Border Collies

[TribalRats]

My daughter is is going total Jr. this year and does not want to show Rat Terriers. She loves our dogs however they are just not what floats her boat, she believes dogs should have more hair. Silly girl. We have one position open in the house so discussions have begun as to what she would like to show. Currently she is interested in learning more about border collies. She has known two in her life and he has loved them both, however she has never lived with and or trained one so......any thoughts, ideas or suggestions on breeds to research? We suggested Dobes and she vetoed, great Dane...considering but most likely will Vito. Suggestions?

[Crossfire Bulldogs]

Honestly, if it were me I'd still start her off with what you already have, we all know how fickle kids can be at times and who knows where her interest may be a month from now.

If she can show juniors with the ratties and does well / her interest still remains then why not let her decide more when she begins to see how the others are handled / talks to other juniors and gets more of a feeling for how things are in the ring? jmo

[TribalRats]

I agree completely witht he fickleness of the young. Hence the negotiations and research. She would not be in the position to make a choice on a dog until the end of this show season. Which would give her the opportunity to meet more Jr.s with different breeds. However you know how I am about my research. Must start in advance that way i can read as much on which ever way we end up going.
If we do decide to bring on another breed eventually it has to be one we all agree on as I have no illusions about her being the primary care giver.

[Shalva]

Border Collies are the "fad" dog of the day and in my opinion I don't think anyone should have them who doesnt have sheep or something for them to heard. This is a dog that requires alot of training and a job to do and is not going to be happy to just hang out in the house.

I agree wtih Crossfire that she should show what you have and save her money..... if she is successful and proves herself then great (I still wouldn't have a border collie) and you can entertain a different breed later....

If you are willing to entertain another breed then it would have to be a dog that got along well with your small dogs... and she likes hair.... so what about a Corgi or a PBGV..... or an english cocker...... possibly an english setter..... I should also say there are lots of juniors handling flat coats and because its a smaller breed are successful in not only the junior ring but the regular breed ring and its an owner handled breed....
just my thoughts for tonight

S (who has nothing against border collies in the right home)

[PitBullie09]

I kinda disagree about the sheep thing. They are good for agility, flyball and alot of other things. If she is going to do something other than just show them them like agility or something that provides lots of exercise then a Border Collie would be fine. But the are herders and need LOTS of exercise and also, they are very smart

I have a Border ColliexStaffordshire Terrier

[TribalRats]

Great advice Shalva and my argument against a border collie.
We do NOT have sheep or anything for it to herd other then Ratties. I told Cass that it would take more time then she has to give in the average day to keep the BC exercised and make make a BC truly happy. She is a respectful kid and trusts what I tell her.
She and I will look into the other breeds you suggested. I had an Irish setter when I was younger, WONDERFUL dog. I would like to keep with a shorter coated dog so should the decision be made that we add another breed to the herd I think I will keep to the shorter haired breeds.
We have all the time in the world as she is no where near ready for this. There are many hurdles to be jumped though before she has proven herself enough to weigh in heavily on a BIG family decision.
I will say that she is Very responsible, She checks and cleans crates every morning before school (when necessary) assists in the feeding and training schedules. She is getting there how ever she has a ways to go yet.
I do not know any other breeds well enough myself to know who would and would not get along well with the Rats, so I see many visits to breeders in our future should we decide to pursue it.
For now we will be training a blind Rattie who is coming to us on Friday, I can not wait to meet this little guy.
We also have some refining to do on our Rats as they have been out of the ring for the past couple of months.
I would just like to get into the research part as I find the reading on different breeds gives her a better perspective on our breed of choice as well as opens up her world to others.
Thanks againf or the input, as well as the suggestions.

[annie_so_pink]

Hmmmm...How about a Labrador Retriever? Labs are awesome! Or if you're daughter wants a dog with "more hair"...how about a Golden Retriever?

[BellFounder]

100% agree with Shalva - border collies are working dogs and need to be in a home where they WILL work. Herding not perhaps totaly necessary as competitive flyball, agility, obediance etc are all suitable occupations for border collies but whoever gets them should be serious about the sport and prepared to spend many hours training and exercising their dog.

Gordon setters are beautiful things. We had one when i was a kid and it was the best dog i've ever had.
For "easier" dogs with a bit more hair perhaps she would like to consider clumber spaniels, curly coated retrievers, or shetland sheepdogs.

[Rip's Girl]

First off, good for her for getting into juniors! This will be my learning year (I won't have much of a 'career' in juniors, I'll probably age out before I get very good at handling but it'll be nice preparation for the breed ring) and I'll be showing my Border Collie.
Once you get farther into her search, if she's still interested in the BC, I think I would let her hang around with Border Collies at shows and see what she thinks. I don't doubt that she is responsible and knows her dogs, but even to a kid raised with dogs, a Border Collie can be a bit too intense. I wouldn't say they are hyper when they get enough mental stimulation (I swear, you cannot wear a Border Collie out by running it. You have to make it think.) but they are not low-key dogs by any means. They're a challenging breed, but very rewarding once you learn how to "push their buttons".

Does she know the kind of grooming that goes into a coated breed? Some breeds like Border Collies are hairy but very easy to groom. (Usually it is just feet that need trimming, everything else is left completely natural and there is no sculpting allowed) Setters are marvelous juniors dogs, but a bit high maintainance as far as grooming goes, I think there is some clipping involved.

Does she have any size restrictions? I was honestly thinking a Papillon might be a fun breed for her to start out with (Outgoing, spunky temperament, easily trainable and it would fit in with the Ratties as far as size goes) Setters are also an awesome suggestion, and if you want a short-haired dog, how about a Pointer? I know a lot of Juniors with Goldens and they love them, there isn't a lot of difficult grooming involved with them either, it's just a bit time consuming.

[Cassiepeia]

I second the Irish Setter. Fantastic dogs and not too much grooming involved either (I love all the setters).
Cocker Spaniels (english) are wonderful dogs too, spaniels in general are lovely dogs (I particularly like the Clumber Spaniels). What about a CKCS?

I was going to put in a vote for the Kelpie, but after checking I noticed they aren't recognised over there. Pity, they're amazing dogs and make great pets (as long as they get plenty of exercise).

Good luck and keep us posted. I'd love to know what poor pooch gets stuck with the ratties. Hehehehe! Just kidding.

Cass.

[Shalva]

Originally Posted by Rip's Girl

I know a lot of Juniors with Goldens and they love them, there isn't a lot of difficult grooming involved with them either, it's just a bit time consuming.

have you groomed a golden lately..... there is alot more to grooming a golden than feet and ears.... when I trim my goldens for show....I trim face, saddle, britches, feet, hocks, tail set, underbelly, feathering. I lighten up the mane. make sure the stop looks correct, I pull hair from the neck..... a trim for a golden going into the ring can take a good couple hours..... they don't look trimmed but let me tell you they are trimmed.

[TribalRats]

Herding not perhaps totally necessary as competitive fly ball, agility, obedience etc

She is doing obedience this season with one of our rats and intends on doing obedience with her own dog as well once we decide on a breed, or decide to simply stick with the Rats for her.
Fly ball is something we would like to get into with the Rats as well. Unfortunately the breed clubs around here do not offer it in there events.
I am in the process of getting a breed club off the ground out here and this sport will finally be offered here.

Rip's Girl what a GREAT post! Very informative with a ton of info! Lots to consider. I do think that with all of the responsibilities she has to the dogs she is currently showing and training (with me of course) that a BC would be a bit too much dog for her.
Papillions are SO cute however they are so small and we have a toddler so I would like to stick with a little bit more rough and tumble of a dog...nothing against Papillions.
As for the Golden's, she has always had a love of Golden's however as Shalva already stated there is simply too much grooming involved in Golden's for her. That is her breed goal as an adult however while she is young and still learning time management the almighty Golden will have to wait until she is grown, educated and on her own.
Currently we have a 5 month old male RT that she is training for show and in basic ob. she will take him through this show season (we are hoping they continue to expand on the great bond they already have) and we will see how she comes out on the other side. It's allot of work and very time consuming. She showed last year however she only got competitive the last couple of months of the season, not she has the show bug and is chomping at the bit for Feb when we get to attend our first show of the season.
My husband and I would like to see her stick with Guinness, he is by far the best of our dogs (conformationally and temperament wise) and everything we are breeding for in our lines. I think there is a good chance that she will end up sticking with him, especially after all of the hard work and the wins they are sure to experience this year.

Ultimately which dog she ends up with or what breed is our decision, after all we are the parents. For now she is researching the Setters, I think the research regardless of the out come is very educational and informative.
So far she has liked the Ratties best and I have a feeling that she will end up deciding on Guinness in the end. However the search is fun and the power she is feeling at being involved int he decision is good for her.
Thats again all of you for the GREAT advice and food for thought!
I love this place, and you all remind me why every day!
OK done being sappy...off to chase the toddler.

[Rip's Girl]

Originally Posted by Shalva

have you groomed a golden lately..... there is alot more to grooming a golden than feet and ears.... when I trim my goldens for show....I trim face, saddle, britches, feet, hocks, tail set, underbelly, feathering. I lighten up the mane. make sure the stop looks correct, I pull hair from the neck..... a trim for a golden going into the ring can take a good couple hours..... they don't look trimmed but let me tell you they are trimmed.

Wow, I never knew so much trimming went into Goldens. Interesting, the girl I know with a Golden as her juniors dog just "neatens up" everything and trims up the feet, hocks and feathering on the forelegs. Perhaps she's not doing it right, the way they normally do in the breed ring. Your Golden is a gorgeous dog, btw.

Tribal, well if I lived closer I would see if she could handle my Border Collie LOL (the problem is that I think the junior has to co-own the dog) That's understandable about the Papillon. They are very delicate little guys, they just don't know it. Good luck to her with Guinness, and on her breed search!

[sammy]

Border collies aren't "hyper" they are INTENSE.

I totally disagree that they should only be owned by people who use them for herding. My dogs love to play frisbee, ball, go hiking / exploring, they excel at rally-o, agility and hopefully will at flyball when I find time for that one For me they are the perfect dog and I live in a small city and I sure don't have anything to herd. My dogs are both also wonderful with children and have an "off switch" in the house. they know what is work time and when it's time to just hand out and they are fine for that.
That being said- if they weren't well trained and in continuous activities it would be a different story. Herding dogs certainly aren't for everyone and if you won't have 2 hours a day to spend working them and time and skill to train them then they are a disaster.

If your daughter likes border collies and you think she can put in the time and training, she might do well trying to find a more easy going aussie. There seems to be greater range in their temperments and they are flashier for the show ring. My other thought if she wants a good looking hairy dog was a rough collie or sheltie. What's cuter than a blue merle sheltie or aussie?
oh- also my aussie hardly sheds at all - except when she's blowing her coat. Day to day shedding is minimal. I guess I'm just saying don't rule them out for the hair- my dogs get brushed once a week , my floors get vacuumed once a week- not a big deal at all.