risk one accident. They smell better neutered, they behave better neutered, and they live better neutered. I can't stand un fixed male dogs, they drive me nuts! I fix my boys at the earliest age possible if the vet will do it at 8 weeks I will, if they won't do it until 4 months, then fine. But I think the 6 month cut off is silly for the boys and only sensible for the girls. I'm babbling. Short answer: no debate...fix him.

Sugarloafer LOL! I know exactly what you mean about boy "ODOR" for intact males. I used to groom intact males and would have to get upclose and personal with them yuck! That boy juice is always leaking out of them and it does smell. Maybe the people with intact males are just immune to it and therefore don't have a nose for it anymore. I had this nasty conversation a couple months back with another owner of an intact male. She said her dog didn't smell either. Oh well, who knows!

[Chelsea]

Both my golden boys were neutered this summer. Shadow was nine, Taj was three - I'd been lobbying for it for some time, but my dad wasn't having any of it. Finally we went through with it. I'm glad we did for Taj - he had no problems, and he's now pretty much in the clear for any sort of testicular/prostate problem, plus, if he were ever to escape, I don't have to worry about who he's impregnating. I wish we hadn't neutered Shadow, though. At least, not so late in his life. He had a very hard time with it, physically; it wasn't so much the nueter itself as the pain meds we had him on afterwards. He got wise of us trying to stick them in his food, and rejected food altogether for about a week and a half, and was as lifeless as we'd ever seen him. I don't think I'll ever neuter a nine-year-old dog again; at least, not one in Shadow's condition (he's aged far faster than he should have, and acts like a fifteen-year-old).

I had done my research, and thought it was best for them. I'm glad it's all over and done with; I'm a very strong advocate for neutering pet animals, whether or not there is a female "in heat" in the house. Just because their isn't a female in heat one day, week, year doesn't mean there won't be tomorrow, next week, next year, or that your dog won't hop fences (or dig under fences or whatever he has to do) to get to one. There is a very high success rate for that type of surgery, and it eliminates their risk for testicular cancer, while diminishing their risk for prostate cancer. With the overpopulation problem, I just don't think it's worth the risk, no matter how much I trust my dog or my training ability.

However, I would like to note that neutering my boys did not change their temperments in any way; both are still sweet, loving, and goofy, and Tajik still has a problem with kids. Both the good, the bad, and the ugly are still present. I never noticed any "odor" while they were intact, though, and noticed no change afterwards. They also never had any problems with spraying/marking.

So, for me and mine, neutering was the best option for Taj, and we shouldn't have waited so long to do it with Shadow. In general, I think the AVERAGE pet owner should most definately neuter their male animals (this includes cats and, if possible, rabbits; there's a very big overpopulation problem with rabbits), as well as their females. For the average conformaton/sporting enthusiast, I think it should come down to their decision as to whether or not their dog will make a positive impact on the breed by being bred. If so, by all means, keep them intact until the need to alter them arises. Otherwise, I think they should be neutered/spayed. Accidents can and do happen (to everyone, I might add). Is neutering worth all the risks involved? I think so. Is not neutering worth all the risks involved? I'm not so sure.

[annie_so_pink]

I would say definately neuter! My Wesley was neutered when he was 5 months old and I am so glad! My Theo(R.I.P) was not neutered and developed prostate cancer...then the vet said it would help to neuter him, so he went in for it and they could not do it because they discovered(with bloodwork) that he had Kidney Failure... If I could only roll the clocks back and change it! For the last few months of Theo's life, he was incontinent because of it...I wish that we would have neutered him earlier and saved him all the pain and discomfort of becoming incontinent and having prostate cancer...believe me, NEUTER!!!!