Barf, Menue?

[D.Schäferhund]

Hello
I want to start barfing, because I like the idea. I finally got arround to do better research and set my mind to it. What made me looking into it and finally doing it? My dogfood is far away, have to drive for hours or have it shipped. and I want variety the dogfood, i soemtimes used i can't get it at all here.

So I did my research now, know how much to feed and what I can feed, looked up some Menues...
But my worrying myself is not satisfied, yet.
I want to make sure that I have a Diet that includes everything my dog needs, i know with all foods how much to feed will be seen over time.
Maybe you all can help me out with writing your menueplans. I know it is not always the same and you probably do not stick to a certain plan.
But i want to know, what not to forget in a weeks or months diet.
I would really appreciate that.
Thank you

[Shalva]

I have been feed a raw diet for about five years now and I have switched all new puppies in my house to raw cold turkey immediately upon arrival. I can also say that I weaned my last litter onto raw and 5 of the six puppies are still eating a raw diet.....

My belief about raw diet is that you can scare yourself to death about making sure that you have exact amounts of everything but I really don't think you need to do that..... think about your own diet and the food pyramid.... you might not eat everyhting on that food pyramid every day but if you look at your diet over a couple 3 weeks or a month you are probably pretty close. Variety is the spice of life and as long as your dogs are getting a good variety of foods you are good to go....

My dogs get two different proteins from this list...... they get one in the mroning meal and one different in the evening meal.... seldome do they get the same protein at both meals unless I screw up and forget to take osmething out of the freezer.
chicken mix (with veggies)
turkey mix (with veggies)
beef mix (with veggies)
chicken necks (whole)
mackeral (in cans, I tried to feed my dogs a whole fish once and they had no clue what to do with it)
baked beans

Everyday at one meal they get one of the following:
yoghurt (my dogs get vanilla, they hate plain)
cottage cheese

Veggies: are given once a day..... and are combinations of 2 above and 2 below ground veggies..... I am lucky that I no longer have to grind my own veggies because the meat that I have shipped generally has enough veggies in it and they like it and I can't be bothered.....
I really dont think the veggies are all that important..... however, 2 above might be lettuce and kale, 2 below might be sweet potato and carrot.
I do not feed nightshade veggies, eggplants, tomatos.....

Then there is the sometimes I feed :
molasses
mashed potatos
dinner leftovers
rice
oatmeal (some dogs don't do well on grains so judge your own dog)
pork chop again leftovers
bananas
apples

we feed it all and again I look and see what I have in my fridge for leftovers and if it is ok for them I give it to them.....

now how much do I feed.... I dont know.... I dont measure.... I look at the food and see what it looks like and I feed it.... and make a mental note of how much .... if they look like they are gaining I cut back.... if they feel thin I increase.... it really becomes a gut feeling that you get.... trust your instincts. I have read a pound and a half of food a day but ya know for some of my dogs that would be about right for others they would be thin as rails.... you have to see how much excercise your dogs get and what hteir metabolism is like.

I do supplement wiht fish oil, vitamin c, and nupro but I dont use the nupro all the time.... just if the dogs are very very busy or I feel like they are a little dull looking.....

My breeder gets nutty about her dogs diet.... she measures she weighs ..... she has a routine and a schedule.... I am just not a routine and schedule type person.... I am more a fly by the seat kinda girl.....

Like I said I think that you can make yourself crazy about raw.... and I will tell you that at the beginning it is alot of mental energy but you just have to jump in and do it.... I switched because I had a sick dog and he couldnt eat kibble ..... I had no choice but to jump in whole hog and do it..... and it was work and it was stressful and darn if I didn't forget to take meat and veggies out of the freezer 3 times a week, but it got easier and now... i honestly have to say I would NEVER go back to kibble..... I cringe when I am at the grocery or petco and I see folks walking out with 35 lb bags of kibble.... I just think that how can it have good ingredients when it has a 6 mos. shelf life and costs 40 bucks for 35 lbs.

So good luck.....
I will be happy to help in any way that I can.......
jump in....
you will be glad you did.
s

[Owned by Lucy]

From my perspective all of the hassle and "creation" described above is un-neccessary at best and detrimental at worst.

Dogs are CARNIVORES. They have the jaw structure for ripping and tearing meat not for grinding grains and veggies (ie sharp pointly teeth and a jaw that only goes up and down not side to side). Every nutrient a carnivore needs is found in raw meat, raw bones and raw organs. A good variety of different meats (beef, pork, foul and deep water fish), body parts (arms, legs, heads, middles) and organs (liver, kidney, tripe, pancreas) will give all the nutrients needed. It is also important that they get most of these parts in LARGE pieces so that they have to use their teeth, jaws, necks, shoulders, paws and brains to eat the food. If you feed all or mostly ground you are depriving them of the joy of eating, the exercise of eating and most importantly the time for the stomach to adequately prepare for the arrival of the food by creating enough acid and digestive enzymes.

On veggies. In the wild, veggies and fruits are windfalls. They come around seasonally and would only be consumed, in the absence of prey animals, as filler until meat could be found. The stomach of the large prey animals are rarely consumed because of the high acid content that makes it very bitter. So while the stomach muscle is often eaten the stuff in it is shaken out before consumption. So, if you want to feed veggies go for it, but don't feed them at the expence of the meat, bones and offal they really need. About 2-5% of the diet is my cut off for veggies unless I am trying to slim down an overweight dog and need filler.

Dairy products are also wholely unnecessary and are a common cause of gas and runny stools in adult dogs as many stop producing lactase (enzyme that digests the lactose in milk) and become lactose intolerant. This is another give it if you want but not a the expence of what they really need. The same goes for grains, rice, corn and sugary stuff like molasses or honey. These things can be detrimental because many dogs are allergic to them and can cause things like hot spots, runny eyes, excessive itchyness and some times excessive energy.

I do on occassion feed leftovers. These are usually trimmings from meat, left over veggies (from plates), little bits of whatever I happen to be eating or things that have been in the fridge too long for us. Again this does not make up a significant portion of the intake. Total of "windfall" foods is 2-5%

To figure out how much to feed. For large dogs I start with 2-4% of ideal adult weight. My 50 pounder gets about 1lb per day (on average). 2% for easy keeper and 4% for those with higher metabolism. For small dogs it can go as high as 10% if the dog has high metabolism or is very active. At this point I do very little weighing and some days may be more plentiful then others. If the dog gets chubby cut down and if they get to skinny feed more. It is not necessary to feed an exact amount every day but to average out over a week, month or more. What I usually do is by enough food for 30-60 days and cut it up in to large pieces at natural delineations. By this method some pieces may be 2-3 lbs and some may only be 5-8 onces or so. So over the couse of the next 30-60 days she will get 30-60lb of meat but it is more of a "gorge and fast" situation. This comes in real handy for camping and road trips as I can feed a big meal before we leave then a couple of days of small, easily packable meals.

Menu plans are un-necessary and will only serve to make you neurotic about it. I usually start with one protein source for 2-4 weeks to help lessen loose stools and gas. Chicken or turkey are good starting points. I would start by buying a two week supply (15lb for a 50lb dogs, 30 lbs for a 100lb dogs etc...). Hack the foul into pieces that are about a daily ration and freeze (or feed it whole if you are that adventurous to begin with). You want the pieces as big as you can get them to facilitate chewing and prevent gulping. Hold off on the organs for 2 weeks or so and then add them in small amounts and slowing increase. Organs are very potent and some animals handle them better than others. I usually feed with a really boney meal since they can sometimes cause loose stools when fed alone. There are some great yahoo groups with thousands of people who raw feed several thousand dogs. They have been an enormous help to me. In addition you should try to find a co-op or buying group as it really helps to get prices down. I pay, on average, under $1.00 per pound meat/bone/offal and I am able to get a wide variety of meat from rabbit, beef, pork, foul, emu, ortrich and may others.

[elegy]

i don't have any "menu" either. i've only been doing this for three months now, but i just try to find a variety of both cuts of meat and animals, and feed what i can find. in the past week my dogs have had (off the top of my head) chicken leg quarters, whole chicken cut up, turkey thighs, beef ribs, beef heart, chicken hearts/gizzards, pork intestines, pork necks (very boney so i feed with a different type of muscle meat to even things out), canned mackerel, and some ground beef (it was on sale). and eggs (with shell).

i do feed veggies. not very much- maybe 2-3% of their total diet. but they like them and it adds some variety. they also get yogurt sometimes and cottage cheese sometimes (neither gets gas or loose stools from dairy). i try to avoid grains.

[Shalva]

Originally Posted by Owned by Lucy

From my perspective all of the hassle and "creation" described above is un-neccessary at best and detrimental at worst.

detrimental???? pray tell
S

[D.Schäferhund]

Hi
thanks for the answers so far, i understood tha basics of BARF but i am a worrier and I want to make sure, thats why i asked for menues. but i appreciate all your concerns. I have to doublecheck, just to make sure.... I will not stick to a menue either but i want to make sure that I am not missing an important part that might lead to a deficiancy in some sort.

I contacted to meat lockers today, they sell meatboxes or bags, one i do not know what is in it ,the other one said he just puts meatscraps in there,(what he has left after processing) nothing from the "backyard". will get a bag tomorrow and see what is in it, may be able to get some deer there too. and will ask for some rumen and innerds bones and tails etc. Let's see what we get there....

I will feed veggies and I will feed diary, because they love it, i never had problems with yoghurt or cottage cheese, wich is also often recommended when there was a diarreah going on.

Kat

[Owned by Lucy]

If you actually read the whole post you would have seen were I pointed out what was detrimental about it. But I will reiterate.

First the grinding. By feeding everything to the ground you deprive them the opportunity to workout their bodies and minds and it removes the teeth cleaning aspect of the food. Also, there are some nutrients that are so heat sensitive that even the fairly small amount of heat created by grinding denatures them. This is alot more dangerous to cats becuase of their need for taurine which is the most easily denaturable. It ground bone is also more likely to cause impaction by binding together like concrete.

Veggie mush. Dogs are made to eat meat. Their digestive systems are not equiped to digest and absorb nutrients from plant matter (grains, fruits and veggies). So, if plant matter is taking up a large amount of space in the diet then the dog can suffer from nutritional deficiencies because they are not getting enough meat/bones/offal. This is a major problem with the premade mixes is one they have such a high percentage of plant matter and a large percentage of bone.

[Shalva]

well you know little about what I feed.....
first I feed whole necks......
second I have a friend who has been feeding raw for about ten years who had two dogs with a punctured esophogus due to feeding raw backs and wings and one who nearly choked to death on a turkey neck so I choose to buy ground combinations....

my understanding as billinghurst puts it is that the dogs would eat the stomach contents of a small animal caught.... did you read where I said I thought that veggies were not that important or did you miss that section of my post...... I do feed veggies.... not alot but you assumed that I did..... if anything my premade diet that I use a couple times a week doesn't have enough veggies.... several of us who put the order in for the meat shipment commented on the fact that the veggies seem a bit slim..... but gosh you wouldn't know that either because you made assumptions.

the fact is that everyone seems to do a raw diet a little differently
if the person above is actually following a barf diet then veggies are included in that diet..... I never said I followed a barf diet.... I dont ..... I follow a raw diet that has worked for my dogs for years.... now while some dogs may not be able to eat what my dogs eat.... or may not do well on particular ingredients.... my dogs are fine.... and that was the question......

again in my opinion its all about variety....
while dogs do not need grains my dogs like them..... well everyone except cuinn so he doesn't get them.
while dogs do not need a lot of veggies. I am reticent about telling a person to get rid of them altogether lest they think that a raw diet means throwing meat down for your dogs and thats it.....
my dogs also love yoghurt and cottage cheese and the bacteria in yoghurt is good for them.....
I do not feed eggs as two of my dogs have trouble with the egg whites.... that is fairly common in dogs....

A raw diet is a bit about trial and error and what works for one person may or may not work for another...... it is about seeing what your dogs need, like,have trouble with.... and feeding a variety.

I dont know about you but I have seen raw fed dogs that look like cartoon dogs...... and it has to do with variety.....

my dogs are healthy, happy, look great, successfull in the breed ring.... the youngest who was weaned onto raw is a beautiful healthy dog..... and while you may do your diet a little differently than I do mine, I object strongly to your characterization of what I do being detrimental with so little information about my dogs and why I choose to feed like I do.... Shoot my vet who was dead set against raw diet is now reconsidering his stance on raw diet after watching my pack grow and develop.

so the person above asked what some of us do..... I answered that question.... I could make a few comments on your feeding routine but I chose not to do that.....clearly in your need to critique my diet you missed the entire point about variety.....

once again
variety is the spice of life......
s

[D.Schäferhund]

To the veggie part: The innerds belly etc, contain alot of predigested greens, and Wolfs and dogs eat it, so they eat greens. predigested is obviously better but not always available. dogs love rumen and other stuff that is in the tummy, and you do not have to wash it to give it to them, they will love to eat it with all thats in it.

I guess how you feed is your personal thing....
and if so i like discussions about that and hearing peoples oppinions, it does not help me right now to see If i miss something, that might be essential. thats why i tried and still try to get various oppinions.
I ask to put that essential discussion in second place.
Or open a nother thread. Please do not make it a personal discussion i here.
i really appreciate your oppinions, do not get me wrong, but please stick to the subject.
Thank you.

[Owned by Lucy]

Originally Posted by Shalva

well you know little about what I feed.....
first I feed whole necks......
second I have a friend who has been feeding raw for about ten years who had two dogs with a punctured esophogus due to feeding raw backs and wings and one who nearly choked to death on a turkey neck so I choose to buy ground combinations....

I don't feed backs or necks of foul (or other such small, really boney parts) unless they are attached to the rest of the bird. These pieces by themselves are small enough for all but the smallest dogs to swallow whole and this is what causes probles like you describe above. Feeding gound is not the solution to this problem feeding large items with more meat on them is. Larger items requires the dogs to chew everything and stops the gulping down of food which is what causes.

Originally Posted by Shalva

I am reticent about telling a person to get rid of them altogether lest they think that a raw diet means throwing meat down for your dogs and thats it.....

That is exactly what prey model raw feeding is about and exactly what I do. Simply giving your dogs what they would eat in nature. Meat wrapped around a bone with all the tendons, senue and whatever else attached. With appropriate percentages of the organs thown in for good measure. The idea is to feed as close to mother nature as possible. When I can I feed whole animals (chickens, turkeys, rabbits) when I can totally intact. When I can't, I devise "frankenprey" by feeding a varieny of body parts from a wide variety of different animals.

You had also mentioned Billinghurst. In the book he wrote in 1993, "Give Your Dog a Bone" he did advocate the feeding of backs, necks and other pieces with high bone content and veggie slop. In the more recent past he has publicly stated that he never felt this was the best way to feed dogs but was afraid that the descriptions of prey model raw feeding would "scare people off" from raw feeding. I would recommending Tom Lonsdales books "Work Wonders" and "Raw Meaty Bone" as must reads for any raw feeder.

I didn't mean to insult you at all. My only intention was to put forth the information I have gathered from tons of research and my experience. I attempted to give rational, well researched reasons for the opinions i voiced. If you don't like the informaiton or feel it is unreasonable then please ignore it as it was not for you benefit anyway. As far as commenting on the may I feed, please feel free to do so. I am open to constructive critizism and if you can give me rational reasons why something I am doing is harming my animals I would take them into consideration. I am only trying to do what is best for my animals. As Mya Angalou said "I did then what I knew then and when I knew better I did better". The more I know the better I can do.

I will not comment further on this topic.

[Hugo]

well here is what i do for hugo and my 3 little poodles.
hugo weighs about 85-88 lbs and i try to feed him somewhere from 1.5-2.5lbs a day. some days he gets more some days less. i usually will let him decide (if he acts hungrier i simply feed him more. somedays he might just pick so he gets less). his daily meals are mostly raw meat, chicken necks, backs, wings, legs, thighs, gizzards and hearts, ground burger, stew beef pieces, turkey either ground or whole pieces if i can get him to eat turkey (he doesnt really like it), eggs (scrambled or poached), other meats (whatever i can get at a good price). he will eat one or more of these daily. a couple of times a week i give him "goop" (i call it) which is lightly steamed chopped veggies such as brocolli, cauliflower, greenbeans, carrots, peas, spinach, greens, apples, blueberries, various other fruits, whatever i have in the freezer or fridge. along with the veggie and/or fruit mix i will add cooked brown rice, whole oats, other highly nutritious grains (but not corn, wheat or soy). i also give canned pumpkin. i dont really do the dairy products except if i have a little milk leftover from my cereal or maybe a spoon of yogurt i might be eating myself.

for my poodles, i really dont do the raw meat with them, instead i cook meat (ground meat such as turkey, chicken or leanest beef), tuna, chunks of chicken or pork added into a oatmeal or brown rice goop with at least 2 or 3 veggies (carrots, green beans, peas, rutabagas, squash, brocolli, cauliflower, apples, greens, blueberries, whatever i have in the fridge or cabinet). they each eat about 1 cup of this (sometimes more) a day, divided up into 2 or 3 meals. i never really measure anymore, i usually just eyeball it. i have in the past month taken the poodles off kibble completely (too much unbelievable stuff in dog food).

all the dogs get added vitamins, fish oil caps, bone meal powder, olive and canola oil, ground parsley flakes, flax seeds and flax seed meal.

i used to worry about not providing a complete meal for the dogs, but i am convinced that my cooking is way better than any prepared dog food out there. i use fresh ingredients, no preservatives, no additives and as long as they are getting meat and various veggies along with some grains, that has to be more nutritionally complete than dog food in a bag or can.

since i have been feeding this way, they have been feeling great and there has been no gas or diarhea or vomitting as would happen sometimes with dogfood.

i think there is no exact science on the raw (in my case partially raw) diet. you will have to experiment with some different meal plans, but one thing is variety is GOOD
shellie~

[Hugo]

i meant to add hugo has been on raw for over a year solid. before that i gave him dogfood and raw meat (never together in the same meal). since switching to raw 100 % i think his coat is much nicer, way less dander and odor, less poop, he doesnt have to drink as much water (which is nice when you own a dog with a big thick beard!) and breath and teeth are nice and clean. he rarely has stomach upset or diarhea which was quite common with kibble.
shellie~

[D.Schäferhund]

Thank you
I guess my diet will not be a 100percent pure Barf, they still will get scraps etc.

I got my meatbags from the locker today.
It appears to be not bad stuff. They do it for the greyhounds, the most time.
There is fat but a lot of dark meat i there, she said they have all kinds of innerds in there, too. and got some Tails. One bag wasn't that good it was just gfat, but oh well for two dollars a 15lb bag, that's fine.

My problem i have now ist just that: these 15lb bags are frozen solid, they have to do that, because of health issues, thats why i can't get rumen either.
Can i refreeze the meat, so i can thaugh it and make portions? Or do i have to get the chainsaw out???

[Shalva]

you can do it a couple of ways and it might take some trial and error to figure out what works best.....

you can partially thaw and then refreeze if necessary..... but also it is worth figuring out how long the meat will last you .... with my five retrievers I use ten pounds of meat per day.... so I would just take out thefifteen pound bag and defrost and put in the fridge and it would hold until it was used up..... I dont know how many dogs you have or are feeding..... i assume you have shepherds.... with one shepherd you are probably going to find that fifteen pounds will last 3-4 days so it may very well hold... but because it is likely scraps it may not hold.... it is going to be a bit of trial and error.....

if you are feeding two dogs then the likelihood is that you can just defrost and refrigerate....
its hard to figure but is something that you just have to figure out.... but yes you can partially defrost and refreeze... I do it all the time.... just don't fully defrost and let it get to room temp before refreezing.
s

I have five dogs and

[GSD]

some of the stuff i buy is fronzen in bulk, i just thaw, rinse myself and put it in gallong freezer bags and re-freeze it. that way I can take a bag, out and thaw it as I need it, usually every 2-3 days depending on what bags of stuff i've grabbed.