Caesar Millan!!!!

[Sugardog]

Oh no kidding.

And what goes on at his "psychology center" and his "pack" that we don't know about?

[Cassiepeia]

True.
The thing that annoys me, and this of course is me speaking as a dog owner/fanatic not a trainer (because I'm certainly and obviously not a trainer), is that he seems so black and white in his views. Everything is dominance and submission. Like there is no other reason a dog should have for doing anything.
And I don't understand where he got the idea that "dogs want to be submissive"???
In my completely novice opinion, dogs want to know where they stand...what their place is, not be submissive. No animal wants to be submissive. That would mean having someone/something dominate them, which is not a pleasant experience at all.

*sigh* Maybe I just don't understand dogs as well as he does.

Cass.

[gaddylovesdogs]

Cass, that woman is great!! I'll think I'm gonna google and see if she's on here in the US, I hope she is. I love that she's blunt - the fact that she actually told them that their dogs were little brats and that bringing another dog into it was a stupid idea.

[sammy]

Love the clips Cass!

I hadn't seen or heard of Victoria Stillwell- she's great! She did a great job in a terribly difficult situation-- imagine that the owner regained control without jerking, tsssting, shocking or rolling the dogs!

Potty training 4 adult dogs at once with all those nasty dynamics

I can't believe those parents lives in a house FULL of pee-- or wee is they called it

[D.Schäferhund]

Hi, have you read her book? (Victoria stilwell)
Is that a good one or just a "copy" of the episodes?

she seemed very interesting, might want to buy the book, but it has no reviews or something... If anyone knows about her book please speak up.

[rmci]

Originally Posted by Cassiepeia

Feel free to revive an old Cesar thread. LOL There are few down there buried deep. But I think it's all been said before.

Personally I like Victoria Stilwell, an english dog trainer, who also has her own show. She's wonderful. She uses positive reinforcment and clicker training. Basic methods, but they're so effective and easy for your average person to learn and use by watching the show. She's also very anti backyard breeder and puppymill (and therefore anti animals in petshops) and she's constantly trying to get across the message that dogs should be spayed/neutered if they're pets and they aren't fashion accessories. Which is something I really love about her. Her show is called "It's me or the dog!" if you ever manage to catch it.

Cass.

EDIT: You can find some of her shows on YouTube by searching for the title of her show.

Loved the YouTube clips. The chihuahua doing the agility run was the cutest thing
I'm not trying to cause a contraversy but how is making a loud noise "positive" training? Although you're not doing anything physical to the dog, you're still spooking it to correct it.

[sammy]

Originally Posted by rmci

Loved the YouTube clips. The chihuahua doing the agility run was the cutest thing
I'm not trying to cause a contraversy but how is making a loud noise "positive" training? Although you're not doing anything physical to the dog, you're still spooking it to correct it.

I don' t think there's any harm or anything "not positive" in making a noise to stop the dogs when they start to pee in the house.She didn't hurt or punish the dogs for peeing, she merely stopped them in the act the only way you can. the dogs certainly didn't look traumatised.

People seem to get a really skewed view of what "positive" or reward based training is. As Susan Garrett says "positive does NOT mean permissive" You do reward the behavior you want to see more of but you also need to stop the unwanted behavior from happening especially if it is self reinforcing or reinforced by the environment-- that doesn't mean you have to jerk, choke, shock or yell at a dog. The owner needs to make the "right" behavior work and the "wrong " behavior NOT work.

[GSD]

using a loud noise to startle the dog is in every bit the same exact thing as yelling or jerking or shocking. To the dog that is, to us we put our own spin on it to make it fit "our" model of what dog training should be.

I can raise my voice, give an appropriate jerk, or shock so that the dog is startled into stopping the bad behavior and not looking traumatised, Same as I could clap my hands loud enough for some dogs to completely shut down.

[Cassiepeia]

Originally Posted by D.Schäferhund

Hi, have you read her book? (Victoria stilwell)
Is that a good one or just a "copy" of the episodes?

she seemed very interesting, might want to buy the book, but it has no reviews or something... If anyone knows about her book please speak up.

Her book is very basic, it's for people who have no clue about training at all so I'm not sure it'd be useful to someone who already knows a fair bit. But for what it is, it's great.

That episode was an 'easy' episode. Usually she deals with far bigger problems then that. I found out that her DVD (at least the one sold down here in Aussieland) is the first two series of her show. I'm going to buy it. I just love it!

She's brilliant, I hope you guys get her over there sometime. I'd like to see her on Oprah.

Cass.

EDIT: About the loud noises...I don't see anything wrong with it. I still consider her a "postive" trainer. She uses a noise like that to stop animals doing things when the humans aren't around (taking things off tables...or in this case, peeing on their beds and the floor). It's not used with every dog and, from what I've seen, there are never humans in the room when it happens so the dog simply gets distracted. Perhaps it's the same idea as a shock collar, but I'd rather that then an electric shock. JMO of course.

[Sugardog]

The loud noise is a distraction, not a punishment. It doesn't cause any psychological damage to the dog, as a shock collar or collar pop would. Unless of course you have a dog that has been traumatized with loud noises in the past, in which case you would obviously find an alternative.

Think of it like this. Your busy typing away at your computer, your whole mind is set on what you are doing. Then somebody suddenly yells your name or drops a hard cover book on a hard wood floor. You jump and you immediatly stop what you are doing to see whats going on. It has not harmed you in any way, shape or form.....But it did get your attention and made you stop what you were doing. Shock collars and collar pops actually cause physical pain to the dog.

[Cassiepeia]

Well said Sugardog. I hadn't thought of it like that.

Cass.

[RedWolf]

Originally Posted by Cassiepeia

Oh that poor dog. Was that the Great Dane? I heard he did a similar thing to a GD who was afraid of the floor in a hallway or something? I'll try to find it on YouTube. Ack...no I shouldn't. It just frustrates me.

Cass.

There was one with a Great Dane who was afraid of the linoleum in the owner's kitchen, and he dragged the dog to the middle of the floor and forced him to stay there.

[Cassiepeia]

Originally Posted by RedWolf

There was one with a Great Dane who was afraid of the linoleum in the owner's kitchen, and he dragged the dog to the middle of the floor and forced him to stay there.

Oh yeah, I think that was the one I was thinking of. I remember something about the floor being lino.

Cass.

[Sugardog]

Well said Sugardog. I hadn't thought of it like that.

Thanks

I saw the great dane one too. Thats basically what he did was force the dog onto the floor. The poor dog was actually shaking and had his tail inbetween his legs

He's really lucky he didn't damage that dog even more. Flooding doesn't work half the time with dogs.

[GSD]

Originally Posted by Sugardog

The loud noise is a distraction, not a punishment. It doesn't cause any psychological damage to the dog, as a shock collar or collar pop would. Unless of course you have a dog that has been traumatized with loud noises in the past, in which case you would obviously find an alternative.

Think of it like this. Your busy typing away at your computer, your whole mind is set on what you are doing. Then somebody suddenly yells your name or drops a hard cover book on a hard wood floor. You jump and you immediatly stop what you are doing to see whats going on. It has not harmed you in any way, shape or form.....But it did get your attention and made you stop what you were doing. Shock collars and collar pops actually cause physical pain to the dog.

according to YOU. Like I said, it is the same thing to a dog, people just like to spin it so it fits "their" model of training.

It's easy to throw those analogies out there. Let's say you're typing away on the computer listening to an Ipod, suddenly someone drops a book or yells your name, you don't hear it, they tap you on the shoulder and get your attention. They haven't harmed you in any way shape or form... BUT it did get your attetion and made you stop what you are doing. I can play this game all day long if you'd like.

Shock collars and collar pops can cause physical pain and have "bad" effects on a dog if they're used in a way they aren't supposed to be. Same as some dogs that are really sensitive to loud noises can completely shut down from them, it may not be physical, but it sure is psychological. It's the same premise as the throw chains etc, except throw chains are now very frowned upon, but clapping is OK because it seems "better" in your mind. In reality they are the same thing.