Cesar Artcle in the New York times

sammy · 08-31-2006, 03:05 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/31/op...in&oref=slogin

***Carrie*** · 08-31-2006, 04:22 PM

Right on. It makes you wonder why people can't get it... what he's doing to these animals. He doesn't know **** about canine behavior. He knows one concept...domination, intimidation, poking, jerking, alpha rolling. What real leader in the canine world acts like that? Only a bully treats a dog like that.

bigdoglover · 08-31-2006, 05:00 PM

Shows how "old school" he is. Can you imagine if I had "alpha rolled" Carlo? I don't think I would be alive to tell about it.

sammy · 08-31-2006, 05:05 PM

"Women are the worst offenders in his world. In one of the outtakes included in the four-DVD set of the first season of “Dog Whisperer,” Mr. Millan explains that a woman is “the only species that is wired different from the rest.” And a “woman always applies affection before discipline,” he says. “Man applies discipline then affection, so we’re more psychological than emotional. All animals follow dominant leaders; they don’t follow lovable leaders.”

I knew I didn't like the majority of his methods but to find out he's sexist too? Nice

***Carrie*** · 08-31-2006, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Shows how "old school" he is. Can you imagine if I had "alpha rolled" Carlo? I don't think I would be alive to tell about it.

A scary thought! I never saw him do that to a really big dog, but he did on a Chow-Golden mix and the dog bit him three times. What a little counter conditioning can accomplish. But oh no...that would be too undramatic for TV.

Quote:

I knew I didn't like the majority of his methods but to find out he's sexist too? Nice

Go figure...hmmm. Well, you know how we women are. None of us has a dog worth a dang. We're just too loveable. More psychological than emotional? What ever does that mean?

bigdoglover · 08-31-2006, 05:44 PM

don't get me started on the whole sexist issue.

***Carrie*** · 08-31-2006, 05:48 PM

Quote:

don't get me started on the whole sexist issue.

A-w-w come'n...why don't you tell us how you really feel? LOL

bigdoglover · 08-31-2006, 05:59 PM

LOL.....as I tell every man I meet who thinks women are brainless and weak...."boobs don't make me stupid, they're extra brain matter, and my big butt is my reserve tank of brute force to lift that VW Bug off your child".....I could go on and on, but I'd have to censor myself, and then the context would loose all meaning....RFLOL

***Carrie*** · 08-31-2006, 06:10 PM

LOL. Bigdog!

Quote:

And a “woman always applies affection before discipline,” he says.

Well, maybe his wife does but maybe she's become too calm submissive to think...because if she would be allowed to think like the rest of us, she'd know how to play the discipline cards to her advantage. "Want something? Sit first"... can translate to more creative.

bigdoglover · 08-31-2006, 06:12 PM

RFLOL!!! Excellent insight!!! And oh so true....think she's been poked in the neck too much?

Beryl · 08-31-2006, 06:30 PM

Women are more emotional than psychological? Pulease! It depends on the woman. His technique is not all that different that what women/mothers have been successfully doing with their children for centuries. Some of the same women who are not successful with their kids also fail with dogs.

I'm all woman and proud of it. Although, I'm no expert in dog training, I've had no problem establishing what I expect in my home without raising my hand -- or my fingers -- to punish. Also, I've been successful getting my dogs to obey commands without giving treats. The key, in my experience, is to start when they are puppies. I can see how it can be challenging when dogs are adopted, however.

The problem with the Dog Whisperer is that many people don't realize that the work that goes into resolving behavior problems don't fit in 30 minute episodes.

That's my take on this.

Raised By Wolves · 08-31-2006, 08:21 PM

Actually, Illusion Millan is a human psychologist. She quickly put Cesar in his place when he was not pulling his weight early in their relationship. At his seminar he mentioned "It is a wise man who knows to be submissive to his wife". I've met both of them, and they are quite a team. She is clearly the the organizer behind the business - makes sense because, as Cesar has also mentioned, women are far better at multi-tasking, than men.

But, maybe the book "Men Are From Mars, and Women Are From Venus" (another best seller) was all wrong, and men and women are exactly the same?

I can't help but notice that the majority of the clicker/treat trainers are women. Veeery interesting...

If Cesar was going to try and work with Carlos...he (Cesar) better be wearing a dress and high heels in order to see where Carlos' true "issues" lie! And, Carlos sure doesn't appear to "see" men and women the same.

Pippinislove · 08-31-2006, 10:33 PM

This is an utterly fantastic article and I definitely agree with it.

flyndog · 09-01-2006, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raised By Wolves

...I can't help but notice that the majority of the clicker/treat trainers are women. Veeery interesting...

Yes. And the majority of dog owners who choose to attend training classes of any kind are women. Veerry interesting indeed! These are my answers to a set of survey questions. The survey results were published in the August issue of Whole Dog Journal.

The percentage breakdown of my clients is about 75% female and 25% male. A woman accompanies most of the men in class.

Generally, men tend to be more reluctant to give enthusiastic praise and less animated with their dogs. Men and women take to positive training about equally but women seem to have an innate understanding of the concept. (perhaps because they value the importance of communication within a relationship and tend to be primary caregivers?). I spend more time with men explaining in technical terms why positive training works.

In general, I tend to handle their dogs and demonstrate concepts more for men than women.

Men and women learn clicker skills about the same. I give clients an option to train with or without a clicker and more women opt for the clicker.

I use a verbal marker if not using a clicker and find that men and women still learn clicker skills about the same.

Depending upon the definition of “successful”, men own well-marketed, nationally recognized large training facilities and schools that have been in business over 15 years. I don’t know why. Perhaps more men are entrepreneurs, have a business or marketing background – and have supportive wives! Generally speaking, men who come from a military dog handler or trainer background tend to use military style force-based methods of instruction. I see an overwhelming amount of successful women trainers using positive methods.

Although men often call to inquire about training or make an appointment, it is usually the woman who comes to train the dog.

bigdoglover · 09-01-2006, 03:50 PM

I will say that with my military dog handling background, it has been a hard road for me to learn how to train in a more positive manner. I am still on that road.

Yes, women are more intuitive, and sensitive. We just seem to "get it". I watch every move that my dogs make, (more than one "movement" LOL) and I think its just a woman thing. Greg doesn't understand why I am constantly watching the dogs, or with Elite every minute for 12 hours before she whelps. We just know.

I sincerely hope he (Cesar) does not think that women are the sole cause of animal misbehavior. If he does, that is putting a seriously bad taste in my mouth.

As for the dress....hhhmmmm.....I don't even own one!! RFLOL Maybe a wig and perfume? Some balloons? LOLOL I just don't think in Carlo's case his methods would work....he would get seriously hurt.

08-31-2006, 03:05 PM	#1 (permalink)
sammy herding dog lover Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: western canada Posts: 1,089 Rep Power: 113	Cesar Artcle in the New York times http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/31/op...in&oref=slogin

08-31-2006, 04:22 PM	#2 (permalink)
*Carrie* Super Moderator Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: north panhandle of Idaho Posts: 7,415 Rep Power: 285	Right on. It makes you wonder why people can't get it... what he's doing to these animals. He doesn't know **** about canine behavior. He knows one concept...domination, intimidation, poking, jerking, alpha rolling. What real leader in the canine world acts like that? Only a bully treats a dog like that.
	__________________ Get more out of Global Paw. Check out these great features. Global Paw Book Club -- Art Classes -- Woof Review As a member of Global paw staff my opinions are not necessarily those of the website or the owner.

08-31-2006, 05:00 PM	#3 (permalink)
bigdoglover Giant Schnauzers Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: West-Central Illinois Posts: 3,624 Rep Power: 177	Shows how "old school" he is. Can you imagine if I had "alpha rolled" Carlo? I don't think I would be alive to tell about it.
	__________________ Glory and Greed will destroy the breed.

08-31-2006, 05:44 PM	#6 (permalink)
bigdoglover Giant Schnauzers Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: West-Central Illinois Posts: 3,624 Rep Power: 177	don't get me started on the whole sexist issue.
	__________________ Glory and Greed will destroy the breed.

08-31-2006, 05:59 PM	#8 (permalink)
bigdoglover Giant Schnauzers Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: West-Central Illinois Posts: 3,624 Rep Power: 177	LOL.....as I tell every man I meet who thinks women are brainless and weak...."boobs don't make me stupid, they're extra brain matter, and my big butt is my reserve tank of brute force to lift that VW Bug off your child".....I could go on and on, but I'd have to censor myself, and then the context would loose all meaning....RFLOL
	__________________ Glory and Greed will destroy the breed.

08-31-2006, 05:05 PM	#4 (permalink)
sammy herding dog lover Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: western canada Posts: 1,089 Rep Power: 113	"Women are the worst offenders in his world. In one of the outtakes included in the four-DVD set of the first season of “Dog Whisperer,” Mr. Millan explains that a woman is “the only species that is wired different from the rest.” And a “woman always applies affection before discipline,” he says. “Man applies discipline then affection, so we’re more psychological than emotional. All animals follow dominant leaders; they don’t follow lovable leaders.” I knew I didn't like the majority of his methods but to find out he's sexist too? Nice

08-31-2006, 06:12 PM	#10 (permalink)
bigdoglover Giant Schnauzers Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: West-Central Illinois Posts: 3,624 Rep Power: 177	RFLOL!!! Excellent insight!!! And oh so true....think she's been poked in the neck too much?
	__________________ Glory and Greed will destroy the breed.

08-31-2006, 06:30 PM	#11 (permalink)
Beryl Latte's and Boo's Mom Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Rep Power: 88	Women are more emotional than psychological? Pulease! It depends on the woman. His technique is not all that different that what women/mothers have been successfully doing with their children for centuries. Some of the same women who are not successful with their kids also fail with dogs. I'm all woman and proud of it. Although, I'm no expert in dog training, I've had no problem establishing what I expect in my home without raising my hand -- or my fingers -- to punish. Also, I've been successful getting my dogs to obey commands without giving treats. The key, in my experience, is to start when they are puppies. I can see how it can be challenging when dogs are adopted, however. The problem with the Dog Whisperer is that many people don't realize that the work that goes into resolving behavior problems don't fit in 30 minute episodes. That's my take on this.

08-31-2006, 08:21 PM	#12 (permalink)
Raised By Wolves Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 1,523 Rep Power: 127	Actually, Illusion Millan is a human psychologist. She quickly put Cesar in his place when he was not pulling his weight early in their relationship. At his seminar he mentioned "It is a wise man who knows to be submissive to his wife". I've met both of them, and they are quite a team. She is clearly the the organizer behind the business - makes sense because, as Cesar has also mentioned, women are far better at multi-tasking, than men. But, maybe the book "Men Are From Mars, and Women Are From Venus" (another best seller) was all wrong, and men and women are exactly the same? I can't help but notice that the majority of the clicker/treat trainers are women. Veeery interesting... If Cesar was going to try and work with Carlos...he (Cesar) better be wearing a dress and high heels in order to see where Carlos' true "issues" lie! And, Carlos sure doesn't appear to "see" men and women the same.
	__________________ "There's a fine line between fishing, and just standing on the bank, looking confused." Last edited by Raised By Wolves : 08-31-2006 at 09:21 PM.

08-31-2006, 10:33 PM	#13 (permalink)
Pippinislove My best friend is a DOG. Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Computer chair Posts: 333 Rep Power: 75	This is an utterly fantastic article and I definitely agree with it.
	__________________ "It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live." -Albus Dumbledore

09-01-2006, 03:50 PM	#15 (permalink)
bigdoglover Giant Schnauzers Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: West-Central Illinois Posts: 3,624 Rep Power: 177	I will say that with my military dog handling background, it has been a hard road for me to learn how to train in a more positive manner. I am still on that road. Yes, women are more intuitive, and sensitive. We just seem to "get it". I watch every move that my dogs make, (more than one "movement" LOL) and I think its just a woman thing. Greg doesn't understand why I am constantly watching the dogs, or with Elite every minute for 12 hours before she whelps. We just know. I sincerely hope he (Cesar) does not think that women are the sole cause of animal misbehavior. If he does, that is putting a seriously bad taste in my mouth. As for the dress....hhhmmmm.....I don't even own one!! RFLOL Maybe a wig and perfume? Some balloons? LOLOL I just don't think in Carlo's case his methods would work....he would get seriously hurt.